Sad heaven, sad life- that’s a hard sell!

[Damien the Leper]

4 minutes ago, Balaam said:

It's absurd only if you know how miserable you are.

The statement quite is presumptuous, asinine and self righteous. Attempting to take such a statement seriously is a lesson in futility.

[mrmarklin]

 "because we believe he would be happier if he understood what Church is all about and dedicated his life to it 100%"

 

I don't believe this.  Not all of us can be 100% ers, nor should we be.  Some people have a taste for churchwork, and more power to them.

But many think their kids should be and seemingly raise kids in what I call a sterile environment.  No TV on Sunday.  No playing with kids, or having friends outside the Church.  The Church activities are the only ones allowed.  Spend Sunday reading scriptures......or even on other days!  etc. etc. etc.

This is a dull life and not necessary.  We let our kids play on Sunday.  They had friends at times they spent weekends with, including overriding some Church activities.  Sometimes going out to lunch after Church was a high treat.  We just didn't get caught up in a lot of Pharisaic notions of what it was to be a 100% Mormon.

The Church is a volunteer organization, and teaching kids to "give back" like doing priesthood duties or service projects is what should be an emphasis.  ie. helping others.  Just going to church alone doesn't cut it.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Hearing you describe your feelings as "weirdly rebellious," I don't think this applies to your situation, but for some others who struggle to feel permission to have peace with a child's decision to leave, I wonder if some of it is our wariness of being judged as not being committed to the gospel ourselves if we still express happiness with our kids who stop believing?  Like a way to stave off the "well, if sharon really had a testimony she wouldn't be ok with her son going inactive" judgement stuff? 

Like those people who are judgmental of someone who gets married "too soon" after a spouse died, I bet there are members who react similarly to when how a parent responds when a kid leaves.  So much of our actions and feelings are connected to how we think we are going to be perceived by others.  Maybe being openly upset and sad and "sackcloth and ashes" can seem like a shield against judgey-mcjudgersons for some members.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Rain said:

Yes.  I can see how that especially applies in my feelings as well.  When my brother first started drinking a group from my high school started talking about him, apparently not know we were siblings.  They were talking about how bad my parents must be to have a son that was doing things like that.   I think that plays into my feelings of how other people must view me as a parent sometimes.

 

These really helped me understand a little better, how one could feel "rebellious" or self-conscious to some degree about feeling proud of a ex-member loved one. What you guys describe isn't a natural impulse or concern for me. I think my family was so obviously the village oddballs growing up on just about every front (including visibly), that I got a little used to ignoring or brushing off people's reactions and expectations for me. I'm aware when something is socially unorthodox...but I'm likely to still do it if I want to and at least share my thoughts/feelings about it with people I trust. It's not from a fear of rebellion, but moreso not really wanting or caring for certain folk's inputs. (Besides part of my enjoys pushing people's social conventions and buttons...it's fun to watch the squirms and gasps😈). And my husband is even less caring about the opinions of others when thinking or deciding on something. 

I can really picture that being the case for others though, especially who are more socially conscious and/or who may have "fit the mold" a little more comfortably than I did/do. From what I've seen it's not comfortable to stand out for those who haven't had to.  

With luv,

BD

Edited January 12, 2023 by BlueDreams

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Yes.  I can see how that especially applies in my feelings as well.  When my brother first started drinking a group from my high school started talking about him, apparently not know we were siblings.  They were talking about how bad my parents must be to have a son that was doing things like that.   I think that plays into my feelings of how other people must view me as a parent sometimes.

 

No one thinks they know more about being a parent than someone who doesn't have any kids.  I think that's true for adults and kids (though kids get more of a pass with me since they don't have all their brains yet).

[mrmarklin]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@RAD DAD

Hmmm ...  "Bogged down," or "free"?  Let's see.  If I:

• Obey the Law of Chastity, I'm free from the prospect of bringing a child into the world for whom I might not be fully prepared to care and to provide, free from the prospect of contracting a s*xually transmitted infection, and, while often, marriage is no picnic, free from the prospect of dealing with the problems that often result from being in a noncommitted/noncommittal relationship.
• Obey the Word of Wisdom, I'm free from the prospect, potentially, of acquiring an addiction.
• Repent of my sins, I can have the peace of knowing that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is active, fully, in my life.  (In connection with "freedom," see John 8:36).
• Pay a full tithe and a generous fast offering, I can have the peace and satisfaction of knowing that I am helping to build the Kingdom of God and am helping to see to the temporal needs of my brothers and sisters.
• Obey the words of Living Prophets, I can have the other forms of peace mentioned herein; and however I might feel about counsel they might give or anything they might ask of me, I can, at least, have faith that they have my best interests, both here and hereafter, at heart.
• Read and apply the counsel that the Lord has given to other prophets as revealed in the Standard Works, I am promised a good deal both here and hereafter (but definitely in the latter if, for whatever reason, not in the former).
• Attend and participate in meetings of the Church of Jesus Christ, I can obtain and maintain peace by renewing my covenants, and can "mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and stand as a witness of Christ" (See Mosiah 18:8-10).
• Likewise, I can receive comfort and succor from my fellow Saints as they, too, do the things mentioned immediately above (as well as others) for me.
• Live the Gospel of Jesus Christ otherwise, I am promised "peace in this life and eternal life in the world to come" (Doctrine and Covenants 59:23).
• Indeed, it would seem, consistent with Luke 6:38, that whatever I am asked to give in this life, I am well compensated by a return that is "pressed down, shaken together, and running over."  As Paul said, "Eye hath not seen, neither hath ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him."  1 Corinthians 2:9.
• And so on, ad infinitum?

And yet, somehow, this is some sort of a "raw deal" or not worth it, or, somehow, I'm not "free" or am less free?     Okay.  I'm not seeing it, but ... if you say so ... Okay.

Thanks for this.  IME most people that leave the church want license ie. "freedom" to do what they want.  This would cover a full gamut of sins, including not keeping the Sabbath holy.  Face it:  Church is boring.:-)

[Peacefully]

59 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Before resigning my membership, a former bishop/friend told me that if I left that I'd be so miserable that I wouldn't know how miserable I'd be. I simply chuckled and not out of disrespect but because of the absolute absurdity of the statement. 

Bishops can say some absurd things. I hope you aren’t miserable:) 

[mrmarklin]

1 hour ago, Damien the Leper said:

Before resigning my membership, a former bishop/friend told me that if I left that I'd be so miserable that I wouldn't know how miserable I'd be. I simply chuckled and not out of disrespect but because of the absolute absurdity of the statement. 

Technically, he is correct, of course.  But enjoy your life!:-)

[MustardSeed]

18 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Thanks for this.  IME most people that leave the church want license ie. "freedom" to do what they want.  This would cover a full gamut of sins, including not keeping the Sabbath holy.  Face it:  Church is boring.:-)

This belief perpetuates the very issue I’m addressing. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Balaam said:

Run away from a group that professes they want to become perfect?  Why not just give them some pointers about how to do that?  Why run away as fast as you can?  If you're going to leave then why not just walk away?

Perfection presumably includes creating sockpuppet accounts at boards you have been banned from?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Thanks for this.  IME most people that leave the church want license ie. "freedom" to do what they want.  This would cover a full gamut of sins, including not keeping the Sabbath holy.  Face it:  Church is boring.:-)

I think most people who leave sincerely don't have a testimony of it.  They were never converted, or were and then lost it.  I think their actions change after they leave because they no longer have a reason to continue to do or not do certain things.  

I think for most people, who were active before they left anyway, their beliefs informed their actions when they were members and their beliefs continue to inform their actions after they leave.  But the beliefs have changed and so their actions will in some ways as well. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think most people who leave sincerely don't have a testimony of it.  They were never converted, or were and then lost it.  I think their actions change after they leave because they no longer have a reason to continue to do or not do certain things.  

I think for most people, who were active before they left anyway, their beliefs informed their actions when they were members and their beliefs continue to inform their actions after they leave.  But the beliefs have changed and so their actions will in some ways as well. 

If I leave my testimony might be gone but I am definitely leaving primarily for the sin and depravity just so everyone knows in advance. I like the sin and depravity.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

No one thinks they know more about being a parent than someone who doesn't have any kids.  I think that's true for adults and kids (though kids get more of a pass with me since they don't have all their brains yet).

I think it also applies to personalities, disabilities, experiences of kids as well.  If your kid has never been one of the tough ones you might think you know more than parents who have the tough kids 

[Damien the Leper]

10 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Technically, he is correct, of course.  But enjoy your life!:-)

My life is amazing as a Catholic. Your arrogance is a childish detractor.

[Damien the Leper]

10 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Bishops can say some absurd things. I hope you aren’t miserable:) 

I'm not. I feel as though who I was when I first started posting here was the miserable me. It's been a journey. Calm, Blue Bell, Scott, Smac, etc. are a rich history of learning and humbling for myself. Mormonism just wasn't the right fit. And they've been kind and patient despite our disagreements. I am truly blessed.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

I think it also applies to personalities, disabilities, experiences of kids as well.  If your kid has never been one of the tough ones you might think you know more than parents who have the tough kids 

Oh definitely. I think it even applies to ages of kids. Like how when we had toddlers we might have gotten a little judgmental a time or two about how another parent was dealing with a teenager.

I remember reading something once where a parent said that they thought they were just the most amazing parent….until they had a second child. They hadn’t realized that it was the personality of their firstborn that was making life so easy, not all of their awesome skills.

The second child changed their thinking, because their parenting style stayed the same and the outcome definitely didn’t. 😂

[Kenngo1969]

Having kids will humble you: If it hasn't yet, have another one!    

P.S.:  And if the foregoing rule of thumb is accurate, given the size of some of our families, some of us are in desperate need of being humbled!  

Edited January 13, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree, hoping that someone else dies so you can get your child to do what you want is really messed up.  But to be fair, it doesn't sound like you know of anyone who has actually hoped that.  No reason to make up scenarios to be appalled about.  Plenty to be appalled about in the world without inventing stuff.   

Not sure why you're assuming I'm making up scenarios. While a person may not outright say "I hope someone dies so that you are humbled", them saying that they want God to humble you enough to do X is equivalent, just a little more PC.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Not sure why you're assuming I'm making up scenarios. While a person may not outright say "I hope someone dies so that you are humbled", them saying that they want God to humble you enough to do X is equivalent, just a little more PC.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree that someone hoping God will humble another person is the equivalent of them saying they hope God kill somebody so that the other person can suffer enough to do what they want them to do.

I don’t personally see that as a given. Seems like a really big assumption based on opinion.

For example, my son is currently serving a mission and he loves it. He’s doing amazing. I also know his weaknesses, and I frequently pray that God will help him to be humble because he has a tendency to be a little self-righteous because he sees things very black-and-white. While I’m good with God humbling him that certainly doesn’t mean that I want God to kill somebody or for him to get in a giant wreck or for some other really horrible thing to happen.  I just want him to realize that he’s not right all the time, and that other peoples perspectives matter.

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

just want him to realize that he’s not right all the time, and that other peoples perspectives matter.

Those blessings are certainly possible without going to extremes.  It may never occur to someone that God would answer their prayer in such a tragic way.  If it doesn’t occur to them, how can you assume praying for humility in another means hoping someone’s dies, etc.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

18 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Thanks for this.  IME most people that leave the church want license ie. "freedom" to do what they want.  This would cover a full gamut of sins, including not keeping the Sabbath holy.  Face it:  Church is boring.:-)

Not me! I love everything about not waking up feeling guilty for sinning. I don't keep the Sabbath Day Holy though because I don't worship at a church or take the Sacrament. But all other sinning, my heart couldn't handle the guilt. 

[sunstoned]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:25 AM, teddyaware said:

Lehi’s family was utterly torn apart when some of his children rejected Jesus Christ and his gospel. What follows are Nephi’s thoughts on the matter at the time when the family split became irrevocable. His is a message of sadness mingled with great faith and hope. What else should it be?

15 And upon ^athese I ^bwrite the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul ^cdelighteth in the scriptures, and my heart ^dpondereth them, and writeth them for the ^elearning and the profit of my children.

16 Behold, my ^asoul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my ^bheart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great ^agoodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O ^bwretched man that I am! Yea, my heart ^csorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily ^abeset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have ^atrusted.

20 My God hath been my ^asupport; he hath led me through mine ^bafflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming  my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine ^aenemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me ^aknowledge by ^bvisions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty ^aprayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been ^acarried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath ^avisited men in so much ^bmercy, ^cwhy should my ^dheart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I ^ayield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to ^btemptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my ^cpeace and afflict my soul? Why am I ^dangry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer ^adroop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the ^benemy of my soul.

29 Do not ^aanger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

30 Rejoice, O my ^aheart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the ^brock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou ^aredeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of ^bsin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my ^aheart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may ^bwalk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy ^arighteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine ^benemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have ^atrusted in thee, and I will ^btrust in thee forever. I will not put my ^ctrust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his ^dtrust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give ^aliberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ^bask ^cnot amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the ^drock of my ^erighteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen?

seriously?  How about stepping down from you righteous pedestal and actually addressing the issue,