Sad heaven, sad life- that’s a hard sell!

[BlueDreams]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

Obviously when families follow the program and all of the children are active and all of them go on missions and all of them marry in the temple, there is tremendous joy to be had. It’s a fabulous plan and the promise of the ultimate outcome is nirvana. 
 

The likelihood of this scenario in todays world is low.  The more children you have, I assume the more likely you are to experience a child refusing church life at some point.  (No cfr, just assumptions made from observations.). 
 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.   My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church. 
 

I haven't heard a cogent message on this one in the church. What happens in the now and here after seems to have about 8 different reactions and sentiments tied to it. And each of these 8 will have their own list of scriptures and doctrinal discussions they had to back up their sentiment. The basics of what we all have is being a believing member has blessings to it, after we die just about everyone gets a place in heaven based on what we did with the light we had. Everything else is based on the blurry details in both of these. 

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them? It’s my belief that our “beliefs about our beliefs” are what serve to alienate children and parents when children bow out. 
 

It's not normal to sell sadness in believing...but I do think it happens. For example I strongly believed by my 20's at least that there is power in being sealed to a partner and living according to that covenant....I also was sealed to no one and had no concrete answers to how my family of birth would even relate like in the afterlife. If not sorrow, it definitely came with negative emotions...usually tied with the deficits between belief and reality. 

I think for some, there absolutely can be. I had a friend who left (it was a surprise to her and me) and I asked for her full journey in doing so. By the end I was certain she needed to leave to fully heal and was at peace with her decision being a good one for her. But this doesn't equally apply to everyone. I have a brother who left that I found out about around the same time. After this experience with the friend I hoped maybe there was sort of an affirming answer I could receive from God for him as well that would bring the same peace to my soul about his decision. But I got a very different answer from the same Spirit that drew me to believe in the rightness of my friend's decision. Though it came with a sense of peace, it also left me frustrated. 

Personally in general I probably land in-between these reactions you described. I have often been sad, at first especially. But not because I believe  in some form of eternal separation. Usually it's more to do with what I'd hoped to experience with them. Heaven is heaven and the relationship between the kingdoms is described as ministering one to the other. I have no fear that I've lost a sibling who's left, that I lose out in our relationships in the after. The one sibling I see as the most "lost" per se is also the one I have the least amount of respect and care for in the first place. He's a jerk (that's being nice). It makes sense he wouldn't participate in a church that doesn't value jerks in general. Honestly, having sorrow for him would probably be a spiritual improvement on my end I may need to take up none day. 

I think more realistically for many, bittersweet may be a more reasonable goal. As in there's parts that are sad and parts that can recognize this can still be good for the person ...at least over time.

For example, Along with the bros I mentioned, I have one other who's so far left. There are parts of me that saw it coming and was unsurprised when he started to own it. Part of me can recognize that he's been able to develop a healthy relationship with his g/f now wife, and found a good family experience he missed out on as a child from her side. He's in a good career field and is more himself in many ways. But I also know he's still struggling emotionally from past trauma from our shared family history. For me therapy helped, but God honestly did large swaths of the healing and faster. My bro's currently agnostic. I wish I could point him to all the things that healed me. That won't work for him...not now at least. For now I can insist he prioritize therapy in the near future. I don't know another emotion I can have but sorrow for my bro struggling with this deep pain he didn't ask for with less tools than I had to help heal from it. 

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

No, mainly for the reasons already mentioned. A few do, but higher ups certainly don't encourage it and have dissuaded it via examples and focus on loving those we disagree with. JW hierarchy for certain contexts strongly promotes shunning and distancing. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

 

[RAD DAD]

16 hours ago, Balaam said:

because we believe he would be happier if he understood what Church is all about and dedicated his life to it 100%

Maybe he understands what church is all about and he's happier outside the church, have you ever considered that? Your son might enjoy his individual freedom and doesn't want to be bogged down with what the church ask it's members to do, it's not for everyone. 

[Peacefully]

12 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Well God still hasn’t been able to do that for the third. 
 

I don’t see my children as rebellious.  They are good people.  They just don’t believe what our church teaches.  I could never want them to ascribe to something that feels wrong or bad- that’s not what I taught them to do.  Yet sometimes I feel rebellious myself for seeing them so differently than it seems so many others of my religion see them. You’ll never hear me say the word “wayward” regarding them.  Nor “lost”.   

Same here. I also hear members saying that people leave because they want to sin. I think that way of thinking is so simplistic and judgmental. My son left when he was in his teens. As I said in another post, I am proud of the man he has become. As far as I can tell, he is not living a life of sin nor does he want to. Same with my daughter. She left in her twenties, and it wasn’t an overnight decision because she just wanted to party. She thinks things through before making decisions. I am proud to have raised a daughter who thinks for herself and I support her reasons for leaving. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Peacefully

[Kenngo1969]

@RAD DAD

Hmmm ...  "Bogged down," or "free"?  Let's see.  If I:

• Obey the Law of Chastity, I'm free from the prospect of bringing a child into the world for whom I might not be fully prepared to care and to provide, free from the prospect of contracting a s*xually transmitted infection, and, while often, marriage is no picnic, free from the prospect of dealing with the problems that often result from being in a noncommitted/noncommittal relationship.
• Obey the Word of Wisdom, I'm free from the prospect, potentially, of acquiring an addiction.
• Repent of my sins, I can have the peace of knowing that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is active, fully, in my life.  (In connection with "freedom," see John 8:36).
• Pay a full tithe and a generous fast offering, I can have the peace and satisfaction of knowing that I am helping to build the Kingdom of God and am helping to see to the temporal needs of my brothers and sisters.
• Obey the words of Living Prophets, I can have the other forms of peace mentioned herein; and however I might feel about counsel they might give or anything they might ask of me, I can, at least, have faith that they have my best interests, both here and hereafter, at heart.
• Read and apply the counsel that the Lord has given to other prophets as revealed in the Standard Works, I am promised a good deal both here and hereafter (but definitely in the latter if, for whatever reason, not in the former).
• Attend and participate in meetings of the Church of Jesus Christ, I can obtain and maintain peace by renewing my covenants, and can "mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and stand as a witness of Christ" (See Mosiah 18:8-10).
• Likewise, I can receive comfort and succor from my fellow Saints as they, too, do the things mentioned immediately above (as well as others) for me.
• Live the Gospel of Jesus Christ otherwise, I am promised "peace in this life and eternal life in the world to come" (Doctrine and Covenants 59:23).
• Indeed, it would seem, consistent with Luke 6:38, that whatever I am asked to give in this life, I am well compensated by a return that is "pressed down, shaken together, and running over."  As Paul said, "Eye hath not seen, neither hath ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him."  1 Corinthians 2:9.
• And so on, ad infinitum?

And yet, somehow, this is some sort of a "raw deal" or not worth it, or, somehow, I'm not "free" or am less free?     Okay.  I'm not seeing it, but ... if you say so ... Okay.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Same here. I also hear members saying that people leave because they want to sin. I think that way of thinking is so simplistic and judgmental. My son left when he was in his teens. As I said in another post, I am proud of the man he has become. As far as I can tell, he is not living a life of sin nor does he want to. Same with my daughter. She left in her twenties, and it wasn’t an overnight decision because she just wanted to party. She thinks things through before making decisions. I am proud to have raised a daughter who thinks for herself and I support her reasons for leaving. 

Sometimes living in such a top down or ? orthodoxy religion only makes someone follow the rules outwardly but makes some go a little bonkers when they can't handle it and sin worse than if they weren't in such a orthodoxy religion. And how do we know if the religion that we've had spoon fed and be force fed from birth is the right one? Revelation isn't always a reliable way to go, because we get good feelings or feel the spirit watching or listening to good music or film or performance. So if our children choose a different way and they are doing things in the world that show love for others without being told what service to do etc but all on their own how more authentic is that? My son who served a mission and then found things that were not true that he'd taught were true on his mission got to him. He eventually resigned and he and his wife have been on humanitarian missions such as teaching at a Thailand school that is a refugee camp etc. I love the man he's become. And then you get the men I've seen in my own wards that were in the bishopric that cheated on their wives, 3 different scenarios. 

[Peacefully]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sometimes living in such a top down or ? orthodoxy religion only makes someone follow the rules outwardly but makes some go a little bonkers when they can't handle it and sin worse than if they weren't in such a orthodoxy religion. And how do we know if the religion that we've had spoon fed and be force fed from birth is the right one? Revelation isn't always a reliable way to go, because we get good feelings or feel the spirit watching or listening to good music or film or performance. So if our children choose a different way and they are doing things in the world that show love for others without being told what service to do etc but all on their own how more authentic is that? My son who served a mission and then found things that were not true that he'd taught were true on his mission got to him. He eventually resigned and he and his wife have been on humanitarian missions such as teaching at a Thailand school that is a refugee camp etc. I love the man he's become. And then you get the men I've seen in my own wards that were in the bishopric that cheated on their wives, 3 different scenarios. 

I can believe with my whole heart that this church is true. I can be temple-worthy and do all within my power to be the best Latter-day Saint I can be. What I can’t do is give someone else my testimony. I can teach it, I can share it, and maybe even lend it out for a time, but they must get their own. If the don’t then I respect that. Perhaps they have a different path to walk. 

[Tacenda]

48 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I can believe with my whole heart that this church is true. I can be temple-worthy and do all within my power to be the best Latter-day Saint I can be. What I can’t do is give someone else my testimony. I can teach it, I can share it, and maybe even lend it out for a time, but they must get their own. If the don’t then I respect that. Perhaps they have a different path to walk. 

I love the person you are when I read your posts! I do see that if I'd still held my belief before my faith crisis, I'd probably be like some of these parents that worry that their children won't be with them in the celestial kingdom and not be with God. It might show my true colors and make me act in a way I sure am glad I avoided, I might even have children that wouldn't want to be around me much. Glad you are the good kind of LDS.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Tacenda

[HappyJackWagon]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have a lesbian friend who was basically shunned by her LDS family to encourage her to return. Sadly said family didn’t realize how toxic they were and after the initial shock and withdrawal she really has no desire to come back to their expectations and passive aggressive attempts to manipulate her into doing things. Her mom meanwhile is expecting her to come back crying any day now…..yep……..any day now.

There's a concept that sometimes people need to be humbled before they will return. I've heard from very close friends/family this sentiment exactly. I've heard parents hope that one of their children will be humbled by God. So how is one humbled by God? Often times it's by some calamity or hardship that they must endure. So, in essence some families wish for a calamity or hardship upon their loved one so that they will return. IMO that is severely messed up.

[Peacefully]

51 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I love the person you are when I read your posts! I do see that if I'd still held my belief before my faith crisis, I'd probably be like some of these parents that worry that their children won't be with them in the celestial kingdom and not be with God. It might show my true colors and make me act in a way I sure am glad I avoided, I might even have children that wouldn't want to be around me much. Glad you are the good kind of LDS.

Thank you:) I always enjoy reading your posts. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Same here. I also hear members saying that people leave because they want to sin. I think that way of thinking is so simplistic and judgmental. My son left when he was in his teens. As I said in another post, I am proud of the man he has become. As far as I can tell, he is not living a life of sin nor does he want to. Same with my daughter. She left in her twenties, and it wasn’t an overnight decision because she just wanted to party. She thinks things through before making decisions. I am proud to have raised a daughter who thinks for herself and I support her reasons for leaving. 

I think that's where it can be rough and where some people might not understand each other.  Some children have their lives in order when they leave and afterwards.  Some definitely don't.   So I think sometimes when their lives are falling apart then it might be hard to separate church from it in parent's minds. 

I know for a long time my parent's really struggled with church with my brother.  He was an alcoholic, addict, felon and often homeless.  After it went on so long though church was much less important to them - just being able to make it and be happy in this life became their focus. 

[The Nehor]

48 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There's a concept that sometimes people need to be humbled before they will return. I've heard from very close friends/family this sentiment exactly. I've heard parents hope that one of their children will be humbled by God. So how is one humbled by God? Often times it's by some calamity or hardship that they must endure. So, in essence some families wish for a calamity or hardship upon their loved one so that they will return. IMO that is severely messed up.

It is kind of seeing it as an addiction and the belief that you have to hit “rock bottom”.

The irony is that is usually not how it works with those who do come back. Instead they are looking for something fulfilling and remembering old good times or seeking greater peace. It is rarer that people come back because they are broken and their life is a complete wreck.

In some cases baked into the idea that the ‘apostate’ must suffer is the desire for vindication. For God to prove they were right and the apostate was wrong. With bad people this desire is more blatant. For some it is a small impulse. In the best it isn’t there at all.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@RAD DAD

Hmmm ...  "Bogged down," or "free"?  Let's see.  If I:

• Obey the Law of Chastity, I'm free from the prospect of bringing a child into the world for whom I might not be fully prepared to care and to provide, free from the prospect of contracting a s*xually transmitted infection, and, while often, marriage is no picnic, free from the prospect of dealing with the problems that often result from being in a noncommitted/noncommittal relationship.
• Obey the Word of Wisdom, I'm free from the prospect, potentially, of acquiring an addiction.
• Repent of my sins, I can have the peace of knowing that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is active, fully, in my life.  (In connection with "freedom," see John 8:36).
• Pay a full tithe and a generous fast offering, I can have the peace and satisfaction of knowing that I am helping to build the Kingdom of God and am helping to see to the temporal needs of my brothers and sisters.
• Obey the words of Living Prophets, I can have the other forms of peace mentioned herein; and however I might feel about counsel they might give or anything they might ask of me, I can, at least, have faith that they have my best interests, both here and hereafter, at heart.
• Read and apply the counsel that the Lord has given to other prophets as revealed in the Standard Works, I am promised a good deal both here and hereafter (but definitely in the latter if, for whatever reason, not in the former).
• Attend and participate in meetings of the Church of Jesus Christ, I can obtain and maintain peace by renewing my covenants, and can "mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and stand as a witness of Christ" (See Mosiah 18:8-10).
• Likewise, I can receive comfort and succor from my fellow Saints as they, too, do the things mentioned immediately above (as well as others) for me.
• Live the Gospel of Jesus Christ otherwise, I am promised "peace in this life and eternal life in the world to come" (Doctrine and Covenants 59:23).
• Indeed, it would seem, consistent with Luke 6:38, that whatever I am asked to give in this life, I am well compensated by a return that is "pressed down, shaken together, and running over."  As Paul said, "Eye hath not seen, neither hath ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him."  1 Corinthians 2:9.
• And so on, ad infinitum?

And yet, somehow, this is some sort of a "raw deal" or not worth it, or, somehow, I'm not "free" or am less free?     Okay.  I'm not seeing it, but ... if you say so ... Okay.

Thanks for sharing!

[bluebell]

46 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There's a concept that sometimes people need to be humbled before they will return. I've heard from very close friends/family this sentiment exactly. I've heard parents hope that one of their children will be humbled by God. So how is one humbled by God? Often times it's by some calamity or hardship that they must endure. So, in essence some families wish for a calamity or hardship upon their loved one so that they will return. IMO that is severely messed up.

I think this is an offshoot of the "sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they can make better choices" concept that exists everywhere.   Kind of a Hail Mary play when you are out of options and you believe the stakes can't get any higher. 

I don't think it's severely messed up but I do think it's misguided and self-centered. 

Leaving the church out of it and just applying the concept in a general way, I think that every parent would rather their child suffer for a moment to receive happiness, than never suffer but never receive it.  Anytime we get our kids vaccinated from a disease or force them to do their homework or make them go to the dentist we are essentially causing hardship or pain so they won't suffer later.  That's not messed up; it's a staple of parenthood.

But where I think that it's a misguided concept in regards to religious belief is that I think there are some things that need to be left in God's hands, and someone's relationship with Him is probably one of them.   Not that we wash our hands of the whole situation, but we need to recognize that God is a better judge of how to draw people close to Him than we are, and praying for someone to suffer so they will do what we want (even if we sincerely believe it is what is best for them), makes it all about us.

What we want for them may not be the best for them.  Suffering and hardship can serve good purposes but they aren't for us to wish on others.  We'll have our hands full just dealing with that stuff in our own lives.  Better to let God handle that for other people.  Then we can just love them and support them and be happy for their happiness without an agenda.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There's a concept that sometimes people need to be humbled before they will return. I've heard from very close friends/family this sentiment exactly. I've heard parents hope that one of their children will be humbled by God. So how is one humbled by God? Often times it's by some calamity or hardship that they must endure. So, in essence some families wish for a calamity or hardship upon their loved one so that they will return. IMO that is severely messed up.

Perhaps the parents need to go through their own hard time of their child leaving their faith so that the parents are then humbled?

[MustardSeed]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

be happy for their happiness

I wish I felt more express permission to do this.  I mean, I DO it, but I feel weirdly rebellious doing it.  I want to be unabashedly and without reserve as proud of my kids as my neighbors are of theirs.  I don’t know that I’m expressing this accurately, but I want to feel validated by the unapologetic pride and admiration I feel for ALL of my children.  I feel pride and love.  I also suspect people question my pride.  I think they admire it to some degree (I’ve been told this often) - but why should people need to admire my relationship with my children who left the church?  Shouldn’t that just be a way of life?  Perhaps it can’t be.  It’s a mystery to me. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks for sharing!

You're welcome.  Look, I'm not saying any of that stuff is easy or that I'm particularly good at it (especially not in today's world), but I do think that, compared to so much of the rest of the world, in a lot of ways, do I have less to worry about?  Yes.  Yes, honestly, I do.  Thanks.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I wish I felt more express permission to do this.  I mean, I DO it, but I feel weirdly rebellious doing it.  I want to be unabashedly and without reserve as proud of my kids as my neighbors are of theirs.  I don’t know that I’m expressing this accurately, but I want to feel validated by the unapologetic pride and admiration I feel for ALL of my children.  I feel pride and love.  I also suspect people question my pride.  I think they admire it to some degree (I’ve been told this often) - but why should people need to admire my relationship with my children who left the church?  Shouldn’t that just be a way of life?  Perhaps it can’t be.  It’s a mystery to me. 

I get it.  Telling people that God has directed me to just concentrate on loving my children is totally true, but sometimes I also use it as a shield from criticism depending on who I am talking with, not on purpose. Somehow I don't feel rebellious in it when I think of God and my prayers to him.  It's just when I sometimes talk to others of my faith.   

Edited January 12, 2023 by Rain

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I wish I felt more express permission to do this.  I mean, I DO it, but I feel weirdly rebellious doing it.  I want to be unabashedly and without reserve as proud of my kids as my neighbors are of theirs.  I don’t know that I’m expressing this accurately, but I want to feel validated by the unapologetic pride and admiration I feel for ALL of my children.  I feel pride and love.  I also suspect people question my pride.  I think they admire it to some degree (I’ve been told this often) - but why should people need to admire my relationship with my children who left the church?  Shouldn’t that just be a way of life?  Perhaps it can’t be.  It’s a mystery to me. 

Hearing you describe your feelings as "weirdly rebellious," I don't think this applies to your situation, but for some others who struggle to feel permission to have peace with a child's decision to leave, I wonder if some of it is our wariness of being judged as not being committed to the gospel ourselves if we still express happiness with our kids who stop believing?  Like a way to stave off the "well, if sharon really had a testimony she wouldn't be ok with her son going inactive" judgement stuff? 

Like those people who are judgmental of someone who gets married "too soon" after a spouse died, I bet there are members who react similarly to when how a parent responds when a kid leaves.  So much of our actions and feelings are connected to how we think we are going to be perceived by others.  Maybe being openly upset and sad and "sackcloth and ashes" can seem like a shield against judgey-mcjudgersons for some members.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think this is an offshoot of the "sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they can make better choices" concept that exists everywhere.   Kind of a Hail Mary play when you are out of options and you believe the stakes can't get any higher. 

I don't think it's severely messed up but I do think it's misguided and self-centered. 

Leaving the church out of it and just applying the concept in a general way, I think that every parent would rather their child suffer for a moment to receive happiness, than never suffer but never receive it.  Anytime we get our kids vaccinated from a disease or force them to do their homework or make them go to the dentist we are essentially causing hardship or pain so they won't suffer later.  That's not messed up; it's a staple of parenthood.

But where I think that it's a misguided concept in regards to religious belief is that I think there are some things that need to be left in God's hands, and someone's relationship with Him is probably one of them.   Not that we wash our hands of the whole situation, but we need to recognize that God is a better judge of how to draw people close to Him than we are, and praying for someone to suffer so they will do what we want (even if we sincerely believe it is what is best for them), makes it all about us.

What we want for them may not be the best for them.  Suffering and hardship can serve good purposes but they aren't for us to wish on others.  We'll have our hands full just dealing with that stuff in our own lives.  Better to let God handle that for other people.  Then we can just love them and support them and be happy for their happiness without an agenda.

I suppose it depends on the degree of hardship that is supposedly inflicted on a person to make them humble. I don't think most people would consider minor or very temporary hardships to be sufficient to drive a person to be adequately humbled. (we're not talking about a speeding ticket level event) I would suspect that in many cases the hardship required to fully humble a person would be severe. Perhaps the death of a child/spouse or a divorce or job loss or serious injury/illness? IMO wishing any of those types of things on another person in hopes that they will be humbled in a way that will lead them to believe the same way the loved one believes, is severely messed up. I believe that someone stating they wish a serious hardship on a person, sufficient to humble them, is at best jerky. If a loved one told me they wished me that kind of severe hardship/calamity I don't think our relationship could ever recover. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I suppose it depends on the degree of hardship that is supposedly inflicted on a person to make them humble. I don't think most people would consider minor or very temporary hardships to be sufficient to drive a person to be adequately humbled. (we're not talking about a speeding ticket level event) I would suspect that in many cases the hardship required to fully humble a person would be severe. Perhaps the death of a child/spouse or a divorce or job loss or serious injury/illness? IMO wishing any of those types of things on another person in hopes that they will be humbled in a way that will lead them to believe the same way the loved one believes, is severely messed up. I believe that someone stating they wish a serious hardship on a person, sufficient to humble them, is at best jerky. If a loved one told me they wished me that kind of severe hardship/calamity I don't think our relationship could ever recover. 

I agree, hoping that someone else dies so you can get your child to do what you want is really messed up.  But to be fair, it doesn't sound like you know of anyone who has actually hoped that.  No reason to make up scenarios to be appalled about.  Plenty to be appalled about in the world without inventing stuff.   

[Senator]

11 minutes ago, Balaam said:

 

The Church is only for those who want perfection and are willing to work at becoming perfect, so in that sense the Church is not for everyone who won't commit to it's purpose 100%.0.

 

 

What is there about that statement that spawns a gut reaction in me to want to run away as fast as I can from any group that professes such a thing.

[Rain]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Hearing you describe your feelings as "weirdly rebellious," I don't think this applies to your situation, but for some others who struggle to feel permission to have peace with a child's decision to leave, I wonder if some of it is our wariness of being judged as not being committed to the gospel ourselves if we still express happiness with our kids who stop believing?  Like a way to stave off the "well, if sharon really had a testimony she wouldn't be ok with her son going inactive" judgement stuff? 

Yes.  I can see how that especially applies in my feelings as well.  When my brother first started drinking a group from my high school started talking about him, apparently not know we were siblings.  They were talking about how bad my parents must be to have a son that was doing things like that.   I think that plays into my feelings of how other people must view me as a parent sometimes.

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like those people who are judgmental of someone who gets married "too soon" after a spouse died, I bet there are members who react similarly to when how a parent responds when a kid leaves.  So much of our actions and feelings are connected to how we think we are going to be perceived by others.  Maybe being openly upset and sad and "sackcloth and ashes" can seem like a shield against judgey-mcjudgersons for some members.

 

 

[Damien the Leper]

Before resigning my membership, a former bishop/friend told me that if I left that I'd be so miserable that I wouldn't know how miserable I'd be. I simply chuckled and not out of disrespect but because of the absolute absurdity of the statement. 

[Rain]

1 minute ago, Balaam said:

Some people are, well, let's just say they are not very wise and therefore do not make very wise decisions.  Instead of thinking of how some people might view you, however wise they are or are not, I would try my best to learn from God. 

I don't actually sit there and think about it.  I just know it's part of my experience and often affects me on an unconscious level.  Definitely it is best to learn from God, but for some of us it takes years and decades to be able to shake off our experiences and only care about what he says.

[Ginger Snaps]

There’s just so much we don’t know. We like to trot out the “Families Are Forever!” banner and pretend we have pat answers for everything, but we DON’T. 
 
I have a child who is on their way out. As their 18th birthday rapidly approaches, it is clear to me that this child will leave.  And a few things have occurred to me

1. There is much we don’t understand about the sealing power, but it is highly significant to me that we don’t have a mechanism for undoing a sealing between parent  and child. I suppose there are some who would argue that the child removing themselves from the rolls of the church would be doing so. . . but I’m not convinced of that. In divorce situations, sealing cancellations still must happen even if one party has resigned. 
 

2. Jesus said “In my father’s house are many mansions”. I live in a neighborhood with a great deal of construction going on. You can look at many houses on a street that are all comparable in value, but they can be very different. Floor plans, choice of materials and decor used, landscaping, etc. Maybe we know so little about the afterlife because it’s going to look a little different from person to person. Maybe there will be freedoms and choices there that we can’t even fathom yet. 
 

I loved what Bluebell said about God knowing best how to draw his children into himself.  He never has worked on our timetables, but only on His.