My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

What about the guy who is now in the stake presidency?

Personally, I like to approach people who avoid me, sounds like he might be open to repentance and apologizing to your son.

that is the guy in the stake presidency! honestly, I could care less about him, I know they are FB friends so who knows if they talk, I can ask him

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

But establishing rules and enforcing them with consequences is having dominion, control, and sometimes compulsion over your child. This is critical to being a good parent. They key is to do this at the appropriate level and for the right reasons.

I have a grandson for whom this simply does not work..  Having raised five of my own I know this is not unusual, it might not be normal, but it is not unusual. How do you suggest dealing with a teenager who simply will not change his/her behavior based on consequence-based parenting.

On Edit.

 

I had one of my own like this. I got more phone calls from teachers, coaches, ward leaders and others on him than all the others combined. I got to the point where I would ask the person calling: "I have the same problem with him at home, how would you suggest I control him here?" Most responses were along the lines of setting boundaries and enforcing them. I would reply  by asking them if they were trying that with him in their school room or church class and how that was working out for them there, because it sure wasn't working for me.

Edited January 11, 2023 by CA Steve

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that is the guy in the stake presidency! honestly, I could care less about him, I know they are FB friends so who knows if they talk, I can ask him

Just an idea if you think it might help your son and help this former YM leader to do better.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

That can become its own form of bullying pretty easily. 

I do it in a very kind, ice-breaking way.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I have a grandson for whom this simply does not work..  Having raised five of my own I know this is not unusual, it might not be normal, but it is not unusual. How do you suggest dealing with a teenager who simply will not change his/her behavior based on consequence-based parenting.

On Edit.

 

I had one of my own like this. I got more phone calls from teachers, coaches, ward leaders and others on him than all the others combined. I got to the point where I would ask the person calling: "I have the same problem with him at home, how would you suggest I control him here?" Most responses were along the lines of setting boundaries and enforcing them. I would reply  by asking them if they were trying that with him in their school room or church class and how that was working out for them there, because it sure wasn't working for me.

A lot of us parents don't understand how our feelings of control over our kids are largely an illusion, until we have or have to deal with a child like this.  But if we have really never run up against one, it's easy to see why we might believe the sole issue is bad parenting.

How did your child do once he was grown and out of the house?  I've seen it go two ways myself.  Either the kid continues to be unable to function in society and it goes really badly, or they mature out of their previous issues (sometimes with mental health help) and do really great as an adult.   

Edited January 11, 2023 by bluebell

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Balaam said:

I would say it is both bad and sad that something like that had to be done to restore righteous order in the home, but sometimes we have to go through some bad things to make things better.

To clarify I don't mean bad as in evil.  I just mean bad like war is bad even when necessary for righteousness sake.

That makes sense. I was using the word "bad" as in wrong.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I’m curious about this idea that you can’t infer that someone likely doesn’t have first hand knowledge of something in a civil discussion.  Or that doing so is an “accusation”.

Can you explain the thought process behind that reaction?  I try hard to always be respectful in my communications and your reaction was a surprise to me.

It's not a big deal, I just didn't think that suggesting that my response was coming from a place of ignorance was in keeping with civil discourse, especially at that point in the conversation. You didn't know anything about my background and my experience working with teens, so assuming that my response was ignorant is a little aggressive and didn't contribute anything to the conversation. 

[manol]

6 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Thought I would share an experience of one of my brothers relationships with my parents to help you understand how a child can FEEL your disappointment and that is what usually will end a healthy relationship. 

 My brother decided to leave the church at 20. My parents sat the rest us down and told us even though he decided to leave, we were not going to treat him any different. Now, that sounds good, but, even though we tried to treat him the same, he could tell my parents were disappointed in him. They couldn't control their feelings, everytime he came by the house you could SEE and FEEL a difference in how my parents acted around him. They tried and tried and tried to act normal, but they couldn't do it. Everytime they looked at my brother, all they could see was a child who was being influenced by Satan. All they could see is the child they would have to visit in a lower kingdom once everyone was dead, a child on the outside of the covenant we made with God. Yeapadt and my brother started to slowly pull away from the family. I was the only one willing to ask him why. He said coming around was becoming uncomfortable. That he could FEEL the tension everytime he walked into the door. 

  The relationship between my parents and my brother became so bad, my mom asked him if he would join her in going to family therapy. The very first session my Mom admitted that she couldn't stop FEELING sad and disappointed in my brother because in her mind, she knew for a fact that my brother wouldn't be in heaven with the rest of the family. That she has tried and tried her best to shake that feeling, but  she can't. She also admitted she was disappointed in my brother because he gave up his priesthood and was honoring the covenant he made with God. Well, that was the end of my mother's relationship with my brother. He hasn't been around for years. My children have never met his children. The relationship has become so bed now, he FEELS like he needs to protect his children from the rest of the family. All this because my mom FELT like she lost a child before he died and she couldn't hide how she actually FEELS!

That's a very sad situation.

Imo the situation invites your parents to shift their paradigm to one where they do not honestly FEEL like their son was lost to them.  Imo their current fear-infused paradigm has failed them.  Imo they would benefit from a paradigm which converges towards unity instead of towards separation.  Perhaps consider this possibility:

Perfect love casts out fear, including the fear that God will condemn someone you love.  The truth will set you free, including free from the fear that God will condemn someone you love.  And perfect love is the truth. 

Upon this foundation a paradigm can be built which converges towards unity instead of towards separation. 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by manol

[MiserereNobis]

6 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Everytime they looked at my brother, all they could see was a child who was being influenced by Satan. All they could see is the child they would have to visit in a lower kingdom once everyone was dead, a child on the outside of the covenant we made with God.

Perhaps one thing that could help is if parents in this situation realized that everyone, including themselves, is being influenced by Satan (and the world and the flesh), not just their child. Also, they are assuming they will be in a higher kingdom while the child will be in a lower kingdom. Perhaps some humility regarding their state of salvation and a lack of judgement of their child's state of salvation could help, too.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Thanks for the explanation. I think you are right in that you define those words in ways that I don’t think make much sense, and that is where our main disagreement lies. 

No, problem. As far as definitions go, I actually think that you are applying definitions to these words that aren't accurate, and putting a negative spin on each one, when this really isn't the case. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It's not a big deal, I just didn't think that suggesting that my response was coming from a place of ignorance was in keeping with civil discourse, especially at that point in the conversation. You didn't know anything about my background and my experience working with teens, so assuming that my response was ignorant is a little aggressive and didn't contribute anything to the conversation. 

It seemed like a valid assumption to make because no one who has any experience with the kinds of kids I was describing would label them offhandedly as "completely psycho".  That's the kind of label I've only ever exclusively seen used by people without personal experiences with them.  It was an informed assumption but I agree, it was an assumption and not proven fact.  

Pointing out that we don't all have the same experiences isn't aggressive from my perspective, it's just the truth.  And I did it with a purpose that was meant to contribute to the discussion.  If I'm talking to someone who has personal experience with something that I don't, then I want to know that.  They can speak on it in a way that I just can't.  It doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything they are saying, or that they are right and I am wrong, but (for me) it does mean that they have information that I don't and that's relevant.

I brought it up because I thought it might be relevant to you as well.    I meant no disrespect.  

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

It seemed like a valid assumption to make because no one who has any experience with the kinds of kids I was describing would label them offhandedly as "completely psycho".  That's the kind of label I've only ever exclusively seen used by people without personal experiences with them.  It was an informed assumption but I agree, it was an assumption and not proven fact.  

Pointing out that we don't all have the same experiences isn't aggressive from my perspective, it's just the truth.  And I did it with a purpose that was meant to contribute to the discussion.  If I'm talking to someone who has personal experience with something that I don't, then I want to know that.  They can speak on it in a way that I just can't.  It doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything they are saying, or that they are right and I am wrong, but (for me) it does mean that they have information that I don't and that's relevant.

I brought it up because I thought it might be relevant to you as well.    I meant no disrespect.  

I appreciate the response. Might I suggest not being so quick to make assumptions of ignorance next time. Whether you intended it to be disrespectful or not, it is. A better approach in my opinion would be to ask what I meant by being "psycho" or what experience I have working with teens, instead of trying to dismiss my perspective as ignorant right out of the gate. 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, problem. As far as definitions go, I actually think that you are applying definitions to these words that aren't accurate, and putting a negative spin on each one, when this really isn't the case. 

That could be.  I'm trying to use the original context of the verses in the D&C to help me figure out what was meant by the use of each word.  I'm not personally getting 'rules and consequences' as how to do compel, dominate, and control righteously. 

But reasonable people can disagree.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I appreciate the response. Might I suggest not being so quick to make assumptions of ignorance next time. Whether you intended it to be disrespectful or not, it is. A better approach in my opinion would be to ask what I meant by being "psycho" or what experience I have working with teens, instead of trying to dismiss my perspective as ignorant right out of the gate. 

Maybe part of the issue is that you seem to see ignorance as a negative thing?   I don't think it's negative to be ignorant of something at all.  Lots of stuff I'm ignorant of.  LOTS.  Ignorance is a fact of life. If you think you know something that I don't, point it out.  That's how the best discussions work in my book.   I don't believe doing so is disrespectful.  I can see now that you see it that way, but it's hard to be held to other people's feelings as the standard for how to communicate appropriately.  We are all so different.

Now that I know this about your preferences though, I will remember it in the future.  If you do see claims of ignorance as a negative then it makes sense that you would assume I meant it disrespectfully or as an accusation.  Again, I apologize for the confusion.

[Islander]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

Do not make his Church attendance the center of the relationship. Strive to continue to be a loving and supportive parent in every way. Be intentional about how much time you spend with him doing things he likes and enjoys. Provide opportunities at home, if possible, for him to spend time with his friends. Make time to "touch bases" with him about what he's doing, feeling, thinking, planning. Try to involve him in FHE but don't make the event about trying to bring him back to Church. It is about the family gathering  and spending a fun times together.

As for the rest, keep praying. Only our Heavenly Father knows what will happen over time.

Whish you the best. 

[CA Steve]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

A lot of us parents don't understand how our feelings of control over our kids are largely an illusion, until we have or have to deal with a child like this.  But if we have really never run up against one, it's easy to see why we might believe the sole issue is bad parenting.a

How did your child do once he was grown and out of the house?  I've seen it go two ways myself.  Either the kid continues to be unable to function in society and it goes really badly, or they mature out of their previous issues (sometimes with mental health help) and do really great as an adult.   

He is in his 's mid 30's with 2 of his own kids, one of which looks to have a lot of the same qualities he had as a child and he is every bit as frustrated with him as I was with him. He is a good father but struggles with making enough money to support his family, a consequence of not really paying attention in school. Bottom line is he is fairly happy, and we have a decent relationship. Though we have to stay away from political discussions.

 

[maj]

50 minutes ago, Islander said:

Do not make his Church attendance the center of the relationship. Strive to continue to be a loving and supportive parent in every way. Be intentional about how much time you spend with him doing things he likes and enjoys. Provide opportunities at home, if possible, for him to spend time with his friends. Make time to "touch bases" with him about what he's doing, feeling, thinking, planning. Try to involve him in FHE but don't make the event about trying to bring him back to Church. It is about the family gathering  and spending a fun times together.

As for the rest, keep praying. Only our Heavenly Father knows what will happen over time.

Whish you the best. 

His mother and I are divorced and I have no other children. So, family home evening was just me and him.

 

[Mark Beesley]

On 1/6/2023 at 6:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

What is the greatest thing we have to learn in this life? To love God, and to love one another. How do we learn to love? We learn to love by serving. The Church community exists in great part so that people have an opportunity to learn love by serving one another. The Church is not essential for that purpose. The Church is essential for the ordinances, but those can come later. Learning to serve and to love one another in this life is something that will be very difficult to learn later. Spend as much time as you can with your entire family in service to others, and I promise you, you will not be disappointed in the resurrection.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Maybe part of the issue is that you seem to see ignorance as a negative thing?   I don't think it's negative to be ignorant of something at all.  Lots of stuff I'm ignorant of.  LOTS.  Ignorance is a fact of life. If you think you know something that I don't, point it out.  That's how the best discussions work in my book.   I don't believe doing so is disrespectful.  I can see now that you see it that way, but it's hard to be held to other people's feelings as the standard for how to communicate appropriately.  We are all so different.

Now that I know this about your preferences though, I will remember it in the future.  If you do see claims of ignorance as a negative then it makes sense that you would assume I meant it disrespectfully or as an accusation.  Again, I apologize for the confusion.

Thanks for explaining your perspective and apologizing. It's all good. 

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

So as long as you can enforce it it’s righteous to do?

Please define righteous.

Would you give me an example?

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, maj said:

His mother and I are divorced and I have no other children. So, family home evening was just me and him.

 

We decided to relate with our two wayward sons as we would with any other non-member.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

12 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I have a grandson for whom this simply does not work..  Having raised five of my own I know this is not unusual, it might not be normal, but it is not unusual. How do you suggest dealing with a teenager who simply will not change his/her behavior based on consequence-based parenting.

On Edit.

 

I had one of my own like this. I got more phone calls from teachers, coaches, ward leaders and others on him than all the others combined. I got to the point where I would ask the person calling: "I have the same problem with him at home, how would you suggest I control him here?" Most responses were along the lines of setting boundaries and enforcing them. I would reply  by asking them if they were trying that with him in their school room or church class and how that was working out for them there, because it sure wasn't working for me.

When you say that "this simply does not work" for your grandson and simply didn't work for your own son, what do you mean?

Are you saying that no consequence, whether a punishment or reward, had any impact whatsoever on influencing their actions? Because if that's the case, I would find that very hard to believe. 

If you meant something else can you please clarify? 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Peacefully]

10 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps one thing that could help is if parents in this situation realized that everyone, including themselves, is being influenced by Satan (and the world and the flesh), not just their child. Also, they are assuming they will be in a higher kingdom while the child will be in a lower kingdom. Perhaps some humility regarding their state of salvation and a lack of judgement of their child's state of salvation could help, too.

Reminds me of this quote from “A Christmas Carol.”

Man,” said the Ghost, “if man you be in heart, not adamant, forbear that wicked cant until you have discovered What the surplus is, and Where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child. Oh God! To hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust.

The Ghost of Christmas Present, Charles ****ens

[mrmarklin]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:03 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I'm not judging the world of teens exclusively by my two.

I have a lot of experience working with teens. Kids need clear boundaries and guidance. And when necessary tough love. The kids who don't respond to any of the methods I mentioned are the exception, not the rule. 

Big believer in tough love. But let’s head this off at the pass. When my kids (4) were young teenagers I made it very clear about adult activities. This was way before it would have even occurred to them to engage in rebellious behavior. I reinforced this by showing all of them good adult activities. During high school my three sons were sponsored RC racers. Sponsored by me. Every Wednesday night for many years. This activity taught them a lot.  Every once in a while we would have a one on one weekend. Camping, riding local train rides, Disneyland one to one etc. I’m an avid motorcycle rider, so this was also something to do together.   But most long weekends were one on one. 
Now all my kids are my best friends. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

8 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Big believer in tough love. But let’s head this off at the pass. When my kids (4) were young teenagers I made it very clear about adult activities. This was way before it would have even occurred to them to engage in rebellious behavior. I reinforced this by showing all of them good adult activities. During high school my three sons were sponsored RC racers. Sponsored by me. Every Wednesday night for many years. This activity taught them a lot.  Every once in a while we would have a one on one weekend. Camping, riding local train rides, Disneyland one to one etc. I’m an avid motorcycle rider, so this was also something to do together.   But most long weekends were one on one. 
Now all my kids are my best friends. 

Sounds like great parenting to me.