My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[Maestrophil]

On 1/7/2023 at 11:26 AM, maj said:

This is a wonderful way of looking at things, a real eternal perspective.

 

Thank you for sharing this, it's really made me think.

My pleasure - keep hope and trust and just love your kids as much as you can! 🙂

[Peacefully]

My son told me he wasn’t sure he believed any more when he was 16. To say I was shocked would be an understatement. However, he kept going to church ( I didn’t really give him a choice and he didn’t fight me on it). He also earned his Eagle Scout, went to BYU for a year and then went on a mission to Colombia. About six months in I knew by his letters that he was having a hard time. He flew to the capital to talk to his mission President about his doubts. Eight months in, he finally sent me a letter saying he couldn’t teach what he didn’t  believe. I know my son and his tendency to get depressed so I told him to come home, and the mission President also said he should come home. Everyone from the stake President to the bishop and ward members were so good to him when he came back. He stayed in the ward awhile longer but he stopped going after a few months. He is 32 now and hasn’t changed his mind. He considers himself either an atheist or agnostic. However, I have changed over the years. I no longer grieve the fact that he doesn’t believe, because I am so proud of the man he has become. He is a child of God and I know God loves him as much or more than I do. It’s ok if our children use their agency and make different decisions than we would make. Just love them and leave the rest in their Heavenly Father’s hands. 

[manol]

30 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

My son told me he wasn’t sure he believed any more when he was 16.  To say I was shocked would be an understatement... He is 32 now and hasn’t changed his mind. He considers himself either an atheist or agnostic. However, I have changed over the years. I no longer grieve the fact that he doesn’t believe, because I am so proud of the man he has become. He is a child of God and I know God loves him as much or more than I do. It’s ok if our children use their agency and make different decisions than we would make. Just love them and leave the rest in their Heavenly Father’s hands.  (emphasis manol's)

Yes.  Imo this is how it's done.

We can tune our antenna into wherever on the spectrum we wish, and that becomes what we perceive and what we broadcast.  Peacefully tuned to the most loving end of the spectrum we can access from here on earth.  And imo, that's what we are here to learn to do, as that's what Christ did.

Thank you for sharing this with us. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by manol

[carbon dioxide]

My son also decided on stop going to church several years ago.  I am ok with it.  If we teach agency then we have to allow our children to make choices.   I am confident that my son will come back.  Events of the world are speeding up and some will come back by not being compelled and others will be compelled by one thing or another. 

[Peacefully]

52 minutes ago, manol said:

Yes.  Imo this is how it's done.

We can tune our antenna into wherever on the spectrum we wish, and that becomes what we perceive and what we broadcast.  Peacefully tuned to the most loving end of the spectrum we can access from here on earth.  And imo, that's what we are here to learn to do, as that's what Christ did.

Thank you for sharing this with us. 

YW and thank you for the kind words. I hope my journey can help those going through the pain of a loved one leaving the church. It really does get better:) 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Peacefully

[MiserereNobis]

15 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

If he doesn’t like it he can go to a shelter run by child protective services. 

15 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I taught my kids very early on that if they want to do adult activities, then I will treat them as adults. That includes being on their own as an adult.

You can't just drop kids off at an orphanage for not going to church -- they're not going to accept your child. And geez, what a way to promote a love for church: "If you don't go, you're going to live in an orphanage."

And you can't just kick kids out of your house and wash your hands of it. If you don't allow your teenagers to live at home, you have to pay for their living expenses wherever they are or you can be charged with abandonment.

15 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

So no, I didn’t need to tell them about safe sex or safe drug use. If they wanted adulthood, they can figure it out for themselves.

Not teaching your children about huge issues like sexuality and drugs is piss poor parenting. I'm a high school teacher and I get to see firsthand the results of such parenting.

 

[Meadowchik]

51 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You can't just drop kids off at an orphanage for not going to church -- they're not going to accept your child. And geez, what a way to promote a love for church: "If you don't go, you're going to live in an orphanage."

And you can't just kick kids out of your house and wash your hands of it. If you don't allow your teenagers to live at home, you have to pay for their living expenses wherever they are or you can be charged with abandonment.

Not teaching your children about huge issues like sexuality and drugs is piss poor parenting. I'm a high school teacher and I get to see firsthand the results of such parenting.

 

Yup, how incredibly selfish too, to deny life saving information and assistance because they don't do what you want.

That's not love. I don't think it's Christlike.

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Yup, how incredibly selfish too, to deny life saving information and assistance because they don't do what you want.

That's not love. I don't think it's Christlike.

It’s not.  It’s called force, it’s called manipulation, it’s Satans plan, and it’s a guarantee for your own nursing home. 

[MustardSeed]

Sometimes I swear that these extreme post replies are just baits to be able to challenge members to battle against manipulation and control the poster himself has been a victim of.  If that’s what this is, you have my full empathy and second hand apology for what you have experienced.  Be well, and learn that love is safe and Christlike and way more fun. 

[california boy]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I thought this would be helpful, hopefully you aren't offended I linked to exmo reddit. But it has a 15 year old who agreed to go to church with his parents if they would read the comments on his post on there. Here's the opening post:

If anyone is thinking about punishing their children by kicking them out of their homes, or forcing them to attend and stay in the Church, I think it would be very helpful to read the comments on the post you linked to.  Punishment and conditional love rarely works.  

I just buried my father this week who was 100 when he died.  Even though he severed his relationship with me for years, and then finally realized that I was never going to be straight like the rest of his children and finally accepted that, I honestly never recovered from that experience.  I still feel like I am not in the family even though I can now attend family gatherings.  The scars are just too deep to ever trust anyone's love again.

The decision you are making is far more serious than you think it is. Think carefully if you ever want your child to really trust your love for them ever again.

[pogi]

What is that scripture about priesthood and coercion? 

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s not.  It’s called force, it’s called manipulation, it’s Satans plan, and it’s a guarantee for your own nursing home. 

It reminds me of these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants 121: 36-37: 

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

 

[MustardSeed]

58 minutes ago, california boy said:

If anyone is thinking about punishing their children by kicking them out of their homes, or forcing them to attend and stay in the Church, I think it would be very helpful to read the comments on the post you linked to.  Punishment and conditional love rarely works.  

I just buried my father this week who was 100 when he died.  Even though he severed his relationship with me for years, and then finally realized that I was never going to be straight like the rest of his children and finally accepted that, I honestly never recovered from that experience.  I still feel like I am not in the family even though I can now attend family gatherings.  The scars are just too deep to ever trust anyone's love again.

The decision you are making is far more serious than you think it is. Think carefully if you ever want your child to really trust your love for them ever again.

I’m sorry for all of those losses.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It reminds me of these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants 121: 36-37: 

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

 

I think the line I underlined is significant. The Lord didn't say that exercising control, dominion, or compulsion is always bad. It's only bad when done in "any degree of unrighteousness."

I'm not saying that threatening to kick a rebellious teen out of the house is necessarily the right approach here, but there's nothing wrong with being a strict parent who lays down the rules and follows through with appropriate consequences for breaking those rules. 

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think the line I underlined is significant. The Lord didn't say that exercising control, dominion, or compulsion is always bad. It's only bad when done in "any degree of unrighteousness."

I'm not saying that threatening to kick a rebellious teen out of the house is necessarily the right approach here, but there's nothing wrong with being a strict parent who lays down the rules and follows through with appropriate consequences for breaking those rules. 

Inevitably our opinions of what is “unrighteous” is always going to vary based on our own experiences, our fears, our relationship with God, and our relationship with our children. My child would have to be physically dangerous to other people in the home for me to have them removed Before they were adults. Obviously other people think differently. I feel sorry for their children. And for them.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Inevitably our opinions of what is “unrighteous” is always going to vary based on our own experiences, our fears, our relationship with God, and our relationship with our children. My child would have to be physically dangerous to other people in the home for me to have them removed Before they were adults. Obviously other people think differently. I feel sorry for their children. And for them.

I would definitely not allow my teenager to have sex, do drugs, or do other immoral things in my home, because I consider this to be destructive to the well-being of that child and to their siblings who see their bad example.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I would definitely not allow my teenager to have sex, do drugs, or do other immoral things in my home, because I consider this to be destructive to the well-being of that child and to their siblings who see their bad example.

What would you do with them?  Legally you aren’t allowed to kick them out. 

[MustardSeed]

Well I wouldn’t be permissive of those things either.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

What would you do with them?  Legally you aren’t allowed to kick them out. 

I would have a serious conversation with them and ground them and take away their privileges, not let their significant other into the house, take the door off of their room, have them meet with the bishop, put them into counseling or therapy, etc.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I would have a serious conversation with them and ground them and take away their privileges, not let their significant other into the house, take the door off of their room, have them meet with the bishop, put them into counseling or therapy, etc.

All valid options. But none remove their agency or their ability to continue to do those things you don’t want them to, if they are determined to do so.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

All valid options. But none remove their agency or their ability to continue to do those things you don’t want them to, if they are determined to do so.

True, they would still have their agency and could ultimately still decide to go down the path of misery, but it will be much more difficult for them. And their ability to do it under they roof of their parents would pretty much be eliminated.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I would have a serious conversation with them and ground them and take away their privileges, not let their significant other into the house, take the door off of their room, have them meet with the bishop, put them into counseling or therapy, etc.

What if they decide to never attend church?  What if they don't want to talk with the bishop or be sent to counseling/therapy because they don't believe anything is wrong with them for not believing in the church?   Do you think this is all a healthy and effective approach to building a meaningful and lasting testimony of the gospel, not to mention relationship with your child?  Will you just permanently ground your child?  What do you do in the case of the OP?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

What if they decide to never attend church?  What if they don't want to talk with the bishop or be sent to counseling/therapy because they don't believe anything is wrong with them for not believing in the church?   Do you think this is all a healthy and effective approach to building a meaningful and lasting testimony of the gospel, not to mention relationship with your child?  Will you just permanently ground your child?  What do you do in the case of the OP?

The comment regarding the steps I would take was in regards to sex, drugs, and other immoral behavior, not the issue of my teen saying they don't want to come to church anymore.

In the case of my teen telling me that they no longer want to go to church, the first step would be to have a serious heart to heart conversation with them about why they no longer want to go. How the conversation goes would dictate the next steps I would take. I would also try to find out if there's anything they had done or were doing that would cause them to lose the influence of the Holy Ghost and try to address that. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

True, they would still have their agency and could ultimately still decide to go down the path of misery, but it will be much more difficult for them. And their ability to do it under they roof of their parents would pretty much be eliminated.

Sadly it wouldn't be eliminated at all, and that's what makes this kind of thing difficult.  

When you want to send a toddler or 9 year old to their room, that's where they go whether they want to or not.  If a teenager doesn't want to go to their room, then you won't be able to make them in most cases, and forcing it could damage the relationship irrevocably.  And there is no way to put a kid in therapy who refuses to go.  Even if you could physically force them into the room (something I can't imagine many therapists even allowing), you could do nothing to make them talk.  Likewise with grounding.  Short of locks and bars, a kid who wants to leave, will leave whether they are grounded or not (and in many cases the police will not help you get them back home again).

Though we don't like to admit it (or even think about it), once our kids get a certain age we only wield as much power over them as they allow.  Most kids will allow a fair amount because they are mentally healthy enough, and have a good enough relationship with their parents, that they see the love and recognize some of the wisdom behind the decisions whether they like them or not.  But there will always be some kids that are not mentally stable enough or who are rebellious enough or who have zero respect for their parents (or a combination of two or all) that will not comply no matter what.

Once we understand how truly limited our ability to successfully physically compel our kids is, we can better understand the dangers of attempting to spiritually compel them.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

And there is no way to put a kid in therapy who refuses to go. 

We took my daughter to therapy even though she didn’t want to (at 14 and 15 iirc), she pretty much just refused to talk to him.  She had severe social anxiety and was still in denial about her diabetes, so it was only a portion rebellion and much a belief that she just couldn’t endure it.  Once she decided she was ready for therapy a few years later, there were no issues…we also went with a younger woman who was very soft spoken and that no doubt helped.