My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think it would be healthy for the child and the parent, for the parent to quit pining for their child's return to church, much more healthy if they don't do that. 

Do you believe there is no healthy way that a parent can hope for a child to return to church?

And, of course, what Calm said.

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, gopher said:

Do you believe there is no healthy way that a parent can hope for a child to return to church?

And, of course, what Calm said.

Certainly. Also, how does this affect the child and the relationship between parent and son?  
 

And are we so certain that our church is the only way to feel joy? If our children feel something is unethical, is it wise to wish they would embrace it anyway? 

[MustardSeed]

Sorry I’ve made this post about me. I think I’ve beaten this to a dead horse.

I believe we can choose full joy as parents of children who are contributing healthy members of society who are kind and work hard and who are good humans.  No reservations, trusting that God will not punish me and that my son is not wayward. Lost. That he is loved.  I’m free to be proud and without longing. Our relationship is strong and honest.  It is a valid, but lonely place to be apparently, 

Be well all ❤️

Edited January 16, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Calm]

Would anyone here feel it is inappropriate for a parent to actively hope that a child with a strong intellect and interest in studying would want to go back to college after dropping out and by doing so being able to pursue training that would allow them to be more effective in learning and aware of how to evaluate the quality of what they are reading?  This greater skill would give them access to better quality, more insightful and therefore likely more rewarding resources as well as develop their intellect in significant ways. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sorry I’ve made this post about me. I think I’ve beaten this to a dead horse.

I believe we can choose full joy as parents of children who are contributing healthy members of society who are kind and work hard and who are good humans.  No reservations, trusting that God will not punish me and that my son is not wayward. Lost. That he is loved.  I’m free to be proud and without longing. Our relationship is strong and honest.  It is a valid, but lonely place to be apparently, 

Be well all ❤️

The terms wayward and lost have a lot of baggage that may not actually be applicable. If my daughter is on her own path and it will take her to where she needs to go, how can she be lost?  Otoh, the parables of Jesus encourage the use, but they are focused on the end result where those lost are found again (apparently unharmed)…I find it interesting that what is lost is found in most of the parables rather than returning solely on their own as happens in the prodigal son (though the father also runs out to meet him, so it is a mutual reuniting).  It suggests to me that we should trust the Lord as he will reach out and bring those not now in the flock back into the fold when it’s time. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

The terms wayward and lost have a lot of baggage that may not actually be applicable. If my daughter is on her own path and it will take her to where she needs to go, how can she be lost?

What does Lehi and Nephi's vision of the tree of life have to say about the subject?

[MustardSeed]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Would anyone here feel it is inappropriate for a parent to actively hope that a child with a strong intellect and interest in studying would want to go back to college after dropping out and by doing so being able to pursue training that would allow them to be more effective in learning and aware of how to evaluate the quality of what they are reading?  This greater skill would give them access to better quality, more insightful and therefore likely more rewarding resources as well as develop their intellect in significant ways. 

I’m in that boat.  I’m in a unique situation there, my son left college to pursue a trade. He absolutely loves it and is excelling. His father does pine for his son to go back to college and though he doesn’t say it out loud there is a clear tension between them around the topic. My husband cannot help but passively My husband cannot help but passively operate from a place that exposes his desire. This hurts my son deeply as he just wants his dad to be proud of him. operate from a place that exposes his desire. This hurts my son deeply as he just wants his dad to be proud of him.

[MustardSeed]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

The terms wayward and lost have a lot of baggage that may not actually be applicable. If my daughter is on her own path and it will take her to where she needs to go, how can she be lost?  Otoh, the parables of Jesus encourage the use, but they are focused on the end result where those lost are found again (apparently unharmed)…I find it interesting that what is lost is found in most of the parables rather than returning solely on their own as happens in the prodigal son (though the father also runs out to meet him, so it is a mutual reuniting).  It suggests to me that we should trust the Lord as he will reach out and bring those not now in the flock back into the fold when it’s time. 

This is a beautiful hopeful message for those who seek peace

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m in that boat.  I’m in a unique situation there, my son left college to pursue a trade. He absolutely loves it and is excelling. His father does pine for his son to go back to college and though he doesn’t say it out loud there is a clear tension between them around the topic. My husband cannot help but passively My husband cannot help but passively operate from a place that exposes his desire. This hurts my son deeply as he just wants his dad to be proud of him. operate from a place that exposes his desire. This hurts my son deeply as he just wants his dad to be proud of him.

That is unfortunate. I think if there is joy in what is being pursued and development through it, then there is no need for disappointment. I don’t think hope for the future needs to be coupled with disappointment or dissatisfaction in the present. There is a time and season for everything. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Calm

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Would anyone here feel it is inappropriate for a parent to actively hope that a child with a strong intellect and interest in studying would want to go back to college after dropping out and by doing so being able to pursue training that would allow them to be more effective in learning and aware of how to evaluate the quality of what they are reading?  This greater skill would give them access to better quality, more insightful and therefore likely more rewarding resources as well as develop their intellect in significant ways. 

College was so important to us.  We used to tell our kids that we didn’t care what profession they had as long as they were happy, but when it came down to it we really wanted them to go to college.  It gave my husband and I so much more. 

My son is bright.  He would have been a good mechanical engineer.  He has such a gift with animals he would have made a great vet.  But he has chosen to be a bug exterminator.  There is nothing wrong with that, but we hoped that he would do something where he could really use his mental gifts.

A few years ago I realized he was happy in that profession.  Happy is what we hoped for.  He has a way with customers, a big smile and kindness for them. He is using his gifts. 

So if he is happy, able to take care of himself and using his gifts why should I keep hoping he'll go to college? I just had to open my heart to the idea that he could find happiness in a different way than I did. So I did.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Rain

[John L]

54 minutes ago, gopher said:

Do you believe there is no healthy way that a parent can hope for a child to return to church?

I don't think there is. Not until the church removes the word APOSTATE from its lexicon. Labeling a child an apostate because they choose to use free will, will usually always breed contention. LDS parents are in a tough spot when a child decides to leave the faith because the church has taught all its members there's only one true faith, and any path a child decides to walk outside of what the church has to offer is "less than." The teaching of everything is "less than" leaves LDS parents grieving for the wayward child, even if they're trying not to, the child will be able to tell how the parents feel. The ickiness that sometimes comes from the changing relationship between parent and wayward child is what will ultimately sever the relationship. 

A great proverb for what we're discussing. ARROGANCE LEADS ONLY TO STRIFE, BUT WISDOM IS WITH THE WELL ADVISED.  

It's my belief LDS parents who feel their child is losing a crucial part of their life when they choose to leave the church, need to possibly take a hard and difficult look at themselves and ask why they feel that way. Maybe it's not the child that needs to grow spiritually. 

 

[gopher]

11 minutes ago, John L said:

I don't think there is. Not until the church removes the word APOSTATE from its lexicon. Labeling a child an apostate because they choose to use free will, will usually always breed contention. LDS parents are in a tough spot when a child decides to leave the faith because the church has taught all its members there's only one true faith, and any path a child decides to walk outside of what the church has to offer is "less than." The teaching of everything is "less than" leaves LDS parents grieving for the wayward child, even if they're trying not to, the child will be able to tell how the parents feel. The ickiness that sometimes comes from the changing relationship between parent and wayward child is what will ultimately sever the relationship. 

A great proverb for what we're discussing. ARROGANCE LEADS ONLY TO STRIFE, BUT WISDOM IS WITH THE WELL ADVISED.  

It's my belief LDS parents who feel their child is losing a crucial part of their life when they choose to leave the church, need to possibly take a hard and difficult look at themselves and ask why they feel that way. Maybe it's not the child that needs to grow spiritually. 

 

Are you using the Church's definition of apostate?  It doesn't sound like you are.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng#title_number32

I think parents who truly love their children will find ways to avoid severing their relationship.  It's not easy, but not impossible.  It's definitely easier when both sides work together and lay off the unnecessarily heated rhetoric.

[John L]

8 minutes ago, gopher said:

Are you using the Church's definition of apostate?  It doesn't sound like you are.

Of course I am. Every LDS member knows what an apostate is. 

[John L]

38 minutes ago, gopher said:

It's not easy

It can be very simple once the parents understand it's their pride that is putting undo stress on the relationship with the wayward child. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by John L

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m in that boat.  I’m in a unique situation there, my son left college to pursue a trade. He absolutely loves it and is excelling. His father does pine for his son to go back to college and though he doesn’t say it out loud there is a clear tension between them around the topic. My husband cannot help but passively My husband cannot help but passively operate from a place that exposes his desire. This hurts my son deeply as he just wants his dad to be proud of him. operate from a place that exposes his desire. This hurts my son deeply as he just wants his dad to be proud of him.

This exactly. As a parent I want my children to be happy, whatever that means to THEM not to me. My parents desire for me to return tarnishes every interaction I have with them. 

[gopher]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Certainly. Also, how does this affect the child and the relationship between parent and son?  
 

And are we so certain that our church is the only way to feel joy? If our children feel something is unethical, is it wise to wish they would embrace it anyway? 

I just don't see how it would harm a relationship between a parent and son unless one or both act like real jerks.  It's actually been a positive in my case.

I'm certain many people feel joy outside our church.  And hopefully children trust their parents to help answer questions instead of relying on the Internet (except this site, of course).

[John L]

27 minutes ago, gopher said:

It's definitely easier when both sides work together and lay off the unnecessarily heated rhetoric

No matter the religion, there can be consequences a parent faces when they choose to baptize a child at a young age. Obviously, the parents feel like they're helping the child, but, if the child decides to walk his or her own path, the parents will almost always feel as if they're being rejected , especially if they have never really thought about a child leaving the faith. The other dilemma parents who baptize young children find themselves in, is trying to explain why they thought it was a good idea to put the child into a spiritual contract when the child wasn't mentally capable to choose because of their young age. I have a friend who has blamed his parents for 30 years for baptizing him into a faith that labels him an apostate for a decision he supposedly made at the age of 8. He's been on the outside of the family looking in most of his life because the family can't deal with him wanting to speak his mind. They rather ignore him. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by John L

[gopher]

15 minutes ago, John L said:

Of course I am. Every LDS member knows what an apostate is. 

"Labeling a child an apostate because they choose to use free will"

I didn't see that definition used anywhere in the church handbook.  The handbook clarifies who meets the definition of an apostate.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, gopher said:

And hopefully children trust their parents to help answer questions

I think parents assuming they have better answers than their grown children is part of the problem. 

[gopher]

5 minutes ago, John L said:

No matter the religion, there can be consequences a parent faces when they choose to baptize a child at a young age. Obviously, the parents feel like they're helping the child, but, if the child decides to walk his or her own path, the parents will almost always feel as if they're being rejected , especially if they have never really thought about a child leaving the faith. The other dilemma parents who baptize young children find themselves in, is trying to explain why they thought it was a good idea to put the child into a spiritual contract when the child wasn't mentally capable to choose because of their young age. I have a friend who has blamed his parents for 30 years for baptizing him into a faith that labels him an apostate for a decision he supposedly made at the age of 8. He's been on the outside of the family looking in most of his life because the family can't deal with him wanting to speak his mind. They rather ignore him. 

I don't excuse the behavior of your friend's family.  I agree it's wrong.

[John L]

4 minutes ago, gopher said:

I didn't see that definition

It's in my screenshot above. It says "when INDIVIDUALS or groups of people turn away from principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy." Pretty self explanatory in my opinion. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

Do you believe there is no healthy way that a parent can hope for a child to return to church?

And, of course, what Calm said.

No, I believe there can be a very healthy way. And that is for the parents/parent to accept that everyone is different. And their child should use the free agency given them in the church. Also, I was reading something the other day about how children are taught certain ways from the very beginning and weren't taught they can believe another way or choose their walk in a faith of their choosing. So inevitably it is all in what the parents believe on how the child will be taught to believe. We should give them an out if it isn't what they believe. Give them the freedom to choose, maybe even learning of other faiths out there. My years in Primary and sharing time with the songs etc. it's brainwashing, IMO. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Tacenda

[gopher]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think parents assuming they have better answers than their grown children is part of the problem. 

Well, the OP was about a 16 year old boy.  He's brain isn't fully formed yet so it's possible he doesn't have the best answers yet.  It's helpful to have parents with a bit more experience to guide him.

But I agree, grown children are a different situation and parents have to let them make their own decisions.

[gopher]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No, I believe there can be a very healthy way. And that is for the parents/parent to accept that everyone is different. And their child should use the free agency given them in the church. Also, I was reading something the other day about how children are taught certain ways from the very beginning and weren't taught they can belief another way or choose their walk in a faith of their choosing. So inevitably it is all in what the parents believe on how the child will be taught to believe. And how we shouldn't be doing that. We should give them an out if it isn't what they believe. Give them the freedom to choose, maybe even learning of other faiths out there. My years in Primary and sharing time with the songs etc. it's brainwashing, IMO. 

Ok, now you are being silly.

[John L]

1 minute ago, gopher said:

He's brain isn't fully formed yet so it's possible he doesn't have the best answers yet.

If his brain wasn't fully formed at sixteen, how was he mature enough to enter a spiritual contract at the age of 8? Accepting the baptismal covenant is probably the most important decision we will make in our life. Shouldn't we make that decision with a fully formed brain?