My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Maybe you did but I didn't and most Church members didn't either. They do have it both ways. We try to represent God but because we are human sometimes we don't. Our agency allows us to choose not to sometimes.

Plus church leaders teach there is a lot of variation in people’s situations (young mothers are not expected to go on mission or spend hours a day or week doing family history, etc) so the way commandments are filled are not a one size fits all.  This means there will be a massive amount of personal choice in how we go about serving/representing God and others. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

9 hours ago, John L said:

Not until the church removes the word APOSTATE from its lexicon.

Why should the church remove the word apostate from its lexicon?

The definition of apostate is:

a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.

According to this definition, the word apostate is appropriate for people who leave the church or renounce core beliefs of the church. What's wrong with calling things by the correct name?

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Why should the church remove the word apostate from its lexicon?

The definition of apostate is:

a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.

According to this definition, the word apostate is appropriate for people who leave the church or renounce core beliefs of the church. What's wrong with calling things by the correct name?

Connotation

Edited January 17, 2023 by Rain

[Grug the Neanderthal]

35 minutes ago, Rain said:

Connotation

What about it?

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, manol said:

Elder Scott didn't say it would be easy, but he did say “find some way to trust them”.   Doing so may call upon us to go outside of our normal comfort zone.

I think part of “find[ing] some way to trust them”  would be that we not treasure our grievances. Our grievances offer us nothing of value no matter how “justified” they are. The price of treasuring our grievances is our happiness, and that price is the same whether or not our grievances are "justified".

Therefore, forgiveness is a gift we give to ourselves. 

Jesus did not say to forgive seventy times seven conditional upon the other person meeting our criteria for deserving forgiveness. He simply said to forgive seventy times seven, and I take that to mean “forgive without keeping score.” (He also said that we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, so he's not telling us to be stupid either.)

What would it feel like to let go of all sense of having been betrayed? Wouldn't it feel wonderful to lay that cumbersome burden aside? Doing so is a choice that can be made without having to wait for any change in the other person. 

Imo we won't get to bring our litany of grievances (including betrayals) into heaven with us, so we might as well set down that baggage now. 

The talk and quote you used do not address betrayal, abuse, addiction, abandonment, etc. Forgiveness and trust may take years of hard work, faith in the Lord, patience, prayer, and even counseling to restore. And even then, it may require severing relations to preserve one’s sanity or even one’s life. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, John L said:

Free agency is given at birth, once we're baptized, our agency is to represent God, we're not free to choose anymore. That's why the hymn is titled CHOOSE THE RIGHT, not choose what you want.

And there is this….

Quote

"The submission of one's will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God's altar. The many other things we 'give,' brothers and sisters, are actually the things He has already given or loaned to us. However, when you and I finally submit ourselves, by letting our individual wills be swallowed up in God's will, then we are really giving something to Him! It is the only possession which is truly ours to give!

"Consecration thus constitutes the only unconditional surrender which is also a total victory!"

- Neal A. Maxwell, "'Swallowed Up in the Will of the Father'," Ensign, Nov 1995, pp. 22-24

 

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As a parent I want my children to be happy, whatever that means to THEM not to me. My parents desire for me to return tarnishes every interaction I have with them. 
 

Did you mean to say, “My parental desire for them to return to me tarnishes…?”

I think about it this way:

As our Father, God wants His children to be happy, which means He hopes they will have immortality and eternal life. Father’s desire for me to return to him burnishes every interaction He has with me. That is His example of how we should treat our children. 
 

[gopher]

17 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And if the brain being fully formed is a standard (which doesn’t happen until mid to late twenties) but what right does the church allow endowments, missionaries and marriage before that age?

 Because no one except you and JohnL are saying it should be a standard?  My point in mentioning brain development in youth was to state the importance of parents helping to guide their decisions.  I think there are many important decisions made by youth in and out the church before their brains are fully formed.  Maybe making those types decisions is what helps our brains fully form and develop?

[John L]

9 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Why should the church remove the word apostate from its lexicon?

Because we baptize 8 year olds. I don't know about you, but I don't trust an 8 year old to be able to do much of anything, especially when it comes to signing or promising to make lifelong or eternal commitments. Here's the situation as I see it. We baptize 8 year olds, expect them to understand the eternal consequences they're promising, expect them to keep the promises for life, but when they grow older and more mature and want to explore and use their "so called freedom" and leave the church, we slap the label APOSTATE on them because they dishonor the spiritual contract made at the age of 8.  How does that makes sense? 

 

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What's wrong with calling things by the correct name?

Tell ya what then, if one of your children leaves the church, please take the opportunity to call them an apostate whenever you feel like it, and see how that turns out for ya. 

[John L]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

Connotation

 

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What about it

What about it? The word apostate and the meaning it has inside the church, has everything to do with the opening post. Maj explained his or her son doesn't want to attend church anymore so there's a good chance his or her son will be labeled an apostate from some of the LDS members in their area. The way leaders of our church have defined what an apostate is, has ruined more than one relationship between LDS parents and a LDS child. My early years in the church, I looked at members who left the church as weak individuals who did not have a strong enough testimony to hold back the evil temptation Satan and his soldiers were trying to persuade them with on a daily basis. Seeing them leave the church filled me with pride. I was happy God loved me so much, he would never let me fall to the temptation like the weak apostates all around me. In a very sick way, seeing my fellow saints leave the church strengthened my testimony when I was young. 

Here's two screen shots from our official website. You can find them under "How to prevent personal apostasy." How do you feel about how Brigham Young explains what an apostate is? 

Edited January 17, 2023 by John L

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, John L said:

Tell ya what then, if one of your children leaves the church, please take the opportunity to call them an apostate whenever you feel like it, and see how that turns out for ya. 

We have a recently converted family in our ward who were inactive Catholics, do we call them apostates or converts?

When we agree with a person's decision regarding religion we call it conversion, when we disagree with it, we call it apostacy.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The talk and quote you used do not address betrayal, abuse, addiction, abandonment, etc. Forgiveness and trust may take years of hard work, faith in the Lord, patience, prayer, and even counseling to restore. And even then, it may require severing relations to preserve one’s sanity or even one’s life. 

None of which relates even tangentially to the topic at hand which is a child leaving the church. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Did you mean to say, “My parental desire for them to return to me tarnishes…?”

I think about it this way:

As our Father, God wants His children to be happy, which means He hopes they will have immortality and eternal life. Father’s desire for me to return to him burnishes every interaction He has with me. That is His example of how we should treat our children. 
 

You can think about it however you want. From the perspective of the 45 year old child (with six kids of my own), my parents desire strains and tarnishes every interaction I have with them. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You can think about it however you want. From the perspective of the 45 year old child (with six kids of my own), my parents desire strains and tarnishes every interaction I have with them. 

Thanks for the permission. 😏

Not everyone sees things this way. The path our Father has shown us is so much better. We can observe it through the various ways Lehi, the father of the prodigal son, and the two Alma’s handled their wayward children. It’s plain to see which hands have the chocolate.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, John L said:

 

What about it? The word apostate and the meaning it has inside the church, has everything to do with the opening post. Maj explained his or her son doesn't want to attend church anymore so there's a good chance his or her son will be labeled an apostate from some of the LDS members in their area. The way leaders of our church have defined what an apostate is, has ruined more than one relationship between LDS parents and a LDS child. My early years in the church, I looked at members who left the church as weak individuals who did not have a strong enough testimony to hold back the evil temptation Satan and his soldiers were trying to persuade them with on a daily basis. Seeing them leave the church filled me with pride. I was happy God loved me so much, he would never let me fall to the temptation like the weak apostates all around me. In a very sick way, seeing my fellow saints leave the church strengthened my testimony when I was young. 

There is seriously a middle ground with what you are saying and the idea it's ok to call every non believer apostate.  There is definitely a connotation with "apostate' of willful disobedience, but you are painting with a big brush when you imply your feelings are common. Oh, I have no doubt that some people feel prideful about it all, but so much of our teachings are about not being prideful, not praying on the tower, not being perfect, everyone needing Christ etc. Not being able to do it on our own is the whole basis of the church. If someone if feeling prideful that they are righteous and others have left they missed the whole point of Christ.

1 hour ago, John L said:

Here's two screen shots from our official website. You can find them under "How to prevent personal apostasy." How do you feel about how Brigham Young explains what an apostate is? 

 

[Bernard Gui]

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

None of which relates even tangentially to the topic at hand which is a child leaving the church. 

How so? My participation in this discussion is based on this earlier post...

Quote

Sister Gui and I have two sons who left the Church as teenagers, and 8 of my 9 nephews and nieces did the same. Unless one has personally experienced it, there is no way to express adequately the chaos it creates. For a number of years we had little or no contact. After 17 years of anguish, we are finally seeing hopeful and positive changes. 

While working as a service missionary in the LDS Addiction Recovery program (family and loved ones’ support), I compiled a booklet of several talks and quotes from past and present LDS leaders who have dealt with the issue. We and many of our friends have found it to be very helpful. Perhaps there is some way I can get it to you. 

One of the best is “Keeping the Door Open and the Stew Hot:
Loving and Helping a Wayward Child” by Marvin K. Gardner in the August 1982 Ensign.

…and the ensuing discussion of setting boundaries for children who leave the Church but are living at home. In many cases this involves behaviors that bring chaos into the home.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for the permission. 😏

Not everyone sees things this way.
 

Sure. People are free to value their relationship with God (whatever that means to them) over maintaining earthly relationships. Such decisions have consequences though. 

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The path our Father has shown us is so much better.
 

Except you are dealing with someone that STRONGLY disagrees with that. So strongly that they risked all their relationships to leave. If you lack the humility to grant everyone to choose a path that works for them, and lack the humility to acknowledge that their path might actually be better for them (based on their lived life experiences), you will have a subpar relationship with them at best. 

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We can observe it through the various ways Lehi, the father of the prodigal son, and the two Alma’s handled their wayward children. It’s plain to see which hands have the chocolate.

All made up stories (FWIW). 

[John L]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

their decisions

At the age of 8, is it really their decision? I'm asking that with a sincere heart. 

Would you not agree making an eternal covenant with an eternal God is a huge life altering decision? 

Here's the nitty-gritty. When a couple are sealed together, and the children are sealed to the parents, right now in the church, we're taught any child that chooses to leave the church are rejecting an eternity with us in heaven. That sets up a scenario where the parents look down on the child that exercised their "free agency." What I'm trying to explain, maybe I'm doing a terrible job at it, but it's my opinion from years of experience, LDS parents almost never accept the "wayward" child as righteous compared to the child's siblings. They may outwardly accept them through invites, presents, babysitting and so on, but internally and spiritually, which matters the most, the wayward child almost always is looked upon with pity and disappointment. The feelings the parents have towards the wayward child will have lasting implications that will sometimes affect the relationship with grandchildren and great grandchildren. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by John L

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

How so? My participation in this discussion is based on this earlier post...

…and the ensuing discussion of setting boundaries for children who leave the Church but are living at home. 

Sure you brought it up, but abuse, betrayal etc have nothing to do with leaving the church. Can both happen at the same time? Sure. But they have nothing to do with each other. If you experienced trauma over their decision to not follow your beliefs, if you cut off contact to “protect” children living at home, that’s on you. 

But I assume there is more to the story than you are sharing. And if there is more, it has nothing to do with OP and nothing to do with a decision to leave the church (unless you are naive enough to assume there is no addiction betrayal and trauma in those that are members of the church)  

 

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You can think about it however you want. From the perspective of the 45 year old child (with six kids of my own), my parents desire strains and tarnishes every interaction I have with them. 

I can absolutely see this happening. I just spoke with my wife yesterday about our 21-yr old son who has left the faith. I don't want him to perceive my disappointment (and there is some) for fear that it will continue to drive him (along with his wife and potential children) away from a relationship not only with myself and my wife but also his two sisters (one is serving a mission) as well as nieces and nephews that will inevitably follow soon. It is a particularly difficult transition. I suspect he is not comfortable talking about it with me because he knows my activation and to some extent my disappointment. I had an enjoyable morning of pickleball and breakfast with him yesterday morning. I want this to be the norm though as has been said on this thread already, there is more work to be done behind my own eyeballs.   

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Sure you brought it up, but abuse, betrayal etc have nothing to do with leaving the church. Can both happen at the same time? Sure. But they have nothing to do with each other. If you experienced trauma over their decision to not follow your beliefs, if you cut off contact to “protect” children living at home, that’s on you. 

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I’ll consider it for a moment.
OK. I considered it.
 

Quote

But I assume there is more to the story than you are sharing. And if there is more, it has nothing to do with OP and nothing to do with a decision to leave the church (unless you are naive enough to assume there is no addiction betrayal and trauma in those that are members of the church)  
 

I’m not sure what you meant by being naïve. Please explain.

There are numerous reasons why a child leaves the Church. In our years of service in the Addiction Recovery Program we met many parents whose children left the Church because of or resulting in behaviors that brought disruption into their homes. Some of that chaos included incarceration, addiction, violence, debt, alienation, and death.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m not sure what you meant by this.

I’m saying if you experienced trauma, betrayal, chaos, loss of trust, and cut off contact merely over a child’s decision to leave the church, that has everything to do with you and nothing to do with them. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[gopher]

1 hour ago, John L said:

At the age of 8, is it really their decision? I'm asking that with a sincere heart. 

Absolutely.  Best calling in the church by far is teaching 7 years and helping to prepare them for baptism.

1 hour ago, John L said:

Would you not agree making an eternal covenant with an eternal God is a huge life altering decision? 

Absolutely.  That's why it's important to start making them starting at 8 years of age.

1 hour ago, John L said:

Here's the nitty-gritty. When a couple are sealed together, and the children are sealed to the parents, right now in the church, we're taught any child that chooses to leave the church are rejecting an eternity with us in heaven. That sets up a scenario where the parents look down on the child that exercised their "free agency." What I'm trying to explain, maybe I'm doing a terrible job at it, but it's my opinion from years of experience, LDS parents almost never accept the "wayward" child as righteous compared to the child's siblings. They may outwardly accept them through invites, presents, babysitting and so on, but internally and spiritually, which matters the most, the wayward child almost always is looked upon with pity and disappointment. The feelings the parents have towards the wayward child will have lasting implications that will sometimes affect the relationship with grandchildren and great grandchildren. 

You make an interesting argument for children to stay in the church.  But I think a better argument is for parents to demonstrate the same love for all their children and for children to use their "free agency" to make a sincere effort to get a testimony of Jesus Christ and the restored Gospel.  Only God knows if any of us have put forth the required effort so parents will have to accept the choices their children make.

[CA Steve]

15 minutes ago, gopher said:

Absolutely.  Best calling in the church by far is teaching 7 years and helping to prepare them for baptism.

Would you ask the same child to commit to which college he/she was going to attend? Or which profession he/she was going to pursue. Why not ask them to commit to which spouse is best for them?

8 years old is too young to even vaguely understand what a baptismal covenant entails. All we are doing at that age is conditioning them. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m saying if you experienced trauma, betrayal, chaos, loss of trust, and cut off contact merely over a child’s decision to leave the church, that has everything to do with you and nothing to do with them. 

I’ve explained numerous times that I am not talking about merely a decision. You must know that, right?
 

Is this “you” the personal or generic “you”?