My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

We decided to relate with our two wayward sons as we would with any other non-member.

As far as religion went only, .I hope, because it would be weird to treat a family member like a non family member.

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

As far as religion went only, .I hope, because it would be weird to treat a family member like a non family member.

In some other ways, too. Expectations, behavior, aspirations, politics, among others.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

When you say that "this simply does not work" for your grandson and simply didn't work for your own son, what do you mean?

Are you saying that no consequence, whether a punishment or reward, had any impact whatsoever on influencing their actions? Because if that's the case, I would find that very hard to believe. 

If you meant something else can you please clarify? 

Some people call punishments, rewards etc currency.  When you find your child's currency it makes tons of differences how they behave.  Like put a child in time out and they then might behave.  For others all you have to do is give them a look. 

But I've also found that some children have no currency or at least deeply hidden currency.  It doesn't seem to matter what you do as it doesn't change their behavior. The only thing that matters is what they learn by experience and sometimes it's an awful lot of experience they have to have before changing. So all you can do is love them throughout that experience.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

But I've also found that some children have no currency or at least deeply hidden currency.  It doesn't seem to matter what you do as it doesn't change their behavior. The only thing that matters is what they learn by experience and sometimes it's an awful lot of experience they have to have before changing. So all you can do is love them throughout that experience.

Of course punishments and rewards don't always change behavior on a dime. Kids have their own personalities and are who they are. But what parents do or don't matters and has a huge influence on the child. And loving them throughout a difficult experience includes continuing to hold them accountable for their actions. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

, I would find that very hard to believe. 

Your ignorance is showing once again. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Your ignorance is showing once again. 

How so?

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please define righteous.

Would you give me an example?

 

Per the discussion that was going on that you replied to, righteous as the opposite of unrighteous as it’s used in D&C 121:6-37. 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Big believer in tough love. But let’s head this off at the pass. When my kids (4) were young teenagers I made it very clear about adult activities. This was way before it would have even occurred to them to engage in rebellious behavior. I reinforced this by showing all of them good adult activities. During high school my three sons were sponsored RC racers. Sponsored by me. Every Wednesday night for many years. This activity taught them a lot.  Every once in a while we would have a one on one weekend. Camping, riding local train rides, Disneyland one to one etc. I’m an avid motorcycle rider, so this was also something to do together.   But most long weekends were one on one. 
Now all my kids are my best friends. 

It's really about the time we put in, for sure. Well, maybe I shouldn't say for sure, it may not work for everyone. But your idea of putting their focus on something constructive was a good way. And instilling them self acceptance by doing something that takes practice and focus and getting a feeling of accomplishment.

Was reading a book recently on how our children are indoctrinated at such young ages and not given a human right to choose on their own what choices they have for any kind of belief. Not really what you're saying here, but thought I'd add it. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/12/2023 at 9:21 AM, bluebell said:

Per the discussion that was going on that you replied to, righteous as the opposite of unrighteous as it’s used in D&C 121:6-37. 
 

Quote

When they exercise unnecessary or excessive control, dominion, or compulsion in order to gratify their pride or vain ambition, instead of using an appropriate amount out of love and concern for their child's well-being or the well-being of others, such as younger siblings. 

This one? ☝️

Example of a boundary: “We will not allow drugs in our home.”

How can this be enforced “righteously”?

An example of a consequence: “If you bring drugs into our home, we will…..” Fill in the blank with a “righteous” consequence that can be enforced.

An example of a boundary and a consequence: “If you talk to me that way I will end the conversation immediately and walk away.” 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:58 AM, Rain said:

Some people call punishments, rewards etc currency.  When you find your child's currency it makes tons of differences how they behave.  Like put a child in time out and they then might behave.  For others all you have to do is give them a look. 

But I've also found that some children have no currency or at least deeply hidden currency.  It doesn't seem to matter what you do as it doesn't change their behavior. The only thing that matters is what they learn by experience and sometimes it's an awful lot of experience they have to have before changing. So all you can do is love them throughout that experience.

When drugs and other compulsive behaviors enter the picture they become the currency.

[RAD DAD]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:29 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps one thing that could help is if parents in this situation realized that everyone, including themselves, is being influenced by Satan (and the world and the flesh), not just their child. Also, they are assuming they will be in a higher kingdom while the child will be in a lower kingdom. Perhaps some humility regarding their state of salvation and a lack of judgement of their child's state of salvation could help, too.

 

On 1/11/2023 at 1:29 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps one thing that could help is if parents in this situation realized that everyone, including themselves, is being influenced by Satan (and the world and the flesh), not just their child

Very true. But look at it this way. The LDS faith allows parents who have been sealed, to mold heaven into a version they feel would make them happiest once they are accepted into the Celestial Kingdom. So when a sealed mom and dad have their children sealed to them for eternity, having one of those children leave the faith isn't just heartbreaking, many parents become angry and feel as if the child is rejecting the parents version of what heaven looks like. Once a LDS child rejects the parents belief system, the parents will default to "don't you realize what we have given, don't you realize what you're giving up if you leave the church!" It's extremely difficult for LDS parents not to let the disappointment oooze from every pore in their body. The profound disappointment most parents won't let go of, is what will ultimately sever the relationship with the child. No matter what the parents do, how nice they are, how giving they are, a child can only take so much, and knowing his parents are disappointed because that child ruined "heaven" for them, is a weight the child will eventually become tired of caring. The LDS faith finds comfort and strength in thinking as a collective body, and when a member of the collective body decides to turn around and face the other way, there's discomfort and most members have a difficult time figuring out how to deal with it. 

  

 

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Very true. But look at it this way. The LDS faith allows parents who have been sealed, to mold heaven into a version they feel would make them happiest once they are accepted into the Celestial Kingdom. So when a sealed mom and dad have their children sealed to them for eternity, having one of those children leave the faith isn't just heartbreaking, many parents become angry and feel as if the child is rejecting the parents version of what heaven looks like. Once a LDS child rejects the parents belief system, the parents will default to "don't you realize what we have given, don't you realize what you're giving up if you leave the church!" It's extremely difficult for LDS parents not to let the disappointment oooze from every pore in their body. The profound disappointment most parents won't let go of, is what will ultimately sever the relationship with the child. No matter what the parents do, how nice they are, how giving they are, a child can only take so much, and knowing his parents are disappointed because that child ruined "heaven" for them, is a weight the child will eventually become tired of caring. The LDS faith finds comfort and strength in thinking as a collective body, and when a member of the collective body decides to turn around and face the other way, there's discomfort and most members have a difficult time figuring out how to deal with it. 

Not my experience. Not even close.

[Rain]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

I briefly mentioned Elder Scott, but I'm not sure I linked this talk.  Please forgive me if I did.  This is probably my favorite conference talk and it so fits your situation as it did and does mine.  It's beautiful.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by Rain

[manol]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I briefly mentioned Elder Scott, but I'm not sure I linked this talk.  Please forgive me if I did.  This is probably might favorite conference talk and it so fits your situation as it did as does mine.  It's beautiful.  

Agreed!

Many years ago when I was active LDS, Richard G. Scott's talks were often the ones that spoke the most deeply to me.

From the talk at your link, emphasis mine:

"Remember, loving them is the powerful foundation for influencing those you want to help... As a companion to that love, trust them. In some cases it may seem difficult to trust, but find some way to trust them. The children of Father in Heaven can do amazing things when they feel trusted. Every child of God in mortality chose the Savior’s plan. Trust that given the opportunity, they will do so again."

In this context mistrust is condemnation, and condemnation creates and maintains barriers.  Trust and love remove barriers, open doors, and keep them open for as long as needed.  

Infinite patience has instant effects.  

In my opinion.

Edited January 15, 2023 by manol

[gopher]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:12 PM, maj said:

His mother and I are divorced and I have no other children. So, family home evening was just me and him.

 

At least you can have some hope that he may come back since he's too young to have experienced all that the church has to offer.  It's unlikely the former believers here will ever come back since they've already served missions, married in the temple, served in important callings, etc.  They know what the church has to offer them and are no longer interested.

[MustardSeed]

22 minutes ago, gopher said:

At least you can have some hope that he may come back since he's too young to have experienced all that the church has to offer.  It's unlikely the former believers here will ever come back since they've already served missions, married in the temple, served in important callings, etc.  They know what the church has to offer them and are no longer interested.

Is It reasonable to set aside a need for hope for change and to simply accept the child’s decision? Can there not just be joy in life for parents, full stop? It seems to me that a child will feel more love and freedom to come back when the parent isn’t pining away for something different. 
 

this may be a bad example but my son played football.  He was on a team that went national- they were great, and my son was the largest boy on the team.  Most of the parents were INTO it, and talked the talk of their sons eventually going pro. 

My son decided at 15 to quit football and go into theater. Talk about 180! I can’t imagine the disappointment of other parents had it been their child. 
 

We loved LOVED attending games.  We missed that.  But not sorrowfully- and never out loud to him.  Instead, we now LOVED wholeheartedly going to performances.  It was fun, plus very little risk of injury!  But other football parents stopped talking to us, whatever.  I’d assume they were upset he left the team to be a thespian. Im sure they would have died if it had been their sons.  Some of them did go on to make it big.  Now my son neither acts nor plays ball- he also left college and left the church and has dived into trades and is killing it.  I wouldn’t dream of wishing he’d stayed in football. Or anything else.  My biggest challenge is wishing the girl he loves would change her mind about wanting marriage and children because I fear some day he might regret not ever having that- but even that is beyond my control and I need to remember the reality that life is very fulfilling for many people who don’t go down those paths.  
 

now I’m rambling. 

[manol]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Is It reasonable to set aside a need for hope for change and to simply accept the child’s decision? Can there not just be joy in life for parents, full stop? It seems to me that a child will feel more love and freedom to come back when the parent isn’t pining away for something different. 
 

this may be a bad example but my son played football.  He was on a team that went national- they were great, and my son was the largest boy on the team.  Most of the parents were INTO it, and talked the talk of their sons eventually going pro. 

My son decided at 15 to quit football and go into theater. Talk about 180! I can’t imagine the disappointment of other parents had it been their child. 
 

We loved LOVED attending games.  We missed that.  But not sorrowfully- and never out loud to him.  Instead, we now LOVED wholeheartedly going to performances.  It was fun, plus very little risk of injury!  But other football parents stopped talking to us, whatever.  I’d assume they were upset he left the team to be a thespian. Im sure they would have died if it had been their sons.  Some of them did go on to make it big.  Now my son neither acts nor plays ball- he also left college and left the church and has dived into trades and is killing it.  I wouldn’t dream of wishing he’d stayed in football. Or anything else.  My biggest challenge is wishing the girl he loves would change her mind about wanting marriage and children because I fear some day he might regret not ever having that- but even that is beyond my control and I need to remember the reality that life is very fulfilling for many people who don’t go down those paths. 

That's beautiful.  Imo that's the way it ought to be.

"To love is to be happy with."  - Serge Kahili King

Edited January 15, 2023 by manol

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Is It reasonable to set aside a need for hope for change and to simply accept the child’s decision? Can there not just be joy in life for parents, full stop? It seems to me that a child will feel more love and freedom to come back when the parent isn’t pining away for something different. 
 

this may be a bad example but my son played football.  He was on a team that went national- they were great, and my son was the largest boy on the team.  Most of the parents were INTO it, and talked the talk of their sons eventually going pro. 

My son decided at 15 to quit football and go into theater. Talk about 180! I can’t imagine the disappointment of other parents had it been their child. 
 

We loved LOVED attending games.  We missed that.  But not sorrowfully- and never out loud to him.  Instead, we now LOVED wholeheartedly going to performances.  It was fun, plus very little risk of injury!  But other football parents stopped talking to us, whatever.  I’d assume they were upset he left the team to be a thespian. Im sure they would have died if it had been their sons.  Some of them did go on to make it big.  Now my son neither acts nor plays ball- he also left college and left the church and has dived into trades and is killing it.  I wouldn’t dream of wishing he’d stayed in football. Or anything else.  My biggest challenge is wishing the girl he loves would change her mind about wanting marriage and children because I fear some day he might regret not ever having that- but even that is beyond my control and I need to remember the reality that life is very fulfilling for many people who don’t go down those paths.  
 

now I’m rambling. 

Not rambling at all, it hit close to home what you're saying. I have three sons, two resigned from the church the youngest child doesn't care either way. I don't know if I'll get any grandchildren from any of them. I just try to button up and try to accept that it's not for everyone, having a family. My oldest son has been married for several years, and they act like they could have a child or adopt but it's not imminent at the moment, since daughter in law is studying to be a councilor. My other son lives with an awesome young woman who shares being a former believing active LDS. But I've no idea if they'll have children, he's said he wants to propose to her but he hasn't yet. My youngest son is dating a girl from Ecuador and she's a nanny and very nice and she taught school in Ecuador and saved her money to come to America. So who knows what will happen there. I guess you just love your kids and hope for the best. Now I'm rambling...

[Calm]

When my daughter’s life first got really complicated and I was both panicked and angry because I was clueless on how I could manage caring for her and dealing with my own health problems (I was angry because I had just a few months before gotten to a point I could put my own needs first and for the first time in decades I was getting control of my health and angry because my daughter had inherited at least one of my health issues, which I was thinking was going to make dealing with her diabetes very difficult…I was overly optimistic actually on that one), I had a one on one with the Lord and he let me know that it was my daughter’s life and path and not mine and I was there to support her and not live it for her.  And most important that there was no need to worry because she would get there in the end.  I have no clue what “there” is, but if God is okay with it, I am too.  
 

So when other changes in my expectations and desires for her came and come, there is pain, but I deal with it and keep doing what I do for and with her and she does the same with me.  And while it hurts that now she finds no value for herself in the Church or believing in God, it hurts because I know what a comfort awareness of God’s presence in my life has been for me and I wish she had that, but I am not disappointed in her and certainly have no fear of losing her to anything save illness and that would be temporary. I don’t know what relationship I will have with her eternally, but I know she will be in God’s family and in his care and she will be where she needs and wants to be to have the most joy possible for her and that is all that matters to me, so why should I be disappointed.

It is quite possible to be a devout, fully committed to eternal families church member without being disappointed that your kids are inactive or even atheists.  I am not condemning in the least parents who struggle with that though. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/15/2023 at 12:28 AM, manol said:

Agreed!

Many years ago when I was active LDS, Richard G. Scott's talks were often the ones that spoke the most deeply to me.

From the talk at your link, emphasis mine:

"Remember, loving them is the powerful foundation for influencing those you want to help... As a companion to that love, trust them. In some cases it may seem difficult to trust, but find some way to trust them. The children of Father in Heaven can do amazing things when they feel trusted. Every child of God in mortality chose the Savior’s plan. Trust that given the opportunity, they will do so again."

In this context mistrust is condemnation, and condemnation creates and maintains barriers.  Trust and love remove barriers, open doors, and keep them open for as long as needed.  

Infinite patience has instant effects.  

In my opinion.

Trust is one of the first casualties of a betrayal or a failing relationship. It is usually the last thing to be restored. 

[gopher]

22 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Is It reasonable to set aside a need for hope for change and to simply accept the child’s decision? Can there not just be joy in life for parents, full stop? It seems to me that a child will feel more love and freedom to come back when the parent isn’t pining away for something different. 

Of course parents should be happy to celebrate their children's successes and mourn with them when needed whether the child is in the church or out.  But I don't want to dismiss the feelings of parents who struggle when a child leaves the church.  It may take some time, but I've seen some good examples of families that were able to work it out.  I realize it's more interesting to discuss those that can't.

Are you also suggesting parents should stop hoping (pining?) their child will return to the church?  Just want to make sure I understand.  I think it's that hope that helps provides joy in life for many parents who have children who leave the church.

I think most parents are capable of doing both.  Or they will eventually learn to do both (if they choose).

 

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, gopher said:

Of course parents should be happy to celebrate their children's successes and mourn with them when needed whether the child is in the church or out.  But I don't want to dismiss the feelings of parents who struggle when a child leaves the church.  It may take some time, but I've seen some good examples of families that were able to work it out.  I realize it's more interesting to discuss those that can't.

Are you also suggesting parents should stop hoping (pining?) their child will return to the church?  Just want to make sure I understand.  I think it's that hope that helps provides joy in life for many parents who have children who leave the church.

I think most parents are capable of doing both.  Or they will eventually learn to do both (if they choose).

 

I think it would be healthy for the child and the parent, for the parent to quit pining for their child's return to church, much more healthy if they don't do that. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I think it would be healthy for the child and the parent, for the parent to quit pining for their child's return to church, much more healthy if they don't do that. 

I think it depends on how “pining” is done because not hoping for your child to have the best things in life seems just wrong to me.  And many of us believe the Church is one those best things. 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it depends on how “pining” is done because not hoping for your child to have the best things in life seems just wrong to me.  And many of us believe the Church is one those best things. 

Oh, I mean't some parents who only concentrate on their inactivity. Last night I listened to the best talks by Elder and Sister Holland. He brought up faith crisis at 1:05.25 min. in and I liked what he said. But it does make it tough on parents if they listen to the rest of what he says about exaltation, and that would put them in a spot of worrying over inactivity or unbelief in the church.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

By nature of our religion, we are taught to believe there is only one way.  I suppose if there is only one way, grief from the losses associated with children doing life any other way is inevitable. 

I’m having a hard time articulating what I experience.