My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[YJacket]

23 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I agree with both Tacenda and Seeking - You have the right to say 'not in my house' and you should IMO, but I would make sure and tell him that you know that likley won't stop him, and that you want him to protect his and his girlfriend's future for sure.

If he ain't gonna listen on no sex . . .why in Heaven's name is he going to listen on "use protection".  I truly do not understand.

[MustardSeed]

24 minutes ago, YJacket said:

If he ain't gonna listen on no sex . . .why in Heaven's name is he going to listen on "use protection".  I truly do not understand.

It seems like you are stating that it’s important to tell a kid not to have sex but that you believe you’re wasting your time teaching about birth control or protection. If that’s the case, that’s unfortunate. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by MustardSeed

[YJacket]

Just now, MustardSeed said:

Good luck to you sir. Either you’re actually going through this or you’re not. The question the OP had is how can he maintain a relationship with a child. Your objective is different. That’s OK too.

Actually my objective is the same.  

When a child under my roof as a parent decides to engage in behavior that is destructive or seriously detrimental to their well-being what is the proper parental response?

Is the proper response, "well, if you are going to do x, just make sure you do y!".  Which I truly do not understand this line of reasoning.  They already are not obeying x, so why would they possibly obey y.

Well, I don't approve of you having out-of-wedlock sex, but if you do use protection.
Well, I don't approve of you shooting up, but if you do use clean needles.
Well, I don't approve of you not going to Church, but if you do it's all great.

16 is not an adult. I have rules in my house and everyone is obligated to follow the rules.  If a child does not want to follow the house rules (i.e. act as if they are living on their own), that is fine-they can start paying rent, room and board.

Literally, my obligation is to provide, food, clothing, shelter.  I want to provide a whole host of other things . . .however those things are not obligations.  I am under no obligation to take kids to band camp, sporting events, movies, etc.  I want to do those things-but they ain't obligations.

So if a child starts to act up and be a little too big for his/her britches, well . . .there are some easy fixes for that. The amount of things that I want to provide starts to shrink and shrink and shrink until if the child doesn't wise up it gets to the bare basics.

Clearly as a child grow up, the amount of things that they have more flexibilty and freedom for should be expanded . . .but always commiserate with their level of maturity. A slacker kid who doesn't show up to classes (or potentially Church) . . . well that 16 year old is going to have a lot harder time than a mature, hard-working 16 year-old kid . . who maybe doesn't show up to church and maybe deserves a little slack (or maybe he/she doesn't b/c the kid needs some self-discipline in his/her life). 

Is the kid just going to play video games during the hours everyone is gone to church?  If the kid thinks that's what is going to happen-he's got another thing coming.  Sure, don't go to church.  You've got 2-3 hours, I need lots of things done around the house.  Here is your list, see that it gets done.
 

[YJacket]

10 minutes ago, Balaam said:

1) it is wrong to have sex before marriage

2) it is even worse if sex before marriage results in the birth of children

So, yes, please focus on trying to teach your child as well as you can about rule 1, but also say that if you choose to disregard rule 1 then please at least follow rule 2 so that your child will not make matters even worse for all 3 people involved.

And if all of that fails, you can still teach your child about how to fix things after making mistakes

I don't believe "it's worse" if it results in a child.  I think it might actually be better.

The more partners women have the less likely they are able to actually bond to their eventual spouse.  If sex out-of-wedlock produces a child and binds the mother father together, that might be a better solution than the woman have 4-5 different partners and never being able to bond to her husband.

[YJacket]

3 minutes ago, Balaam said:

My point was about how parents should focus on being good teachers for their own children.  Even the best of parents have children who rebel against them and disregard their counsel, but still parents should always strive to be good teachers for their  own children, even if only by being good examples of how to make good decisions. If I have somehow given the impression that my own children always do everything I say they should do, and they never do anything I say they should not do, then I humbly apologize for somehow giving you that impression.  My world doesn't work that way.

I totally agree with you.

[YJacket]

11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

It seems like you are stating that it’s important to tell a kid not to have sex but that you believe you’re wasting your time teaching about birth control or protection. If that’s the case, that’s unfortunateIt seems like you are stating that it’s important to tell a kid not to have sex but that you believe you’re wasting your time teaching about birth control or protection. If that’s the case, that’s unfortunate

It's unfortunate that you swat at flies and not killing elephants.

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, YJacket said:

It's unfortunate that you swat at flies and not killing elephants.

What are you referring to regarding me? 
 

Actually, never mind.  This is not a conversation I’m interested in. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by MustardSeed

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

  If he is dumb enough to have pre-marital sex, then he can take the consequences of it.

You are what’s wrong with religion. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

 

If my son wanted to do shoot up heroine? "No . . .but if you do just make sure you use clean needles!"  That doesn't seem like a very wise council. 

 

That actually is very very wise council. That you care so little for the life and health of your offspring (and their potential children) is <nevermind>. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

If my son wanted to do shoot up heroine? "No . . .but if you do just make sure you use clean needles!"  That doesn't seem like a very wise council.  The problem is shooting up . . .not using clean needles.  Telling him to use clean needles is swatting at a fly when the elephant is charging at you.

And if the consequence from him not using safe sex practices or clean needles is a disease that kills him, not the heroine doing the killing and not having a kid, not the elephant smashing him, but the contaminated fly landing unnoticed on his soon to be eaten hamburger, are you going to be okay with not trying to warn him yourself (given you can never tell what kids may actually listen to, sometimes the small stuff gets through when the big hits the wall)?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

already are not obeying x, so why would they possibly obey y.

Because disobedience is often illogical.

God doesn’t stop giving out any commandments just because we disobey one or even a ton of them, even if the commandment is the greatest one of all. Often we move from rebelliousness to obedience one small commandment at a time. 
 

Same with parenthood. Maybe my kid won’t clean his room, but if I can get him to empty the garbage it is a beginning place. If he realizes the benefits of obeying the small stuff, maybe he will recognize the benefit of obeying the large stuff. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

I don't believe "it's worse" if it results in a child.  I think it might actually be better.

The more partners women have the less likely they are able to actually bond to their eventual spouse.  If sex out-of-wedlock produces a child and binds the mother father together, that might be a better solution than the woman have 4-5 different partners and never being able to bond to her husband.

Consequences of unprotected sex isn’t just having kids. If his girlfriend had a previous partner who has infected her, your boy gets infected and now may end up infecting any future partner and any child they have together.

Don't have an automatic problem with you expecting rent, etc if your child refuses to live by your rules, but a disease can be forever and even if they clean their act later, it may be a horrible burden to bear, even an excruciating death for not only your child, but their child or partner. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

Consequences of unprotected sex isn’t just having kids. If his girlfriend had a previous partner who has infected her, your boy gets infected and now may end up infecting any future partner and any child they have together.

Don't have an automatic problem with you expecting rent, etc if your child refuses to live by your rules, but a disease can be forever and even if they clean their act later, it may be a horrible burden to bear, even an excruciating death for not only your child, but their child or partner. 

Sometimes parents who over do it with expectations, cause children to rebel or just plain give up trying to live up to it. 

[maj]

20 hours ago, why me said:

I wouldn't take it all too seriously. I believe that many teenagers make such decisions of independence, especially when it comes to going to church. It happens in all faiths. I would just continue as things were between you both. And just respect the decision your teenager has made. Hopefully you both share your love for rugby and continue to go to rugby matches together. And celebrate together when Wales beats New Zealand and especially England. 🙂

Love this!

[maj]

20 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

My condolances for the struggle you are facing. I know that is is hard to see your children use thier agency in ways you fear might hurt them someday.

When my children stopped being active (they all are inactive to varying degrees), each case made me feel a little sad - and dissapointed in myself as a parent.

The following realizations helped me - don't know if they will be helpful for you, but here goes 🙂

- If our goal is to become like our Heavenly Father, and He is the perfect parent.  Then what should I do to be like him?  He gives us our agency, lets us fall, and then loves us unconditionally and promises to be there whenever we turn to him.  Period.  I try to do that too now.

- His children choosing poorly does not diminish the intergrity or goodness of God, so why should I feel diminished by the choices my children make after having done my best to impart wisdom to them in thier youth?

- The arc of eternity bends towards salvation for most, and I have come to trust that my children are really HIS children, and He will work his plan for them in His time.

Hope some of that can help.  Blessings to you and your family!

 

 

This is a wonderful way of looking at things, a real eternal perspective.

 

Thank you for sharing this, it's really made me think.

[Thinking]

Sometimes when a loved one discovers that they don't believe in the Church anymore and they communicate their unbelief, they are accused of leaving because they want to "sin." Please don't make that accusation.

[Meadowchik]

21 hours ago, YJacket said:

Why should I presuppose that it won't likely stop him?  If he is dumb enough to have pre-marital sex, then he can take the consequences of it.

I do not understand telling him "not in my house" . . ."but if you are going to do it . . .just use protection".  Why not just say "not in my house, but if you are dumb enough to do so . . .good luck! I'm not going to help you in your destruction".

Gross. 

[Meadowchik]

21 hours ago, Balaam said:

1) it is wrong to have sex before marriage

2) it is even worse if sex before marriage results in the birth of children

So, yes, please focus on trying to teach your child as well as you can about rule 1, but also say that if you choose to disregard rule 1 then please at least follow rule 2 so that your child will not make matters even worse for all 3 people involved.

And if all of that fails, you can still teach your child about how to fix things after making mistakes

It's worse to get married prematurely.  It's worse to have children before you're ready, even if you're married.

A child is better off with parents who want her, whether they're married or not...and by wanting I don't mean accepting childbearing out of obedience.

 

 

[Meadowchik]

21 hours ago, YJacket said:

Sure . . .but how many times has your kid wanted to do something you tell them no, they say why, and when you explain the reasons they say "well mom, dad now that you've put it that way, you are totally right!"

I agree that parents should expound . . .I just don't expect my kids to say "gee mom/dad, I totally understand now that you've told me why you said I can not do this dumb thing!"  Maybe days, weeks, months, or years later they might say that-but in the moment, never happened.

Of course it happens. It's probably more likely to happen though when empathy and love and listening are principles of the conversation.

[Chum]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Don't have an automatic problem with you expecting rent, etc if your child refuses to live by your rules, but a disease can be forever and even if they clean their act later, it may be a horrible burden to bear, even an excruciating death for not only your child, but their child or partner. 

My kids pay most of our housing costs because the US is cycling back to 1915.  I stay out of their sex lives.

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It's worse to get married prematurely.  It's worse to have children before you're ready, even if you're married.

What is the percentage of young adults who could support a family on their own? In a 4-income economy, it can't be very high.

[Tacenda]

I thought this would be helpful, hopefully you aren't offended I linked to exmo reddit. But it has a 15 year old who agreed to go to church with his parents if they would read the comments on his post on there. Here's the opening post:

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

Have you asked him why he doesn't want to go to church anymore?

If you haven't haven't had this conversation with him, I would have it right away, so you can get to the root of the issue. 

[mrmarklin]

Tough love. He can do what he wants when he’s 18, but during his minority, he follows my house rules. Which includes going to church. If he doesn’t like it he can go to a shelter run by child protective services. 
 

I have no tolerance with enabling bad behavior. I let my kids know this very early in their lives. No problems getting them to church. 

[mrmarklin]

On 1/6/2023 at 2:51 PM, YJacket said:

My 16 year old son wants to have sex in my house with his girlfriend.  What should I do?

See my above post. 
I’ll elaborate a bit. I taught my kids very early on that if they want to do adult activities, then I will treat them as adults. That includes being on their own as an adult. I believe I made that crystal clear. And they’re all smart kids. So no, I didn’t need to tell them about safe sex or safe drug use. If they wanted adulthood, they can figure it out for themselves. They got the mess@ge loud and clear. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by mrmarklin