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My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?


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14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sadly it wouldn't be eliminated at all, and that's what makes this kind of thing difficult.  

When you want to send a toddler or 9 year old to their room, that's where they go whether they want to or not.  If a teenager doesn't want to go to their room, then you won't be able to make them in most cases, and forcing it could damage the relationship irrevocably.  And there is no way to put a kid in therapy who refuses to go.  Even if you could physically force them into the room (something I can't imagine many therapists even allowing), you could do nothing to make them talk.  Likewise with grounding.  Short of locks and bars, a kid who wants to leave, will leave whether they are grounded or not (and in many cases the police will not help you get them back home again).

Though we don't like to admit it (or even think about it), once our kids get a certain age we only wield as much power over them as they allow.  Most kids will allow a fair amount because they are mentally healthy enough, and have a good enough relationship with their parents, that they see the love and recognize some of the wisdom behind the decisions whether they like them or not.  But there will always be some kids that are not mentally stable enough or who are rebellious enough or who have zero respect for their parents (or a combination of two or all) that will not comply no matter what.

Once we understand how truly limited our ability to successfully physically compel our kids is, we can better understand the dangers of attempting to spiritually compel them.

I disagree with pretty much all of this.

Normal children and teens who have had boundaries set by their parents would be responsive to the things I mentioned.

It's kind of hard for a kid to have sex or do drugs in your house if you don't let their significant other in, take away their phone, take the door off of their room, clear their room out and leave only a mattress, etc. 

I think what you are describing is a kid who is completely psycho. In which case, there's always reform school, juvenile detention, or a mental health facility if the other methods don't work. 

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1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It's kind of hard for a kid to have sex or do drugs in your house if you don't let their significant other in, take away their phone, take the door off of their room, clear their room out and leave only a mattress, etc. 

Who gives a s*** where they are doing it?  Why they are doing it seems to be the bigger issue at hand.   You may be able to have some limited control over the where (home).  But you have no control over the why, all you have is your influence.  Don't ruin that ability to influence with overly coercive/controlling behavior.  Kids don't typically act out to that extreme unless they are suffering and attempting to numb.  There are typically wounds.  Taking their door off a'int going to address and heal the root causes.   It is not going to help them self-regulate when they move out or to autonomously choose-the-right.     Sure, you can keep it out of the house, but coercive parenting will not keep it out of their lives, in fact, it can back-fire big-time.  You can't control your kids.  Your greatest power is your ability to influence through creating a safe, trusting, loving, open and non-shaming environment.  Some may just be experimenting, in which case you still have influence.  Don't blow it!

Even in the perfect home/parenting, kids can still act out due to influences/traumas outside of your control.  We can choose to foster healing and influence with our children through relationship development, or we can try to control them.  I think the research is pretty clear as to which works better. 

If your kids are beyond your ability to influence and have succumb to addiction, then they need professional intervention - which again, focuses on healing, influence, and relationship development. 

Edited by pogi
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31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be disagreeing from a place of ignorance and not from a place of actual knowledge or experience with these kinds of situations.  That might be something to consider when replying.

I do think your response is natural though because it's easier if we as parents believe that only a "completely pyscho" kid would act in such way.  It's terrifying to believe that our kid could do that--terrifying because we know that if they decided to do it, there wouldn't be anything we could really do about it.

But no, I'm not describing a kid that is "completely pyscho" (though I think often mental health issues do play a part).  And for anyone who has ever been in this scenario, the idea that reform school, juvenile detention, or a mental health facility is a simple or easy answer is completely ignorant of the realities of both our laws and our mental health care options (many of which are not covered by health insurance) in this country for teens.

 

Let's take things down a notch. 

While none of my children have insisted on doing drugs or having sex in my home, I do have experience with teens who sometimes make bad choices and need guidance and boundaries. The methods I mentioned work very well. 

And if I had a teen who were to insist on doing these things in my home against my wishes, after I have had a heart to heart discussion with them, taken away all of their privileges, and made it virtually impossible for them to do these things in my home, then I would consider taking more drastic measures like reform school, juvenile detention. Because at the point the kid would be completely psycho and a danger to the family. They would be in need of serious, serious help. 

It would be very irresponsible to not intervene. 

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17 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

Who gives a s*** where they are doing it?  Why they are doing it seems to be the bigger issue at hand.   You may be able to have some limited control over the where (home).  But you have no control over the why, all you have is your influence.  Don't ruin that ability to influence with overly coercive/controlling behavior.  Kids don't typically act out to that extreme unless they are suffering and attempting to numb.  There are typically wounds.  Taking their door off a'int going to address and heal the root causes.   It is not going to help them self-regulate when they move out or to autonomously choose-the-right.     Sure, you can keep it out of the house, but coercive parenting will not keep it out of their lives, in fact, it can back-fire big-time.  You can't control your kids.  Your greatest power is your ability to influence through creating a safe, trusting, loving, open and non-shaming environment.  Some may just be experimenting, in which case you still have influence.  Don't blow it!

Even in the perfect home/parenting, kids can still act out due to influences/traumas outside of your control.  We can choose to foster healing and influence with our children through relationship development, or we can try to control them.  I think the research is pretty clear as to which works better. 

If your kids are beyond your ability to influence and have succumb to addiction, then they need professional intervention - which again, focuses on healing, influence, and relationship development. 

Keeping sex and drugs out of the home is very important, especially if there are younger children in the home. They need to be protected from this. This is what I was talking about. Obviously we can't stop it from happening outside of the home if the rebellious teen insists, but we can and should do all we can. 

I agree that if a kid is beyond our ability to influence and has succumb to addiction, then they need professional intervention. The last thing they need is to be enabled. 

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On 1/6/2023 at 9:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

First, you need to realize you're a member of a high demand religion and have been taught if one of your children leaves the religion you raised them in, it was because of the influence of Satan and his angels. Because of this teaching, there's a really good chance your relationship with your son will deteriorate if you're unable to stop thinking about your son being influenced by Satan. If he feels like you're disappointed in him because he left the church, he'll automatically think you're disappointed in him because you feel like he's now going to HELL! Can't speak for the females in the church, but when a male decides to tell his parents he's leaving the church, he's extremely nervous because he knows the first thing his parents are thinking is, OHH NOOO, my son has been recruited over to the dark side! 

 If you want to have a normal relationship with your son, its not about not treating him any different, most parents can handle that. It's about not looking at him with pity and regret. It's about not FEELING he's given up his priesthood. It's about not FEELING like he won't be in the Celestial Kingdom with you and the rest of the family. Trust me, if you feel that way in your heart, your son will feel your disappoint and will eventually put and end to your relationship. 

 

 

  

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9 hours ago, Calm said:

If I judged the world of teens by my two, I would have a very limited understanding of their reactions.

I'm not judging the world of teens exclusively by my two.

I have a lot of experience working with teens. Kids need clear boundaries and guidance. And when necessary tough love. The kids who don't respond to any of the methods I mentioned are the exception, not the rule. 

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13 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Keeping sex and drugs out of the home is very important, especially if there are younger children in the home. They need to be protected from this. This is what I was talking about. Obviously we can't stop it from happening outside of the home if the rebellious teen insists, but we can and should do all we can. 

I agree that if a kid is beyond our ability to influence and has succumb to addiction, then they need professional intervention. The last thing they need is to be enabled. 

I agree with this, but there is a HUGE difference between enabling/being permissive and not being authoritarian.  These are the two extremes.  I am guessing both of our parenting styles are more in the center, with yours being a little more behavior control oriented, and mine is more oriented towards autonomy supportive parenting.  I think there is room for authoritative parenting (which is very different from authoritarian), but I lean more towards authoritative parenting that emphasizes autonomy support through relationship development/building, and addressing any needs that are not being met that might be contributing to the behavior.  I have learned helpful principles through addiction recovery which teach that outward acting-out behaviors (not just addictive type behaviors) are often symptoms of inward unmet needs or wounds.  There can be other causes too which are much easier to address.  It is more effective when we address the root causes rather than trying to force or control external behaviors which are only symptomatic of the disease/problem and not the disease/problem itself.   

 

Edited by pogi
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13 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Let's take things down a notch. 

While none of my children have insisted on doing drugs or having sex in my home, I do have experience with teens who sometimes make bad choices and need guidance and boundaries. The methods I mentioned work very well. 

And if I had a teen who were to insist on doing these things in my home against my wishes, after I have had a heart to heart discussion with them, taken away all of their privileges, and made it virtually impossible for them to do these things in my home, then I would consider taking more drastic measures like reform school, juvenile detention. Because at the point the kid would be completely psycho and a danger to the family. They would be in need of serious, serious help. 

It would be very irresponsible to not intervene. 

I don't know what you mean by "taking things down a notch".  

I agree that as parents we have a duty to intervene when our children are making bad choices.  And I agree that most are basically obedient to their parents, especially where there is love and respect on both sides.  But my point is that, as parents, we can sometimes forget the limits that God (and the fallen world) has given us.

We can start to believe that if our children do X, Y, or Z then all we have to do is respond with A, B, or C to handle the problem.  Sometimes (hopefully often) that is true, but even when it is, it is only true because our children allow it to be true.  And there are times when it won't be true at all.  Their agency trumps us every time, and always will. 

Working with that agency is our only legitimate option, and is as much a duty or responsibility of a good parent as any other.

Our conversation started when you expressed the opinion that it is possible to "exercise control or dominion or compulsion" on our children in righteousness.  I agree that there are likely times as a parent when it is righteous to force our children to do things, to control them, and to dominate them, but I would suggest that those times are the exception rather than the rule, and that our ability to actually force, dominate, and control older children without their compliance is practically (though not completely) nonexistent.  In my opinion, that reality is a warning. 

That's God saying "Be careful.  Agency is difficult to remove for a reason."

 

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21 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I would have a serious conversation with them and ground them and take away their privileges, not let their significant other into the house, take the door off of their room, have them meet with the bishop, put them into counseling or therapy, etc.

Someone once told me that when you pick up a stick, you also pick up the other end.  I have thought about this a lot, especially when raising my children.  May I suggest a different approach for you to consider?  Rather than lectures and chastisements, punishment and restrictions, consider talking to the child.  Remind them that we only have one life here on earth.  And what we do with that life is all their choice, not yours, not the bishops, not anyone else but them.  So just what stick are they picking up when they want to do drugs.  Where does that stick lead to?  Do they want a life of addiction and dependency and loneliness?  Ask them where a life of drug dependency will lead them and ask them if that is the life they want for themselves. Or do they want a life of freedom, love and happiness, nurturing relationships and family.  Every one of those kids that started using heavy drugs never thought they would be addicts either.  But that is where life lead them when they picked up that stick.  

I also think you have to be completely honest with them.  There are drugs, and then there are drugs.  All drugs don't lead to the same path.  Some like marijuana are not physically addicting.  Some like meth can get you totally hooked with just one or two times.  

The choice is really theirs and the life they want to lead.  When they realize that it is their choice rather than you just telling them not to do drugs or you will kick them out and they are on their own, I have found that they make the choice for the right reason.

This concept, of course, is true with all of these issues.  Where will sex lead to.  What life options could possibly be cut off forever?  I think you get the idea.  

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14 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Let's take things down a notch. 

While none of my children have insisted on doing drugs or having sex in my home, I do have experience with teens who sometimes make bad choices and need guidance and boundaries. The methods I mentioned work very well. 

And if I had a teen who were to insist on doing these things in my home against my wishes, after I have had a heart to heart discussion with them, taken away all of their privileges, and made it virtually impossible for them to do these things in my home, then I would consider taking more drastic measures like reform school, juvenile detention. Because at the point the kid would be completely psycho and a danger to the family. They would be in need of serious, serious help. 

It would be very irresponsible to not intervene. 

Taking things down a notch means sending your kid to reform school or juvenile detention???  You are basically saying that you are relinquishing the ability to influence your child and turning that over to kids that are in reform school?  I can't see this turning out with a positive result.

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree with this, but there is a HUGE difference between enabling/being permissive and not being authoritarian.  These are the two extremes.  I am guessing both of our parenting styles are more in the center, with yours being a little more behavior control oriented, and mine is more oriented towards autonomy supportive parenting.  I think there is room for authoritative parenting (which is very different from authoritarian), but I lean more towards authoritative parenting that emphasizes autonomy support through relationship development/building, and addressing any needs that are not being met that might be contributing to the behavior.  I have learned helpful principles through addiction recovery which teach that outward acting-out behaviors (not just addictive type behaviors) are often symptoms of inward unmet needs or wounds.  There can be other causes too which are much easier to address.  It is more effective when we address the root causes rather than trying to force or control external behaviors which are only symptomatic of the disease/problem and not the disease/problem itself.   

 

I'm actually very laid back in my parenting approach and give my kids a ton of autonomy. 

I'm not talking about standard parenting technique. What I'm talking about is what to do in the extreme case of a teenager insisting on doing drugs or having sex in my home, after I have had a serious talk with them and taken measures to keep them from doing that. 

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You explain that nature causes chemicals in a teen's brain to realize there are flaws in their parents, they are not the strong know-it-alls they were when they were 12. They disrespect their elders and put more trust in themselves and chosen peers. This a process designed to drive them to leave your household.  Only life will cause them to realize the wisdom of their parents. Sometimes reaching rock bottom is the path, you just need to equip him enough to know how to recover. The prodigal son is the journey for many of us.

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58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know what you mean by "taking things down a notch".  

I agree that as parents we have a duty to intervene when our children are making bad choices.  And I agree that most are basically obedient to their parents, especially where there is love and respect on both sides.  But my point is that, as parents, we can sometimes forget the limits that God (and the fallen world) has given us.

We can start to believe that if our children do X, Y, or Z then all we have to do is respond with A, B, or C to handle the problem.  Sometimes (hopefully often) that is true, but even when it is, it is only true because our children allow it to be true.  And there are times when it won't be true at all.  Their agency trumps us every time, and always will. 

Working with that agency is our only legitimate option, and is as much a duty or responsibility of a good parent as any other.

Our conversation started when you expressed the opinion that it is possible to "exercise control or dominion or compulsion" on our children in righteousness.  I agree that there are likely times as a parent when it is righteous to force our children to do things, to control them, and to dominate them, but I would suggest that those times are the exception rather than the rule, and that our ability to actually force, dominate, and control older children without their compliance is practically (though not completely) nonexistent.  In my opinion, that reality is a warning. 

That's God saying "Be careful.  Agency is difficult to remove for a reason."

 

What I meant about taking things down a notch was your suggestion that my response was coming from a place of ignorance. There's no reason to make personal assumptions like that. 

I have a lot of experience working with teens, including rebellious ones, so I know from first hand experience that having a heart to heart conversation with them and taking away their privileges is very effective at changing their behavior. 

Having rules and handing out appropriate consequences if those rules are broken is not taking away a child’s agency. The child is free to make their choice, but they aren't free to avoid the consequences of that choice. 

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44 minutes ago, california boy said:

Someone once told me that when you pick up a stick, you also pick up the other end.  I have thought about this a lot, especially when raising my children.  May I suggest a different approach for you to consider?  Rather than lectures and chastisements, punishment and restrictions, consider talking to the child.  Remind them that we only have one life here on earth.  And what we do with that life is all their choice, not yours, not the bishops, not anyone else but them.  So just what stick are they picking up when they want to do drugs.  Where does that stick lead to?  Do they want a life of addiction and dependency and loneliness?  Ask them where a life of drug dependency will lead them and ask them if that is the life they want for themselves. Or do they want a life of freedom, love and happiness, nurturing relationships and family.  Every one of those kids that started using heavy drugs never thought they would be addicts either.  But that is where life lead them when they picked up that stick.  

I also think you have to be completely honest with them.  There are drugs, and then there are drugs.  All drugs don't lead to the same path.  Some like marijuana are not physically addicting.  Some like meth can get you totally hooked with just one or two times.  

The choice is really theirs and the life they want to lead.  When they realize that it is their choice rather than you just telling them not to do drugs or you will kick them out and they are on their own, I have found that they make the choice for the right reason.

This concept, of course, is true with all of these issues.  Where will sex lead to.  What life options could possibly be cut off forever?  I think you get the idea.  

I completely agree that having an honest heart to heart conversation with a teen making bad choices is the first step. And depending on how that conversation goes and how the child responds to any appropriate consequences, will determine what additional steps need to be taken. 

Often times a heart to heart talk is enough. 

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40 minutes ago, california boy said:

Taking things down a notch means sending your kid to reform school or juvenile detention???  You are basically saying that you are relinquishing the ability to influence your child and turning that over to kids that are in reform school?  I can't see this turning out with a positive result.

No, that's not what I'm referring to by "taking things down a notch." I'm referring to not making assumptions/accusations of ignorance about people we are having a civil discussion with. 

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13 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I completely agree that having an honest heart to heart conversation with a teen making bad choices is the first step. And depending on how that conversation goes and how the child responds to any appropriate consequences, will determine what additional steps need to be taken. 

Often times a heart to heart talk is enough. 

Communication is very valuable and elemental to it is the nonverbal communication of respecting our children, including how we value them. Here's a blog post that addresses some of this:

 

 

Protecting My Children by Honoring Their Privacy and Consent

TW: Mild themes of child sexual abuse and sexuality

 

MIRIAM: Just a few minutes after leaving the neighborhood pool, the summer sun had already dried my bare shoulders, but I still smelled the chlorine from the pool water on my skin and in my hair. I trailed home with other children ahead and behind me as we passed the local gas station. The moment that I neared the station’s payphone, it rang. At seven-years old, I loved to answer phones, so I hopped to it and answered the ring.

 

The caller on the line did not ask for someone else, he just started talking to me. He asked me to say something. The words he asked me to say were strange, but I said them. He asked me to say them again. I did. After a few times, I decided the man sounded unpleasant, and I hung up the phone.

 

Only later did I understand this: some person in the neighborhood, presumably in sight of the gas station’s pay phone, had seen children passing and decided to call. He asked me to say vulgar words to him, although at the time, I didn’t know they were vulgar.

 

I was a child and he used me.

 

About seven years later, I visited a vacation house with my best friend and her extended family. Her older cousin was among them and, without my consent, he groped me. Flustered, I was able to collect myself and get away from him.

 

I carried these memories around as a teen with mixed feelings of guilt and indignation. How dare they? And yet, how could I be surprised? The world is fallen after all, and it was my job to stay away from such experiences. I learned at baptism—and constantly as a youth—that I was charged with keeping myself spiritually clean. Fortunately, a very kind bishop’s counselor disabused me of the notion that I carried guilt in those experiences. There was nothing in them that required my repentance.

 

I am grateful for the comfort that counselor offered me, and yet I still recognize that the comfort came from his decision, and not my own ability to know my own worth.

 

Years later as a young mother, I insisted on my young children knowing about consent as early as possible. “No” means no, even no to a hug or a kiss from me or their father. As most young parents do, I was constantly amazed at their individual personalities and strong wills.

More years passed and more children became teens. The inevitable happened: dating. As a family, we did what came naturally. Their friends—including mutual crushes—became friends of the family.

Recently my teen daughter had her first appointment with our new dentist.  With rain softly pattering against the office windows, I filled out the typical medical history questionnaire.

I worked the pen down the list, checking boxes, adding details. Then I got to a question I couldn’t answer, to the patient: “Are you or could you be pregnant?” I left it blank and then I placed the questionnaire with my daughter to finish in private. I think the answer is no, but such answers are no longer my province. I won’t ask her and I don’t expect her to tell me.

When my adult and teen children come home from dates and time with their friends, the idea of inquiring about their chastity never feels like a correct question. So, I don’t ask. Aside from information they wish to talk about and volunteer themselves, their sexual lives (or lack thereof) is their business, not mine.

I know this might be considered a dangerous approach to child-rearing, but in my experience, this is as safe as I can make it for my children. Honoring their privacy and consent is among the best protections of their safety and feelings of worth that I can provide them.

I know what it is like to feel like human garbage. Still a teen myself, it was an afternoon in my BYU dorm, and my roommate was away. I had rested and, being alone, had finally allowed myself to think about my choices of the previous night. I had broken the law of chastity, and it felt like an envelope of darkness was closing around me. I’d failed myself and most importantly, I’d failed God. This time, there’d be no priesthood excusing the incident as no fault of my own. I’d never be able to go back to before.

Eventually, my mind turned to prayer. “Dear Heavenly Father…”

Light! Light shot to and through me. An overpowering feeling of warmth and love filled my insides. All this after only three words! I continued praying. I begged for forgiveness. I found the courage to see my bishop and begin the repentance process. When I married in the temple, I felt clean and worthy and new.

However, decades later, I think about this moment. The light and warmth didn’t come only after I was married in the temple. Nor did it delay until I spoke to my bishop. The love didn’t fill me up after I asked for forgiveness. All I did was open my mouth to God, and the light came.

I was always worthy.

~Miriam~

https://sistersquorum.com/2019/11/23/protecting-my-children-by-honouring-their-privacy-and-consent/#more-1311

Edited by Meadowchik
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49 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What I meant about taking things down a notch was your suggestion that my response was coming from a place of ignorance. There's no reason to make personal assumptions like that. 

I have a lot of experience working with teens, including rebellious ones, so I know from first hand experience that having a heart to heart conversation with them and taking away their privileges is very effective at changing their behavior. 

Having rules and handing out appropriate consequences if those rules are broken is not taking away a child’s agency. The child is free to make their choice, but they aren't free to avoid the consequences of that choice. 

I stated that solely because of your claim that any child like I described would be a “complete psycho”. That suggested to me that you didn’t actually know any kids like I described (as I know a small handful and I wouldn’t describe any of them as complete psychos).

And I agree with the third paragraph, but remember I’m specifically responding to your statement that sometimes it’s righteous for parents to compel, dominate, and control their kids. Those kinds of actions come very close to the line of removing agency.  Under most circumstances, with older kids, they would cross it.

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3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I’m specifically responding to your statement that sometimes it’s righteous for parents to compel, dominate, and control their kids. Those kinds of actions come very close to the line of removing agency.  Under most circumstances, with older kids, they would cross it.

I don't see how having rules and consequences for older kids takes away their agency. They are still free to do whatever they want to, and then they receive the appropriate consequences for their actions. Good choices receive positive consequences and bad choices receive negative ones. That's how agency works. 

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