My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

35 minutes ago, Balaam said:

It's the idea that a parent telling a child they can't do something means they can't do it.  But as we all know, they still can.  Any parent knows that telling a child not to do something won't guarantee they won't do it. 

Absolutely, this is why consequences and following through are so important. 

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don't see how having rules and consequences for older kids takes away their agency. They are still free to do whatever they want to, and then they receive the appropriate consequences for their actions. Good choices receive positive consequences and bad choices receive negative ones. That's how agency works. 

As I've said, I agree that having rules and consequences for older kids doesn't take away their agency. 

But exercising "control or dominion or compulsion" for older kids likely does in my opinion.  Control, dominion, and compulsion are not "rules and consequences".  They imply forcing someone to do something against their will.  Compulsion actually means "by force", for example.

Remember that our discussion centers on your statement where you said--"The Lord didn't say that exercising control, dominion, or compulsion is always bad. It's only bad when done in "any degree of unrighteousness."

What I've been saying (and maybe not saying it very well) is that your statement of "it's only bad when done in any degree of unrighteousness" represents an exception so rare that it barely exists (in my opinion).  It's pretty much always bad.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

As I've said, I agree that having rules and consequences for older kids doesn't take away their agency. 

But exercising "control or dominion or compulsion" for older kids likely does in my opinion.  Control, dominion, and compulsion are not "rules and consequences".  They imply forcing someone to do something against their will.  Compulsion actually means "by force", for example.

Remember that our discussion centers on your statement where you said--"The Lord didn't say that exercising control, dominion, or compulsion is always bad. It's only bad when done in "any degree of unrighteousness."

What I've been saying (and maybe not saying it very well) is that your statement of "it's only bad when done in any degree of unrighteousness" represents an exception so rare that it barely exists (in my opinion).  It's pretty much always bad.

It sounds like we may just have a different understanding of what "exercising control, dominion, or compulsion" means. 

In my opinion proper parenting includes an appropriate amount of "exercising control, dominion, or compulsion" righteously. To me that's establishing and enforcing appropriate rules and consequences. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

10 minutes ago, Balaam said:

Sometimes it's just better to let people do whatever they want to do, or not do something, without me saying anything to them. At that moment.  While still being there for them if they would like to talk with me. 

I agree that sometimes this is better, but this would clearly not be the right approach to one's teenager insisting on having sex and doing drugs in the home, which is the issue we've been discussing. 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I agree that sometimes this is better, but this would clearly not be the right approach to one's teenager insisting on having sex and doing drugs in the home, which is the issue we've been discussing. 

I wouldn't allow it. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Balaam said:

Yeah, just as war is bad, but still sometimes necessary.  Our Father kicked our brother Satan out of heaven. That was an act of control in his own dominion, and our Father was not unrighteous when he did that.

I agree.  I don't think it's bad to kick an adult out of our home either, except when it comes to minor children of course.

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Balaam said:

Ah!  I didn't know this was in this context.  So now I can hear you saying you won't allow it.  I can envision you literally kicking him out the door, or more politely leading him out by holding his arm until he is out.  That kind of thing?  I understand there are times when only saying No! and explaining your position might not be enough.  

If the child isn't 18, kicking them out isn't a legal option.

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It sounds like we may just have a different understanding of what "exercising control, dominion, or compulsion" means. 

In my opinion proper parenting includes an appropriate amount of "exercising control, dominion, or compulsion" righteously. To me that's establishing and enforcing appropriate rules and consequences. 

Yes, we do seem to disagree about that.  How would a parent unrighteously exercise control, dominion, or compulsion in your opinion?

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

Sister Gui and I have two sons who left the Church as teenagers, and 8 of my 9 nephews and nieces did the same. Unless one has personally experienced it, there is no way to express adequately the chaos it creates. For a number of years we had little or no contact. After 17 years of anguish, we are finally seeing hopeful and positive changes. 

While working as a service missionary in the LDS Addiction Recovery program (family and loved ones’ support), I compiled a booklet of several talks and quotes from past and present LDS leaders who have dealt with the issue. We and many of our friends have found it to be very helpful. Perhaps there is some way I can get it to you. 

One of the best is “Keeping the Door Open and the Stew Hot:
Loving and Helping a Wayward Child” by Marvin K. Gardner in the August 1982 Ensign. 
 

Best hopeful wishes, 

Bernard

Edited January 11, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Yes, we do seem to disagree about that.  How would a parent unrighteously exercise control, dominion, or compulsion in your opinion?

By setting rules and boundaries he/she could not enforce. 

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

One of the best is “Keeping the Door Open and the Stew Hot:
Loving and Helping a Wayward Child” by Marvin K. Gardner in the August 1982 Ensign. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1982/08/keeping-the-door-open-and-the-stew-hot-loving-and-helping-a-wayward-child?lang=eng

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

How would a parent unrighteously exercise control, dominion, or compulsion in your opinion?

When they exercise unnecessary or excessive control, dominion, or compulsion in order to gratify their pride or vain ambition, instead of using an appropriate amount out of love and concern for their child's well-being or the well-being of others, such as younger siblings. 

[RAD DAD]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

Thought I would share an experience of one of my brothers relationships with my parents to help you understand how a child can FEEL your disappointment and that is what usually will end a healthy relationship. 

 My brother decided to leave the church at 20. My parents sat the rest us down and told us even though he decided to leave, we were not going to treat him any different. Now, that sounds good, but, even though we tried to treat him the same, he could tell my parents were disappointed in him. They couldn't control their feelings, everytime he came by the house you could SEE and FEEL a difference in how my parents acted around him. They tried and tried and tried to act normal, but they couldn't do it. Everytime they looked at my brother, all they could see was a child who was being influenced by Satan. All they could see is the child they would have to visit in a lower kingdom once everyone was dead, a child on the outside of the covenant we made with God. Yeapadt and my brother started to slowly pull away from the family. I was the only one willing to ask him why. He said coming around was becoming uncomfortable. That he could FEEL the tension everytime he walked into the door. 

  The relationship between my parents and my brother became so bad, my mom asked him if he would join her in going to family therapy. The very first session my Mom admitted that she couldn't stop FEELING sad and disappointed in my brother because in her mind, she knew for a fact that my brother wouldn't be in heaven with the rest of the family. That she has tried and tried her best to shake that feeling, but  she can't. She also admitted she was disappointed in my brother because he gave up his priesthood and was honoring the covenant he made with God. Well, that was the end of my mother's relationship with my brother. He hasn't been around for years. My children have never met his children. The relationship has become so bed now, he FEELS like he needs to protect his children from the rest of the family. All this because my mom FELT like she lost a child before he died and she couldn't hide how she actually FEELS! I my opinion,  this is the dilemma you find yourself in. Are you going to be able to not show how disappointed you are in your son? Do you feel like you have helped him by guiding him to the path that brings eternal life after death, and now he's screwing that up by leaving the church? Because if you do, there's a really good chance he's going to FEEL that disappointment and eventually distance himself from you because of the pain he feels everytime he's around you. 

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Thought I would share an experience of one of my brothers relationships with my parents to help you understand how a child can FEEL your disappointment and that is what usually will end a healthy relationship. 

 My brother decided to leave the church at 20. My parents sat the rest us down and told us even though he decided to leave, we were not going to treat him any different. Now, that sounds good, but, even though we tried to treat him the same, he could tell my parents were disappointed in him. They couldn't control their feelings, everytime he came by the house you could SEE and FEEL a difference in how my parents acted around him. They tried and tried and tried to act normal, but they couldn't do it. Everytime they looked at my brother, all they could see was a child who was being influenced by Satan. All they could see is the child they would have to visit in a lower kingdom once everyone was dead, a child on the outside of the covenant we made with God. Yeapadt and my brother started to slowly pull away from the family. I was the only one willing to ask him why. He said coming around was becoming uncomfortable. That he could FEEL the tension everytime he walked into the door. 

  The relationship between my parents and my brother became so bad, my mom asked him if he would join her in going to family therapy. The very first session my Mom admitted that she couldn't stop FEELING sad and disappointed in my brother because in her mind, she knew for a fact that my brother wouldn't be in heaven with the rest of the family. That she has tried and tried her best to shake that feeling, but  she can't. She also admitted she was disappointed in my brother because he gave up his priesthood and was honoring the covenant he made with God. Well, that was the end of my mother's relationship with my brother. He hasn't been around for years. My children have never met his children. The relationship has become so bed now, he FEELS like he needs to protect his children from the rest of the family. All this because my mom FELT like she lost a child before he died and she couldn't hide how she actually FEELS! I my opinion,  this is the dilemma you find yourself in. Are you going to be able to not show how disappointed you are in your son? Do you feel like you have helped him by guiding him to the path that brings eternal life after death, and now he's screwing that up by leaving the church? Because if you do, there's a really good chance he's going to FEEL that disappointment and eventually distance himself from you because of the pain he feels everytime he's around you. 

Before we ourselves left the church, one of my children had plans to leave home and never look back because of the church's position on homosexuality, even though we were already vocally supportive of LGBTQ persons. I think that at the core of these issues, healthy people want to have a home where they feel loved and respected. Being tolerated isn't enough.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Meadowchik

[CV75]

On 1/10/2023 at 12:32 AM, Duncan said:

My son was bullied out of the church by his YM leaders, one of whom is now in the Stake Pres. of the other stake so he sees that as a promotion and validation for what he and others told him. Anyways, I prayed about what to do and the answer was clear, don't bother with the church in this life, he can get it in the next life just keep the communication open. So, what I do is say positive things about the church so hopefully he'll be interested at some point.

Just a thought -- perhaps contacting this former YM leader and letting him know of the effect he has had on your son might prompt him to apologize to your son, repent, etc. once he realizes the family has conclude that their best hope is in the next life and not this one.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Just a thought -- perhaps contacting this former YM leader and letting him know of the effect he has had on your son might prompt him to apologize to your son, repent, etc. once he realizes the family has conclude that their best hope is in the next life and not this one.

oh I have! One, abruptly stopped coming and they later moved away somewhere, not sure where or what and the other one I can't recall what he said exactly-although last year I saw him at a move for someone and I think he felt guilty and was avoiding me and stuff-so I dunno.

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

By setting rules and boundaries he/she could not enforce. 

So as long as you can enforce it it’s righteous to do?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

my Mom admitted that she couldn't stop FEELING sad and disappointed in my brother because in her mind, she knew for a fact that my brother wouldn't be in heaven with the rest of the family. That she has tried and tried her best to shake that feeling, but  she can't.

I have seen this too. Honestly the idea of idea of eternal families often feels like a threat and a cudgel as likely to divide as unite. 

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

When they exercise unnecessary or excessive control, dominion, or compulsion in order to gratify their pride or vain ambition, instead of using an appropriate amount out of love and concern for their child's well-being or the well-being of others, such as younger siblings. 

So as long as their intentions are good it’s impossible to exercise compulsion or control on a child unrighteously?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So as long as their intentions are good it’s impossible to exercise compulsion or control on a child unrighteously?

No, it's not black and white like that. People (parents included) are complex individuals. You can have good intentions while also being on a power trip and using unnecessary or excessive control, dominion, or compulsion in order to exert your authority. 

But establishing rules and enforcing them with consequences is having dominion, control, and sometimes compulsion over your child. This is critical to being a good parent. They key is to do this at the appropriate level and for the right reasons. 

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

oh I have! One, abruptly stopped coming and they later moved away somewhere, not sure where or what and the other one I can't recall what he said exactly-although last year I saw him at a move for someone and I think he felt guilty and was avoiding me and stuff-so I dunno.

What about the guy who is now in the stake presidency?

Personally, I like to approach people who avoid me, sounds like he might be open to repentance and apologizing to your son.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

like to approach people who avoid me,

That can become its own form of bullying pretty easily. 

[Rain]

4 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Thought I would share an experience of one of my brothers relationships with my parents to help you understand how a child can FEEL your disappointment and that is what usually will end a healthy relationship. 

 My brother decided to leave the church at 20. My parents sat the rest us down and told us even though he decided to leave, we were not going to treat him any different. Now, that sounds good, but, even though we tried to treat him the same, he could tell my parents were disappointed in him. They couldn't control their feelings, everytime he came by the house you could SEE and FEEL a difference in how my parents acted around him. They tried and tried and tried to act normal, but they couldn't do it. Everytime they looked at my brother, all they could see was a child who was being influenced by Satan. All they could see is the child they would have to visit in a lower kingdom once everyone was dead, a child on the outside of the covenant we made with God. Yeapadt and my brother started to slowly pull away from the family. I was the only one willing to ask him why. He said coming around was becoming uncomfortable. That he could FEEL the tension everytime he walked into the door. 

  The relationship between my parents and my brother became so bad, my mom asked him if he would join her in going to family therapy. The very first session my Mom admitted that she couldn't stop FEELING sad and disappointed in my brother because in her mind, she knew for a fact that my brother wouldn't be in heaven with the rest of the family. That she has tried and tried her best to shake that feeling, but  she can't. She also admitted she was disappointed in my brother because he gave up his priesthood and was honoring the covenant he made with God. Well, that was the end of my mother's relationship with my brother. He hasn't been around for years. My children have never met his children. The relationship has become so bed now, he FEELS like he needs to protect his children from the rest of the family. All this because my mom FELT like she lost a child before he died and she couldn't hide how she actually FEELS! I my opinion,  this is the dilemma you find yourself in. Are you going to be able to not show how disappointed you are in your son? Do you feel like you have helped him by guiding him to the path that brings eternal life after death, and now he's screwing that up by leaving the church? Because if you do, there's a really good chance he's going to FEEL that disappointment and eventually distance himself from you because of the pain he feels everytime he's around you. 

While not quite the same because what I was feeling was that I was the one who failed, I found I had to be ok with just giving all that to God.  Give up my failings to him and change (repent) and let Heavenly Father who was my child's first and perfect parent, parent him now. I went through a lot of pain in getting there, but so worth it because I don't have to wear it while dealing with my child now. I can just focus on loving them.

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, that's not what I'm referring to by "taking things down a notch." I'm referring to not making assumptions/accusations of ignorance about people we are having a civil discussion with. 

I’m curious about this idea that you can’t infer that someone likely doesn’t have first hand knowledge of something in a civil discussion.  Or that doing so is an “accusation”.

Can you explain the thought process behind that reaction?  I try hard to always be respectful in my communications and your reaction was a surprise to me.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, it's not black and white like that. People (parents included) are complex individuals. You can have good intentions while also being on a power trip and using unnecessary or excessive control, dominion, or compulsion in order to exert your authority. 

But establishing rules and enforcing them with consequences is having dominion, control, and sometimes compulsion over your child. This is critical to being a good parent. They key is to do this at the appropriate level and for the right reasons. 

Thanks for the explanation. I think you are right in that you define those words in ways that I don’t think make much sense, and that is where our main disagreement lies.