My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[John L]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

You don’t have to go to loss of faith to find someone untrustworthy if you believe they have been lying

What did he lie about?

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, John L said:

Do you realize how many men and women are sitting in church that don't have a testimony anymore? 

Yes, I do. 

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, John L said:

What did he lie about?

9 hours ago, John L said:

One of my mothers siblings is a famous Dr. In our area and my mom was very proud of him. When he retired, probably around 70, he also decided to leave the church. I'm assuming he waited to leave because a large percentage of his clients were LDS.

If the reason for him waiting to leave the church until retirement was, in fact, due to fear of losing his LDS client base should they discover his true beliefs then he was effectively lying for financial gain.

And I can see how somebody who does such a thing may (justifiably) take a hit to his trustworthiness.

 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, John L said:

She loss of trust in her brother comes from him not being guided by the priesthood anymore. That's why she would run to her 30 some year old bishop for advice. 

Do you realize how many men and women are sitting in church that don't have a testimony anymore? 

I think it's epidemic at the moment, not just the LDS church. 

[MustardSeed]

39 minutes ago, Amulek said:

If the reason for him waiting to leave the church until retirement was, in fact, due to fear of losing his LDS client base should they discover his true beliefs then he was effectively lying for financial gain.

And I can see how somebody who does such a thing may (justifiably) take a hit to his trustworthiness.

 

We cannot know the motivation. 
Concern for the impact on others is I think a significant motivation to remain in a religion.  Or a marriage.  Or to maintain sobriety.  Or a sexual orientation. 

[Tacenda]

I thought this would be a very helpful video for the OP and others to watch. Also, something to think about going forward, to those that shun those that lose their faith, is that the person could very well come back to the church and how awful if you were one of the people that shunned them. 

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m curious why this is important to you? 
 

when I think “apostate” I think enemy to the church.  I don’t care what the church dictionary says, apostate has come to mean something very heavy in our culture.  I don’t think of anyone I know personally who has left the church as an enemy.  I can think of a few public influencers who likely fit the definition of church enemy.  But my circle? Naw. 

It's really not important to me at all. I just find John's insistence that the word "apostasy" be completely removed from the church's lexicon to be pretty silly. Words mean what they mean. And the church has even qualified the word "apostate" or "apostasy" in the handbook to be more narrowly defined than its standard definition.

If people want to take issue with how people judge the righteousness or trustworthiness of "former believers," I understand. But getting worked about the word apostate or apostasy being used (on a very limited basis nowadays) is just silly IMO.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It's really not important to me at all. I just find John's insistence that the word "apostasy" be completely removed from the church's lexicon to be pretty silly. Words mean what they mean. And the church has even qualified the word "apostate" or "apostasy" in the handbook to be more narrowly defined than its standard definition.

If people want to take issue with how people judge the righteousness or trustworthiness of "former believers," I understand. But getting worked about the word apostate or apostasy being used (on a very limited basis nowadays) is just silly IMO.

Well, what would Jesus do? And spirit of the law and so on. Words carry a lot of weight brother. I don't know if I'd handle it well if someone called me an apostate. And if a rumor went around about me and someone put apostate in. I just posted a video that you need to watch. Maybe...just maybe you need a faith crisis, it might straighten you up. In case you missed seeing my post....

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Tacenda

[Grug the Neanderthal]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t think they should eliminate the term apostate as it works just fine for the type of former believer who becomes an anti-Mormon or preaches against the Church.

The Handbook definitions cover apostasy rather than loss of belief quite well, imo.  

I think the church's qualified definition of apostasy in the handbook is fine, even though it isn't the correct definition. And the church's qualified definition of apostasy in the handbook applies to a wider group of former believers than anti-Mormons who preach against the church. 

[John L]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

If the reason for him waiting to leave the church until retirement was, in fact, due to fear of losing his LDS client base should they discover his true beliefs then he was effectively lying for financial gain.

Not at all. It's not his fault members of our faith lose trust in a person just because someone decides to leave the faith. I go back again to what I said before about churches like ours, the JWs and the SDAs that came out of the 1800s, they all teach members that someone who leaves the faith, probably did so because Satan influenced them to leave. 

What does it say about our church if someone wants to pursue life outside of it, but they're scared to tell loved ones, clients or friends because they're scared people will reject them? In my opinion, you're blaming the victim. 

Talking about the opening post. Does anyone realize how much courage it takes for a 16 year old boy to tell his parents he's not interested in going to church anymore? 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

And because in his experience apostates were among those who betrayed, prosecuted, persecuted, drove, and murdered their former brothe

Very true. And there's no doubt "apostates" today who would do the same if given the chance, but these would be in the minority. Most apostates (former believers) are more or less content to leave the church and its members alone, though there are definitely a good amount who fit the "you can leave the church, but can't leave it alone" bill. But that's not the same as what Brigham Young experienced. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, what would Jesus do?

Good question. What did he say and do in the scriptures? What did he say about those who left the straight and narrow path and followed their own way?

[John L]

10 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It's really not important to me at all. I just find John's insistence that the word "apostasy" be completely removed from the church's lexicon to be pretty silly

Mormon means Mormon and it has always meant Mormon and it will always mean Mormon even though we're not suppose to use the word Mormon anymore. See how silly that is?

To me, Mormon isn't a "bad" word, President Gordon B Hinckley taught me that! But for some reason it is now. Do you find it silly the word Mormon is being removed?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

Just now, John L said:

Do you find it silly the word Mormon is being removed?

Yes

[John L]

Just now, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes

We agree!!!   Heehaw!!!

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Good question. What did he say and do in the scriptures? What did he say about those who left the straight and narrow path and followed their own way?

Do you mind listening to the video I shared starting at 4:59 in? He talks about how to define a faith crisis and he starts off with Paul's experience on the road to Damaskas being a faith crisis and then Martin Luther's experience reading the book of Romans was a faith crisis, then Joseph Smith's Sacred Grove experience was a faith crisis. Then he mentions the years 1820, 1890 and 1978 was a faith crisis, along with how you read John and Matthew could be a faith crisis.  Jesus in Gethsamane and Jesus on Calvary to name a few, is a faith crisis. And how a faith crisis can lead you to become closer to God. I'm just barely listening and typing out what Jared Halverson says. Maybe it could open your mind up a little? If it's closed concerning those that quit belief? Or if you are unaware of some experiences people have? 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Do you mind listening to the video I shared starting at 4:59 in? He talks about how to define a faith crisis and he starts off with Paul's experience on the road to Damaskas being a faith crisis and then Martin Luther's experience reading the book of Romans was a faith crisis, then Joseph Smith's Sacred Grove experience was a faith crisis. Then he mentions the years 1820, 1890 and 1978 was a faith crisis, along with how you read John and Matthew could be a faith crisis.  Jesus in Gethsamane and Jesus on Calvary to name a few, is a faith crisis. And how a faith crisis can lead you to become closer to God. I'm just barely listening and typing out what Jared Halverson says. Maybe it could open your mind up a little? If it's closed concerning those that quit belief? Or if you are unaware of some experiences people have? 

I watched a couple of minutes, but I'm really not interested on watch a 50+ video. Especially when I can already tell that I disagree with the premise of it. 

I'm well aware that people go through faith crises for a variety of reasons. I went through one myself a number of years ago, but stayed active at church as I worked through it. 

As far as people's experiences go, "revelation, "visions," "impressions," etc. can come from sources other than God, and often do. 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I watched a couple of minutes, but I'm really not interested on watch a 50+ video. Especially when I can already tell that I disagree with the premise of it. 

I'm well aware that people go through faith crises for a variety of reasons. I went through one myself a number of years ago, but stayed active at church as I worked through it. 

As far as people's experiences go, "revelation, "visions," "impressions," etc. can come from sources other than God, and often do. 

Jesus and Joseph Smith too? (to the bold)

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Jesus and Joseph Smith too? (to the bold)

Jesus no, Joseph Smith, yes. 

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Jesus no, Joseph Smith, yes. 

I'm just mimicking Bro. Halverson. Maybe he mentioned Jesus because he didn't want to take the bitter cup? I'd have to read more on it. ETA: I did find this:

Edited January 19, 2023 by Tacenda

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/18/2023 at 1:16 PM, manol said:

Here is a link to the talk by Elder Scott: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/i-have-given-you-an-example?lang=eng

Here are the tenth and eleventh paragraphs, which are imo relevant to the topic of this thread, emphasis mine: 

"How can each of us become such a significant influence? We must be sure to sincerely love those we want to help in righteousness so they can begin to develop confidence in God’s love. For so many in the world, the first challenge in accepting the gospel is to develop faith in a Father in Heaven, who loves them perfectly. It is easier to develop that faith when they have friends or family members who love them in a similar way.

"Giving them confidence in your love can help them develop faith in God’s love. Then through your loving, thoughtful communication, their lives will be blessed by your sharing lessons you have learned, experiences you have had, and principles you have followed to find solutions to your own struggles. [First] Show your sincere interest in their well-being; then share your testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ."

It sounds to me like foundational the role we can play is to model and be a conduit for God's love so people have a safe space and can then extend that feeling of being in a safe space to how they feel about God.

And here are the sixteenth and seventeenth paragraphs, which I previously pulled quotes from, emphasis mine:

"Remember, loving them is the powerful foundation for influencing those you want to help. The influence of my Grandmother Whittle and my wife, Jeanene, would have been negligible had I not first known that they loved me and wanted me to have the best in life.

"As a companion to that love, trust them. In some cases it may seem difficult to trust, but find some way to trust them. The children of Father in Heaven can do amazing things when they feel trusted. Every child of God in mortality chose the Savior’s plan. Trust that given the opportunity, they will do so again."

We are talking past each other.

I’ve read the talk several times. In context he is not talking about abusive, harmful, dangerous, or dysfunctional relationships. In most cases, those who have been estranged or have distanced themselves from their families do not want to be reminded of the gospel. Just casually bringing up the subject can cause continued dissension and mistrust. In fact, this is the very point that many posters here, especially the disaffected members, have been trying to make. “Leave us (them) alone!”
 
Elder Scott gave examples of relationships such as his parents, grandmother, and wife who helped him become a better person. When relationships are still positive like this, trust can be maintained, teaching can occur, and testimonies can be borne. But with dysfunctional relationships the situation is very different. His love ones did not lock their bedroom doors at night fearing what he or the pushers to whom he owed money might do, that he might be committing crimes, or that what he was doing could result in death. Such things create profound levels of mistrust that may take years to remedy, if it ever is in this life. 

Elder Scott said,

“Grandmother used just the right amount of courage and respect to help our father recognize the importance of his driving us to the church for our meetings. In every appropriate way, she helped us to feel a need for the gospel in our lives.”

“She said, ‘When I marry, it will be to a faithful returned missionary in the temple.’
I hadn’t thought much about a mission before then. That night my motivation to consider missionary service changed dramatically. I went home, and I could think of nothing else. I was awake all night long. I was completely distracted from my studies the next day. After many prayers I made the decision to meet with my bishop and begin my missionary application.”

“Both Grandmother Whittle and Jeanene loved me enough to share their conviction that the ordinances of the gospel and serving Father in Heaven would bless my life. Neither of them coerced me or made me feel bad about the person I was. They simply loved me and loved Father in Heaven. Both knew He could do more with my life than I could on my own. Each courageously helped me in loving ways to find the path of greatest happiness.”

”Teach with a vision of the importance of families being sealed in the temple. With some families it may take years. This was the case with my parents. Many years after I was baptized, my father was baptized, and later my family was sealed in the temple. My father served as a sealer in the temple, and my mother served there with him.”

These are a very different kind of relationship. Continuing to pester disaffected family members about eternal families is, according to posters here, offensive and harmful to their relationships. I have friends who left a birthday cake on the porch of an estranged child only to receive a very hateful email telling them that their act of kindness was extremely offensive and to leave him alone, but not in as such “kind” words. 

In many cases, private parental efforts such as prayer, placing names on temple rolls, and trying to keep communication lines open are all we can do. As one parent in such circumstance said to us, “My sons have a Savior, and I am not He.”  That comment was a turning point in our quest for peace. Both of her sons eventually died from drug overdoses-one in her home-despite all she tried to do. When she pleadingly asked God why he sent them to her, the answer was, “Because I knew you would love them.” Sometimes that’s all there is left.

Children, young and old, have their agency which we must appropriately respect. Sometimes that has catastrophic results. The only thing left is to turn it over to the Lord and let Him do the miracle. In our case, the only thing we could do was pray that someone would come into their lives that would influence them for good. After 17 years of chaos and fear as we speak, those prayers are being answered, at least for now, but in ways we never expected. Trust is slow to return, though.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, John L said:

Do you realize how many men and women are sitting in church that don't have a testimony anymore?

Sitting in church might be the best place for them to be. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it's epidemic at the moment, not just the LDS church. 

That’s ok. We’re told we should be more like Europe. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe...just maybe you need a faith crisis, it might straighten you up.

Hmmm.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, John L said:

Does anyone realize how much courage it takes for a 16 year old boy to tell his parents he's not interested in going to church anymore? 

Sometimes there are associated behaviors that propel such decisions.