My son has decided he does not want to attend Church anymore - how do I build our relationship without this?

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmm.

Well according to the video I'm still watching because I have had to take a break and then go back to it since dinner etc. came up. Also, I always wondered why in the church on Sundays or ? we were told to always work on our testimonies.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Tacenda

[manol]

58 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We are talking past each other.

Yes, it looks that way.  

What do you think about this:

I'll do my best to summarize what I think you're saying, and you can correct me.  And then you can summarize what you think I'm saying, and I can correct you.  And once we are each satisfied that the other understands what we are each saying, presumably we will have mutual understanding even if we do not agree.

Would that be okay with you?

Edited January 19, 2023 by manol

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, manol said:

Yes, it looks that way.  

What do you think about this:

I'll do my best to summarize what I think you're saying, and you can correct me.  And then you can summarize what you think I'm saying, and I can correct you.  And once we are each satisfied that the other understands what we are each saying, presumably we will have mutual understanding even if we do not agree.

Would that be okay with you?

 

Only in 100 words or less. 

[Bernard Gui]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well according to the video I'm still watching because I have had to take a break and then go back to it since dinner etc. came up. Also, I always wondered why in the church on Sundays or ? we were told to always work on our testimonies.

I’m trying to understand why someone would recommend a faith crisis that could straighten them out. Seems a tad condescending, imo. “What you need is a good disabling accident. That could straighten you out.” (Or mess you up real good).

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Very true. And there's no doubt "apostates" today who would do the same if given the chance, but these would be in the minority. Most apostates (former believers) are more or less content to leave the church and its members alone, though there are definitely a good amount who fit the "you can leave the church, but can't leave it alone" bill. But that's not the same as what Brigham Young experienced. 

That’s why I don’t get worked up much when he excoriates apostates. The did him dirty.

[manol]

47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Only in 100 words or less. 

The 100-word limit is BRILLIANT!

I think you have been talking about relationships between LDS parents and children wherein the children have left the church and the relationships are abusive, harmful, dangerous, and/or dysfunctional.

I think you oppose “pestering” family members who leave the Church, but are in favor of loving those family members and praying for them.

I think you favor respecting agency and turning it over to God, even if it takes many painful and fearful years, and things may not resolve during this earth life.

I think you would not risk trusting under some circumstances.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by manol

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m trying to understand why someone would recommend a faith crisis that could straighten them out. Seems a tad condescending, imo. “What you need is a good disabling accident. That could straighten you out.” (Or mess you up real good).

Well, seems no one cared to watch the video I shared. I just finished it and it was incredible! Faithful man of the church and God spoke about how a faith crises can lead to a stronger faith. His words if shared are going to do amazing things with people like myself and for the growth in the church one day. He mentions the huge amount of people that are leaving or have left but he's telling us that the people that come out of that will make the church so much better than it currently is. If you can allow 53 minutes of your time to listen, I'd love your thoughts. To a person like me that's felt like a terrible human for losing my testimony, this gives one an idea that one day I might just come around to understanding what I'm to do. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

a good disabling accident.

This I s a horrific perspective to have if you want to have a good relationship with a loved one who decided to leave the church. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This I s a horrific perspective to have if you want to have a good relationship with a loved one who decided to leave the church. 

Yes indeed it would be if one had ever contemplated it; however, mine was a riff off of one poster who suggest that a nice faith crisis might straighten out another’s attitude. On a side note, a number of my loved ones have left the Church. I have never had even the slightest ill will toward any of them. I have observed that some have had horrific experiences as a result, and I deeply sorrow for them.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, seems no one cared to watch the video I shared. I just finished it and it was incredible! Faithful man of the church and God spoke about how a faith crises can lead to a stronger faith. His words if shared are going to do amazing things with people like myself and for the growth in the church one day. He mentions the huge amount of people that are leaving or have left but he's telling us that the people that come out of that will make the church so much better than it currently is. If you can allow 53 minutes of your time to listen, I'd love your thoughts. To a person like me that's felt like a terrible human for losing my testimony, this gives one an idea that one day I might just come around to understanding what I'm to do. 

I hope for that day for you and also some of my loved ones. 
 

Quote

Where can I turn for peace?
Where is my solace
When other sources cease to make me whole?
When with a wounded heart, anger, or malice,
I draw myself apart,
Searching my soul?

Where, when my aching grows,
Where, when I languish,
Where, in my need to know, where can I run?
Where is the quiet hand to calm my anguish?
Who, who can understand?
He, only One.

He answers privately,
Reaches my reaching
In my Gethsemane, Savior and Friend.
Gentle the peace he finds for my beseeching.
Constant he is and kind,
Love without end.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, manol said:

The 100-word limit is BRILLIANT!

I think you have been talking about relationships between LDS parents and children wherein the children have left the church and the relationships are abusive, harmful, dangerous, and/or dysfunctional.

I think you oppose “pestering” family members who leave the Church, but are in favor of loving those family members and praying for them.

I think you favor respecting agency and turning it over to God, even if it takes many painful and fearful years, and things may not resolve during this earth life.

I think you would not risk trusting under some circumstances.

 

Yes, pretty close. I think you may be in agreement with all except the last sentence.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, manol said:

The 100-word limit is BRILLIANT!

I think you have been talking about relationships between LDS parents and children wherein the children have left the church and the relationships are abusive, harmful, dangerous, and/or dysfunctional.

I think you oppose “pestering” family members who leave the Church, but are in favor of loving those family members and praying for them.

I think you favor respecting agency and turning it over to God, even if it takes many painful and fearful years, and things may not resolve during this earth life.

I think you would not risk trusting under some circumstances.

 

94 words. Right on!

I think we may be in agreement with all except the last sentence mainly because we differ in our understanding of Elder Scott’s words.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[John L]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Continuing to pester disaffected family members about eternal families is, according to posters here, offensive and harmful to their relationships.

Here's one way to explain how the pestering comes across according to the disaffected family members I've talked to. Most tend to fell like when they were faithful members, family members treated them as equals, when they talked, it was face time face, on equal terms, equall standing. But once family members found out they left the church, it's as if the family members feel like they're on the penthouse balcony, and while looking down at the street where all the common folk are, screaming HEY HEY! If you want back up here, just do what I tell you and the doorman will buzz you in! 

And it really doesn't matter who the person is or what they have accomplished in life. The person leaving the church could be a bag man living on the street, or a famous Dr. like my uncle who is very accomplished, in my experience faithful members will view the wayward member as an apostate, and lose all trust in the individual because they feel as if Satan has won the battle and now the wayward soul is under his influence. Trust can only be restored after the repentance process is complete and the family members see the wayward individual sitting in sacrament meeting for an extended amount of time. 

Am I the only ine who has seen this from faithful members?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

13 minutes ago, John L said:

Here's one way to explain how the pestering comes across according to the disaffected family members I've talked to. Most tend to fell like when they were faithful members, family members treated them as equals, when they talked, it was face time face, on equal terms, equall standing. But once family members found out they left the church, it's as if the family members feel like they're on the penthouse balcony, and while looking down at the street where all the common folk are, screaming HEY HEY! If you want back up here, just do what I tell you and the doorman will buzz you in! 

And it really doesn't matter who the person is or what they have accomplished in life. The person leaving the church could be a bag man living on the street, or a famous Dr. like my uncle who is very accomplished, in my experience faithful members will view the wayward member as an apostate, and lose all trust in the individual because they feel as if Satan has won the battle and now the wayward soul is under his influence. Trust can only be restored after the repentance process is complete and the family members see the wayward individual sitting in sacrament meeting for an extended amount of time. 

Am I the only ine who has seen this from faithful members?

I think what you're describing here is the perception of former believers, not the reality.

My younger brother decided to go down the wrong path in high school. He started drinking, doing drugs, having sex with his girlfriend, etc., while still attending church and putting on a fake facade. He did his best to keep what he was doing a secret. As things came out my parents and I and my siblings would have heart to heart talks with him to try and reach him. But ultimately he decided to go his own way and  couple of years after high school he had his name removed from the records of the church. 

He slowly distanced himself from us, and it's not because we kept badgering him about religion. I think he just felt uncomfortable around us and didn't like hearing us pray, discuss the gospel, etc. at family gatherings, or considered us all to be brainwashed sheep in a cult. And because he went his own way, we had much less in common. 

He didn't want to be around us anymore. We would invite him to things and he never showed up. This happened over and over again, until we pretty much stopped inviting him. We hardly see or talk to him anymore. 

I'm sure his perception of reality is along the lines of what you described, but my perception of the situation is very different. 

 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I hope for that day for you and also some of my loved ones. 
 

 

❤️ Thanks!

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes indeed it would be if one had ever contemplated it; however, mine was a riff off of one poster who suggest that a nice faith crisis might straighten out another’s attitude. On a side note, a number of my loved ones have left the Church. I have never had even the slightest ill will toward any of them. I have observed that some have had horrific experiences as a result, and I deeply sorrow for them.

I need to ask forgiveness, I understand how you understood my suggestion of having a faith crisis and not taking it well.  Because most people probably don't come back to believing again. But hopefully those that know the church is true, might also need some faith in that knowing and maybe feel how the day could come that they don't know, and maybe that not knowing will help one open their minds if their minds are set in stone.

It's hard to describe without you watching the video I hoped you'd watch to understand because I lack ability to explain very well. Sorry that I don't make myself very clear, I do understand how a faith crisis can hurt people too.

In fact my son's good friend, he has three now that disbelieve the church is true, is probably an alcoholic now or on the road to being one. My son and these friends all served missions and then each found things they'd not known about the church just like myself. But I never told any of my children, I didn't want them to go down my road. But somehow these young men did.

The one that is a drinker has parents that probably never dreamed this could happen. Very stalwart members, and are former neighbors who we've occasionally gone out to dinner with. I'd love to reach out to their son because I'm so worried. They don't know about his drinking though, at least I doubt they do because it'd kill her. Because her brother also had a "faith crisis" along with his wife and he started drinking heavily and ended up killing himself. So not all faith crises end well, so again, I'm sorry for suggesting one get one.

ETA: Just ran across this meme, wonder how true it is:

Edited January 19, 2023 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think what you're describing here is the perception of former believers, not the reality.

My younger brother decided to go down the wrong path in high school. He started drinking, doing drugs, having sex with his girlfriend, etc., while still attending church and putting on a fake facade. He did his best to keep what he was doing a secret. As things came out my parents and I and my siblings would have heart to heart talks with him to try and reach him. But ultimately he decided to go his own way and  couple of years after high school he had his name removed from the records of the church. 

He slowly distanced himself from us, and it's not because we kept badgering him about religion. I think he just felt uncomfortable around us and didn't like hearing us pray, discuss the gospel, etc. at family gatherings, or considered us all to be brainwashed sheep in a cult. And because he went his own way, we had much less in common. 

He didn't want to be around us anymore. We would invite him to things and he never showed up. This happened over and over again, until we pretty much stopped inviting him. We hardly see or talk to him anymore. 

I'm sure his perception of reality is along the lines of what you described, but my perception of the situation is very different. 

 

I'm sorry, I hope things change in the future. My brother is an alcoholic and the years he wasn't sober, luckily he is now, he'd never come around. I think because of embarrassment. He was such a handsome guy but his smoking and alcoholism caused him to lose that attractiveness and he also lost his marriage etc. So it could be that your brother is embarrassed at his actions too. 

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, John L said:

It's not his fault members of our faith lose trust in a person just because someone decides to leave the faith.

I don't think it's a trust issue so much as an issue of community. I suppose if you wanted to call it tribalism I could probably go along with that too.

For example, in the city where I live there are a few dentists who happen to be members of the church. So far as I can tell, they are perfectly adequate professionals operating in their field.

I don't go to any of them myself, but I know several members do; and they do so not because they are more trustworthy than those other heathen dentists around town (like the one I see), but because - given the choice between a number of comparable service providers - they elect to support the ones they feel a sense of community with.

And when that bond of communality is broken, then yes, that might be all it takes for some people to decide to go and see someone else - maybe someone with a closer office perhaps, or someone with more convenient operating hours, etc. But it isn't because they have lost trust in their former dentist due to his decision to leave the faith - it's just that he is now indistinguishable from all of the other (non-member) dentists out there.

 

16 hours ago, John L said:

What does it say about our church if someone wants to pursue life outside of it, but they're scared to tell loved ones, clients or friends because they're scared people will reject them? In my opinion, you're blaming the victim. 

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that the person who is lying to others about his beliefs in order to maintain a stream of income is "the victim."

If you want to do that sort of thing then have the integrity to go into politics where that sort of behavior is expected.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Amulek

[MustardSeed]

Let’s talk embarrassment vs draw to commonality.  
 

Let’s use this site as an example. There are some people on this site that think similarly to the way I think.  There are also more what I would call black and white, or non questioners, or zealous folks.  I admire that.  Don’t want to be it but I can respect it.  I also don’t wanna go to lunch with it.  I imagine if the afterworld looks as basic as we teach it weekly in church and primary, those people who are 100% in without question will inherit the top. I don’t want to hang out with them for eternity so I will be happy where I’m at. As far as earthly experiences, it’s not that I’m embarrassed to be around them. I just don’t have much in common and in a large crowd of them, I simply do not fit in. We all know it. Why show up?

 

just an alternative view to the assumption of shame and embarrassment.  May or may not apply. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I need to ask forgiveness, I understand how you understood my suggestion of having a faith crisis and not taking it well.  Because most people probably don't come back to believing again. But hopefully those that know the church is true, might also need some faith in that knowing and maybe feel how the day could come that they don't know, and maybe that not knowing will help one open their minds if their minds are set in stone.

It's hard to describe without you watching the video I hoped you'd watch to understand because I lack ability to explain very well. Sorry that I don't make myself very clear, I do understand how a faith crisis can hurt people too.

In fact my son's good friend, he has three now that disbelieve the church is true, is probably an alcoholic now or on the road to being one. My son and these friends all served missions and then each found things they'd not known about the church just like myself. But I never told any of my children, I didn't want them to go down my road. But somehow these young men did.

The one that is a drinker has parents that probably never dreamed this could happen. Very stalwart members, and are former neighbors who we've occasionally gone out to dinner with. I'd love to reach out to their son because I'm so worried. They don't know about his drinking though, at least I doubt they do because it'd kill her. Because her brother also had a "faith crisis" along with his wife and he started drinking heavily and ended up killing himself. So not all faith crises end well, so again, I'm sorry for suggesting one get one.

ETA: Just ran across this meme, wonder how true it is:

Thank you for this. My experience is that the first things to be enjoyed with the the new-found freedom often involve spirits of another kind. That’s a dead end road. I’m sorry for all who find themselves traveling it. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:46 AM, maj said:

Hello,

Yesterday, my 16 year old son spoke with me to tell me that he didn't want to attend Church anymore.

I assured him that I loved him and that I always would. I didn't ask him lots of questions because I didn't want him to feel under pressure or cornered. I asked him to keep communicating with me and that we would keep communicating openly.

Privately, I have grieved as this decision makes me sad.

 

My request is for any suggestions or help on how I can maintain and strengthen our relationship without what was a large part of it?

Thanks in advance.

If this is none of my business feel free to tell me to buzz off, but I have been involved with these things for 17 years. When loved ones leave the Church some may have been indulging  in compulsive behaviors of various sorts for a time in which parents were not aware. This seems to be a pattern we have seen repeated many times. I have often thought that if each sin had its own distinctive odor none of us would come to church.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

On 1/19/2023 at 12:51 AM, Bernard Gui said:

94 words. Right on!

Did you include the six-word sentence at the beginning of my post?

On 1/19/2023 at 12:51 AM, Bernard Gui said:

I think we may be in agreement with all except the last sentence mainly because we differ in our understanding of Elder Scott’s words.

Thank you.

I don't disagree with your last sentence, but it's possible that our levels of risk-aversion would differ in some situations.

It is the second-to-last sentence I'd like to revisit.

Imo we are not necessarily doomed to possibly years or a lifetime (or an eternity?) of pain and fear by someone else's choices. Imo we have the option of choosing to see things differently. And in doing so we make healing the relationship far more likely because when our true feelings shine through (as they inevitably will), we will be telegraphing love instead of pain and fear and condemnation.

I have come to genuinely believe that perfect love casts out fear. So imo if our best analysis of the situation results in fearful conclusions, then perhaps our best analysis has room for improvement.   "How to" is beyond the scope of this post. 

 

On 1/19/2023 at 6:51 AM, John L said:

Here's one way to explain how the pestering comes across according to the disaffected family members I've talked to. Most tend to fell like when they were faithful members, family members treated them as equals, when they talked, it was face time face, on equal terms, equal standing. But once family members found out they left the church, it's as if the family members feel like they're on the penthouse balcony, and while looking down at the street where all the common folk are, screaming HEY HEY! If you want back up here, just do what I tell you and the doorman will buzz you in! 

And it really doesn't matter who the person is or what they have accomplished in life. The person leaving the church could be a bag man living on the street, or a famous Dr. like my uncle who is very accomplished, in my experience faithful members will view the wayward member as an apostate, and lose all trust in the individual because they feel as if Satan has won the battle and now the wayward soul is under his influence. Trust can only be restored after the repentance process is complete and the family members see the wayward individual sitting in sacrament meeting for an extended amount of time.

I've never really been pestered so my reply will not be representative of those who have been. 

Early on I was invited to participate in helping to move a family (something I used to routinely organize) and I took offense, but that was me indulging in pride and being hurtful towards an old friend (the bishop) and treasuring my grievances, and hopefully I would not react that way today.

[edit:  After posting the above paragraph, I wondered why I had never called my old bishop and apologized.  So I did.  He didn't even remember it; he had NEVER taken offense and so the event had left no imprint on his memory.  Frankly this impresses the heck out of me:  I had brought a very negative energy into the conversation where I had indignantly rejected his invitation to help someone move, so much so that the event sticks out prominently in my memory.  In stark contrast, he had never bought into that negative energy and so it had zero effect on him.  THAT is the kind of man I want to be when I grow up.]

In family-and-friends gatherings where I'm the lone non-member I've only felt aversion from a few of the friends-of-family who didn't know me.   If I'm a second-class citizen in the eyes of some, hey that's an experience few of my gender and ethnicity ever get a taste of.  Speaking for myself only:  No harm, no foul. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by manol

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If this is none of my business feel free to tell me to buzz off, but I have been involved with these things for 17 years. When loved ones leave the Church some may have been indulging  in compulsive behaviors of various sorts for a time in which parents were not aware. This seems to be a pattern we have seen repeated many times. I have often thought that if each sin had its own distinctive odor none of us would come to church.

I don't think it is right to suspect such things of our loved ones who leave the church any more than we would suspect it from our loved ones who are still active and hiding it from their parents.

I too have been involved in these things for over a decade.   I think it is a pretty safe assumption that just about any 16 year old boy is indulging in these things at times.   Leaving the church, in my experience, usually has little to nothing to do with it.  The vast majority of those who attend 12 step meetings are active members.   Most of the brethren you shake hands with at church are doing the same thing.  It seems to be a pattern I have observed over the years.  I don't think we are ever going to do much good in helping people stay in the church when this is the first thing we suspect.  That will only make them want to run away from us even faster - and I understand why.  

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, manol said:

I don't disagree with your last sentence, but it's possible that our levels of risk-aversion would differ in some situations.

It is the second-to-last sentence I'd like to revisit.

Imo we are not necessarily doomed to possibly years or a lifetime (or an eternity?) of pain and fear by someone else's choices. Imo we have the option of choosing to see things differently. And in doing so we make healing the relationship far more likely because when our true feelings shine through (as they inevitably will), we will be telegraphing love instead of pain and fear and condemnation.

I have come to genuinely believe that perfect love casts out fear. So imo if our best analysis of the situation results in fearful conclusions, then perhaps our best analysis has room for improvement.   "How to" is beyond the scope of this post. 

I’m not sure how levels of risk aversion apply. The option to choose differently will probably not be available until sufficient time has passed. 

In my experience healing such relationships takes years of hard work regardless of how much love may be felt. Trust is very difficult to restore even when one deeply loves the offender. That does not indicate a lack of faith, hope, or charity. It is the way things work. It is similar to a grievous bodily wound that may heal in its time. Maybe it won’t even happen in this lifetime.

One must first come to the truth that the sufferer cannot fix the offender. The only one who can do that is the Savior. The reverse is also true. The sufferer is made whole by the Atonement of our Savior, but in His time and way. Patience is the lesson learned.

A friend was badly abused by her father when she was young.  For the rest of her life she feared him, did not trust him, and stayed away from him. When he was nearing death, she decided to make a long journey to reconcile. It did not repair the damage he had done, but it removed a huge burden from her shoulders. She is at peace. It took her decades of hard work to get to that point.

I’ve met many people in these situations. It was never easy for any of them, yours truly included.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

  "How to" is beyond the scope of this post

This is probably where we are not communicating. My experience with the “how to” may not be the same as yours.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bernard Gui