Elder Holland on Suicide

[Vanguard]

11 minutes ago, Rain said:

I can understand that perception as well which is why I didn't get after seeking, but wondered openly if there was another possibility. But his post didn't come as insensitive - people read their experience of hearing things like that from insensitive people into his post. That's understandable.  I do it too. If we know we are doing it though it can help us better listen to others.

I agree we should be careful not to jump to conclusions regards to context/motive/intent. By the same token, those who would post in ways that come off as being obtuse should exercise care in how they communicate about a very sensitive topic and shouldn't be surprised if many others read less than genuine motives behind their comments.

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I can understand that perception as well which is why I didn't get after seeking, but wondered openly if there was another possibility. But his post didn't come as insensitive - people read their experience of hearing things like that from insensitive people into his post. That's understandable.  I do it too. If we know we are doing it though it can help us better listen to others.

It didn’t come off as insensitive to some. It did come off as insensitive to others. Just as others cannot tell you what your own thoughts and feelings are, neither can you do the same to others. You have absolutely no way of knowing why each individual reacted the way they did, and it’s not fair of you to make a blanket statement that it was for reason X. 

[Amulek]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What he posted, without any context was a totally jerk thing to say.

No, it wasn’t.  I am surprised you view it that way.

For what it's worth, I didn't know it was a sincere / serious response either. Like @SeekingUnderstanding, my first inclination was that it was a snarky reply.

Maybe that says more about me than anyone else, but my general internet default is to presume that any comment which could conceivably be snarky was, in fact, meant to be snarky. Regrettably, with the way anonymous message boards work, that tends to be right more often than not. It's good to be reminded every now an then that it isn't always the case, but I wouldn't be too hard on someone for interpreting it differently either. 

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, Amulek said:

For what it's worth, I didn't know it was a sincere / serious response either. Like @SeekingUnderstanding, my first inclination was that it was a snarky reply.

Maybe that says more about me than anyone else, but my general internet default is to presume that any comment which could conceivably be snarky was, in fact, meant to be snarky. Regrettably, with the way anonymous message boards work, that tends to be right more often than not. It's good to be reminded every now an then that it isn't always the case, but I wouldn't be too hard on someone for interpreting it differently either. 

 

The probability of sarcasm in any given post is much much much greater than the probability of someone who has actually died and then been brought back to life. That said, there is a lot to be said in favor of defaulting to good faith and good motives on the part of those we interact with. 

[Thinking]

Quote

To any of our youth out there who are struggling, whatever your concerns or difficulties, death by suicide is manifestly not the answer.

Or...To any of our youth out there who are struggling and considering suicide, whatever your concerns or difficulties, please talk to someone: a friend, teacher, parent, family member, anybody you trust.

Quote

It will not relieve the pain you are feeling or that you think you are causing.

Or...I know that your pain is real. Please let us help you.

Quote

In a world that so desperately needs all the light it can get, please do not minimize the eternal light God put in your soul before this world was.

This statement should just be deleted. It is somewhat of a guilt trip.

Quote

Talk to someone. Ask for help.

👍

Quote

Do not destroy a life that Christ gave his life to preserve.

Guilt trip. Delete this sentence.

Quote

You can bear the struggles of this mortal life because we will help you bear them. You are stronger than you think. Help is available, from others and especially from God. You are loved and valued and needed.

👍

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

I can understand that perception as well which is why I didn't get after seeking, but wondered openly if there was another possibility. But his post didn't come as insensitive - people read their experience of hearing things like that from insensitive people into his post. That's understandable.  I do it too. If we know we are doing it though it can help us better listen to others.

I guess what I don’t get is why after we know it wasn’t sarcasm, Rod, someone who actually committed suicide, who has had to endure the pain of that experience and lived and lives with the aftermath more than anyone else on the board (though possibly there is someone else who killed themselves, but was brought back) is being labeled as insensitive rather than being given permission to share his experience as he sees fit.  I am baffled.  To me, the one that should be protected and cared for the most with this subject is Rod, but instead he is being told he needs to be the protector and is a jerk if he doesn’t act that way.  I just don’t understand that attitude. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Calm

[Raingirl]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I guess what I don’t get is why after we know it wasn’t sarcasm, Rod, someone who actually committed suicide, who has had to endure the pain of that experience and lived and lives with the aftermath more than anyone else on the board (though possibly there is someone else who killed themselves, but was brought back) is being labeled as insensitive rather than being given permission to share his experience as he sees fit.  I am baffled.  To me, the one that should be protected and cared for the most with this subject is Rod, but instead he is being told he needs to be the protector and is a jerk if he doesn’t act that way.  I just don’t understand that attitude. 

Way to twist people’s words and intentions. 
 

Some people felt his post came off as insensitive when they didn’t have the context. That’s completely understandable. Especially on this board where sarcastic and insensitive posts are common. Once the context was given, people understood the situation. Yet here you are with judgmentalism and name-calling. 
 

I guess you’re yet another poster who believes no one can have a different opinion from yours and thinks they know better what someone is thinking or feeling than the person themself. 
 

No one told him he couldn’t share his experience. Indeed, once people had context, they understood the post differently than without the context. 
 

You judge others for what you perceive as insensitivity, how about showing some sensitivity for those who didn’t understand a post without appropriate context?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Way to twist people’s words and intentions. 
 

Some people felt his post came off as insensitive when they didn’t have the context. That’s completely understandable. Especially on this board where sarcastic and insensitive posts are common. Once the context was given, people understood the situation. Yet here you are with judgmentalism and name-calling. 
 

I guess you’re yet another poster who believes no one can have a different opinion from yours and thinks they know better what someone is thinking or feeling than the person themself. 
 

No one told him he couldn’t share his experience. Indeed, once people had context, they understood the post differently than without the context. 
 

You judge others for what you perceive as insensitivity, how about showing some sensitivity for those who didn’t understand a post without appropriate context?

You know you are right.  I totally blew it by misremembering what I found troublesome. I should remember how screwy my memory is and reread posts if I am going to criticize someone for something I think they said.  I remembered Happy Jack as continuing to claim Rod was insensitive when what he was actually critiquing by then was the lack of context in the original post.

While I personally believe that there was no need for more context if one just took the words as a simple statement of facts and Rod should not be critiqued (held responsible) because people read insensitivity or anything else into his statement prior to him clarifying, that is very different than calling him insensitive. My apologies to all, especially Jack and Rod for letting my poor memory get the better of me.

I would promise it wouldn’t happen again, but even with my memory functioning full throttle I know I let my indignation gets the better of me at times and jump to conclusions, so I can only promise I will try harder. 

Thank you for making my error clear. I need to be reminded that I have to be more careful these days. Got a lecture from my daughter this morning for much the same thing with my husband, not registering his change of position after I had expressed my problem with a recent action he had taken that messed up my plans. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

You know you are right.  I totally blew it by misremembering what I found troublesome. I should remember how screwy my memory is and reread posts if I am going to criticize someone for something I think they said.  I remembered Happy Jack as continuing to claim Rod was insensitive when what he was actually critiquing by then was the lack of context in the original post.

While I personally believe that there was no need for more context if one just took the words as a simple statement of facts and Rod should not be critiqued (held responsible) because people read insensitivity or anything else into his statement prior to him clarifying, that is very different than calling him insensitive. My apologies to all, especially Jack and Rod for letting my poor memory get the better of me.

I would promise it wouldn’t happen again, but even with my memory functioning full throttle I know I let my indignation gets the better of me at times and jump to conclusions, so I can only promise I will try harder. 

Thank you for making my error clear. I need to be reminded that I have to be more careful these days. Got a lecture from my daughter this morning for much the same thing with my husband, not registering his change of position after I had expressed my problem with a recent action he had taken that messed up my plans. 

Like I tell the students I sub for in class, I'm human...you're only human Calm, and a good one at that!!

[HappyJackWagon]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

You know you are right.  I totally blew it by misremembering what I found troublesome. I should remember how screwy my memory is and reread posts if I am going to criticize someone for something I think they said.  I remembered Happy Jack as continuing to claim Rod was insensitive when what he was actually critiquing by then was the lack of context in the original post.

While I personally believe that there was no need for more context if one just took the words as a simple statement of facts and Rod should not be critiqued (held responsible) because people read insensitivity or anything else into his statement prior to him clarifying, that is very different than calling him insensitive. My apologies to all, especially Jack and Rod for letting my poor memory get the better of me.

I would promise it wouldn’t happen again, but even with my memory functioning full throttle I know I let my indignation gets the better of me at times and jump to conclusions, so I can only promise I will try harder. 

Thank you for making my error clear. I need to be reminded that I have to be more careful these days. Got a lecture from my daughter this morning for much the same thing with my husband, not registering his change of position after I had expressed my problem with a recent action he had taken that messed up my plans. 

Right. The only reason this continues is perhaps because people like me feel like I've been scolded for taking the original comment as snark (which was by far the more likely scenario). But I admit I was a bit immature about responding to that scolding   I was critiquing lack of context but even more, by that point I was responding to a comment by Rod that scolded those who didn't know the unstated context. Regardless, my opinion is that context is good. I'm glad Rod is safe. And it's really time to move past the misunderstanding.

 

 

[Chum]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

I need to get better at this myself.

In fairness, our exposure to couched intent is pretty well ceaseless. It's difficult to not be conditioned by it.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

In fairness, our exposure to couched intent is pretty well ceaseless. It's difficult to not be conditioned by it.

I'm pretty sure that nofear linked to the same article in his thread.  I agree it's becoming a huge problem.  One that I don't think we take seriously enough.

[Rain]

18 hours ago, Raingirl said:

It didn’t come off as insensitive to some. It did come off as insensitive to others. Just as others cannot tell you what your own thoughts and feelings are, neither can you do the same to others. You have absolutely no way of knowing why each individual reacted the way they did, and it’s not fair of you to make a blanket statement that it was for reason X. 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make a blanket statement.   I meant the exact opposite.  Right now I am dealing with some pretty bad pain from my surgery and this board is a good distraction,  but I've found it my thinking processes very hampered.  If you point out where I made that statement I will change it. 

[bsjkki]

Good advice for all (imo). I often remember this clip when writing responses. 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by bsjkki

[Gillebre]

I figure I'll contribute a bit to this thread where I can.

As a teenager I experienced fantasies of suicide regularly on the bus to and from school when I was away from family and not engaged in schoolwork.  The pain I felt came from being exposed to nudity and sexuality at the age of 8, and then addicted to pornography a short while later. Many issues at home coalesced and feelings of same gender attraction manifested in what I was looking at. An abusive home life made everything much more challenging.

I remember being 14 and feeling so alone, so vile and worthless, and in the midst of these fantasies about it being better for others if I were gone, how I wouldn't be missed, I met the Lord in these darkest moments of my life. I remember clinging for dear life to Gospel hymns on CD, this was probably around 2003, because nothing else helped. It was when I was listening to I Know That My Redeemer Lives that I first felt His presence. I somehow knew at that moment that the words of the hymn were literally true.

He really does live to wipe away my tears. He lives to impart *all* blessings. He lives to bring me safely back into His presence. Life was still incredibly difficult with a homophobic and abusive father, but I now knew that I wasn't alone in enduring such things. My personal Savior was preparing the way before me, the way of His deliverance, so that I could not only survive, but thrive.

Part of my challenge was not being taught about how the Atonement of Jesus Christ really works. I didn't understand that He didn't see me the way I saw myself and my problems and fears. He didn't see me as a drain on His love or divine resources. He simply needed me to realize that nothing I could do would change how He felt about me, or deter Him from trying to rescue me as often as possible.

I now know the Lord personally, and I can witness with confidence that He is and will always be faithful to us even when it doesn't always seem that way in the moment. He really does feel after us. He reaches out and invites us to bind ourselves to Him through holy covenants, and by virtue of those covenants I am closer to Him than ever. Hope and happiness are possible through Him, by Him, and of Him. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Gillebre

[rodheadlee]

I never or rarely post sarcasm. One of the things I lost in my suicide was an ability to communicate well with people, along with a near photographic memory. I may have gotten a Second Chance but I lost some of me. Second Chance is the name of the boat we live on because my wife died on the operating table and was given a second chance also.

[Chum]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm pretty sure that nofear linked to the same article in his thread.

Oh. Nice. It's a good article.

[MustardSeed]

21 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I never or rarely post sarcasm. One of the things I lost in my suicide was an ability to communicate well with people, along with a near photographic memory. I may have gotten a Second Chance but I lost some of me. Second Chance is the name of the boat we live on because my wife died on the operating table and was given a second chance also.

I did not know that you had a history of non completion suicide.  Is that the correct term?  I haven't been updated in a few years.  

I'm glad you're here. You have a unique viewpoint we can learn from.  

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:55 PM, Tacenda said:

My nephew is having these same issues, my sister just told me. He said he listens to a song and during it he'll hear voices or maybe the words backwards, but voices in his head. They are looking into what is going on. He's in his late twenties. 

Best wishes to your nephew ... and to his aunt.  😉  I hope they find out what's going on, and find viable solutions.

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Gillebre said:

I figure I'll contribute a bit to this thread where I can.

As a teenager I experienced fantasies of suicide regularly on the bus to and from school when I was away from family and not engaged in schoolwork.  The pain I felt came from being exposed to nudity and sexuality at the age of 8, and then addicted to pornography a short while later. Many issues at home coalesced and feelings of same gender attraction manifested in what I was looking at. An abusive home life made everything much more challenging.

I remember being 14 and feeling so alone, so vile and worthless, and in the midst of these fantasies about it being better for others if I were gone, how I wouldn't be missed, I met the Lord in these darkest moments of my life. I remember clinging for dear life to Gospel hymns on CD, this was probably around 2003, because nothing else helped. It was when I was listening to I Know That My Redeemer Lives that I first felt His presence. I somehow knew at that moment that the words of the hymn were literally true.

He really does live to wipe away my tears. He lives to impart *all* blessings. He lives to bring me safely back into His presence. Life was still incredibly difficult with a homophobic and abusive father, but I now knew that I wasn't alone in enduring such things. My personal Savior was preparing the way before me, the way of His deliverance, so that I could not only survive, but thrive.

Part of my challenge was not being taught about how the Atonement of Jesus Christ really works. I didn't understand that He didn't see me the way I saw myself and my problems and fears. He didn't see me as a drain on His love or divine resources. He simply needed me to realize that nothing I could do would change how He felt about me, or deter Him from trying to rescue me as often as possible.

I now know the Lord personally, and I can witness with confidence that He is and will always be faithful to us even when it doesn't always seem that way in the moment. He really does feel after us. He reaches out and invites us to bind ourselves to Him through holy covenants, and by virtue of those covenants I am closer to Him than ever. Hope and happiness are possible through Him, by Him, and of Him. 

Sheesh.  My goodness.  I have "no" problems, thank you very much.  Thanks for being vulnerable enough and having the courage to share your story.  I laud you.

Warm Regards and Best Wishes from a Brother in Christ,

Ken

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Sheesh.  My goodness.  I have "no" problems, thank you very much.  Thanks for being vulnerable enough and having the courage to share your story.  I laud you.

Warm Regards and Best Wishes from a Brother in Christ,

Ken

There are times when we can see how much pain others have had to deal with and be grateful.  I think it's important though to know that each of us very much do have problems and they are so difficult for us, even if for others it may not seem like much.  

It's one of those thìngs I saw in my second depression.  I remember sitting there chewing myself out for being such an ungrateful and bad person.  I told myself "what is wrong with you! You have this and this and this. Why are you crying about it all?"  Completely gone from mind mind as I berated myself was that I had just dealt with this and this and this.  

It's made me understand much more why not to compare myself.  Because my life, and your life, IS hard.  And the gifts we have been given to deal with hard things are different than the gifts other people have been given. 

You might feel an immediate gratitude when you see the trials of others, but never put down yourself for having what seems to be less.  You matter and your trials do too.

[bsjkki]

6 hours ago, Chum said:

In fairness, our exposure to couched intent is pretty well ceaseless. It's difficult to not be conditioned by it.

I didn’t read this the first time but did with the 2nd post. I took a screenshot for personal reference and as a reminder. Nice one page summary.

 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

There are times when we can see how much pain others have had to deal with and be grateful.  I think it's important though to know that each of us very much do have problems and they are so difficult for us, even if for others it may not seem like much.  

It's one of those thìngs I saw in my second depression.  I remember sitting there chewing myself out for being such an ungrateful and bad person.  I told myself "what is wrong with you! You have this and this and this. Why are you crying about it all?"  Completely gone from mind mind as I berated myself was that I had just dealt with this and this and this.  

It's made me understand much more why not to compare myself.  Because my life, and your life, IS hard.  And the gifts we have been given to deal with hard things are different than the gifts other people have been given. 

You might feel an immediate gratitude when you see the trials of others, but never put down yourself for having what seems to be less.  You matter and your trials do too.

It's such a losing game too, since there will always be someone who is worse off, which, if you always have to be grateful because you don't have it worse, means that you never allow yourself to have any authentic negative emotions.  And that never works out.

But I understand what you are saying because I have found myself doing the same.  I know, intellectually, that my trials matter but emotionally and mentally it can still be a struggle not to feel like the most ungrateful brat not to be happy because of all of my blessings when you see what some people are dealing with. 

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

 ... Right now I am dealing with some pretty bad pain from my surgery and this board is a good distraction,  but I've found it my thinking processes very hampered. ... 

I'm sorry to hear of your struggles.  I hope some effective ways can be found to manage your pain.  I wish you the very best.

-Ken

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

It's made me understand much more why not to compare myself.  Because my life, and your life, IS hard.  And the gifts we have been given to deal with hard things are different than the gifts other people have been given. 

You might feel an immediate gratitude when you see the trials of others, but never put down yourself for having what seems to be less.  You matter and your trials do too.

Yes, in trauma counseling class I was taught to not minimize people's losses by comparing them to someone else's. I think it is easier to do this for other people sometimes and we internally minimize our own struggles or guilt trip ourselves. We need to balance our internal narratives and give ourselves time for recovery and pain. I do find people who do go through really rough things often are more sympathetic for those going through trials even if they are small in comparison.