Elder Holland on Suicide

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Elder Holland, in his recent address said the following:

Quote

To any of our youth out there who are struggling, whatever your concerns or difficulties, death by suicide is manifestly not the answer. It will not relieve the pain you are feeling or that you think you are causing. In a world that so desperately needs all the light it can get, please do notminimize the eternal light God put in yoursoul before this world was. Talk to someone. Ask for help. Do not destroy a life that Christ gave His life to preserve. You can bear the struggles of this mortal life because we will help you bear them. You are stronger than you think. Help isavailable, from others and especially from God. You are loved and valued and needed. We need you! “Fear not: believe only.”

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

[rodheadlee]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Holland, in his recent address said the following:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

Yes. I committed suicide once. I had the same mental anguish on the other side. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Holland, in his recent address said the following:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

I don't know if he was speaking metaphorically (as in a "suicide is not the answer" kind of way) or if he is being literal.  I believe it is more likely to be the first because I don't think we know anything specific about what happens after death for someone who commits suicide, other than that God will be merciful.

And I don't think that Elder Holland has any kind of clearer picture on that than what other apostles have already said on the subject, nor do I believe that he was meaning to imply that he did.

Edited April 11, 2022 by bluebell

[SeekingUnderstanding]

36 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes. I committed suicide once. I had the same mental anguish on the other side. 

Clearly we know nothing of the afterlife. If only there were a group of men called of God to reveal such truths unto us. 

[JAHS]

Just now, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Clearly we know nothing of the afterlife. If only there were a group of men called of God to reveal such truths unto us. 

I think we know enough about the afterlife to know it is where we want to be after we die. The Prophets and Apostles have to live by faith just like we do.

[Amulek]

42 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

I take him to simply be saying that suicide isn't going to make things better; so, despite how you may feel, suicide isn't really the solution to your problems.

I don't think he was trying to make any sort of commentary about the future mental states of those who exist in the spirit world.

 

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Clearly we know nothing of the afterlife. If only there were a group of men called of God to reveal such truths unto us. 

Knowing nothing about the afterlife, and being able to prove nothing about the afterlife, are two different things.  You can speak for yourself on either one of them, but you can only speak for others on the second.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Knowing nothing about the afterlife, and being able to prove nothing about the afterlife, are two different things.  You can speak for yourself on either one of them, but you can only speak for others on the second.

I asked a serious question about how members interpret the words of a prophet of God. I got a snarky answer. I gave the snarky answer all the due consideration it deserved. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

Suicide doesn't relieve pain, it just tosses it over the wall where it lands on the people who care about you and smashes them flat.

I know it sounds like some formulaic pop-psych meaningless phrase that sounds good, but it's the truth.  When I heard Elder Holland say that, it was my first thought.  Horrible guilt, shame, PTSD, depression, there are a host of things that will occasionally end up visiting the friends and loved ones of folks who kill themselves.  

Shout out to all the ppl who have had a loved one commit suicide.  Any of you are welcome to tell me I'm off base, if you see things differently.

Edited April 11, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I asked a serious question about how members interpret the words of a prophet of God. I got a snarky answer. I gave the snarky answer all the due consideration it deserved. 

I didn't agree with the way that he chose to answer your question, but that's between you and rod.  I don't care to get in the middle of that fun discussion.

I was only speaking to your claim that we know nothing about the afterlife.  I took it to be an accurate statement of your beliefs   If you meant it to be completely sarcastic and not an accurate representation of your thoughts on the matter, then I apologize for misunderstanding you.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Suicide doesn't relieve pain, it just tosses it over the wall where it lands on the people who care about you and smashes them flat.

I know it sounds like some formulaic pop-psych meaningless phrase that sounds good, but it's the truth.  When I heard Elder Holland say that, it was my first thought.  Horrible guilt, shame, PTSD, depression, there are a host of things that will occasionally end up visiting the friends and loved ones who kill themselves.  

Shout out to all the ppl who have had a loved one commit suicide.  Any of you are welcome to tell me I'm off base, if you see things differently.

On another form I visit I read of someone’s mother that ran out of the room in despair at the words. She lost another child to suicide and clung to the idea that at least they were at peace now. Just curious how others saw it. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I didn't agree with the way that he chose to answer your question, but that's between you and rod.  I don't care to get in the middle of that fun discussion.

I was only speaking to your claim that we know nothing about the afterlife.  I took it to be an accurate statement of your beliefs   If you meant it to be completely sarcastic and not an accurate representation of your thoughts on the matter, then I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I meant it as a sarcastic response (matching the tone of the post). 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

On another form I visit I read of someone’s mother that ran out of the room in despair at the words. She lost another child to suicide and clung to the idea that at least they were at peace now. Just curious how others saw it. 

I hope she was able to turn to God in that moment, to find some solace and help in interpreting Elder Holland's words.

Edited April 11, 2022 by bluebell

[JAHS]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I meant it as a sarcastic response (matching the tone of the post). 

There's a rolling eyes emoji for that 🙄 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Holland, in his recent address said the following:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

I guess it's possible that after you die you might regret having committed suicide, but God is very merciful for people in that situation.

Elder M. Russell Ballard said:
“Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

“When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth” (“Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not,” Ensign, Oct. 1987, 8).

Edited April 11, 2022 by JAHS

[rongo]

Given Elder Holland's emphasis and efforts in teaching about mental health (and his own experience with that), I think the last thing he wanted to convey with his talk is that victims of suicide are having coals heaped upon their heads. I think what he wanted to convey was that it is not the answer to suffering in life. 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Clearly we know nothing of the afterlife. If only there were a group of men called of God to reveal such truths unto us. 

Have you ever read, pondered and prayed for understanding about Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138? There are many answers pertinent to your query found in those two wonderfully enlightening sections of scripture.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I asked a serious question about how members interpret the words of a prophet of God. I got a snarky answer. I gave the snarky answer all the due consideration it deserved. 

Are you sure it was snarky?  Rodheadlee has had an interesting life from what I can tell.  I'm not sure his answer was snarky.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Holland, in his recent address said the following:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

Suicide is an act committed in mortality. I think "the pain you are feeling" is in the present tense to emphasize the present. He is not claiming people will feel pain or relief in the next life on this point. I think that he is saying that what will relieve "the pain you are feeling" now, in this life, is to not minimize the eternal light God put in your soul before this world was; to talk to someone; ask for help; not destroy a mortal life that Christ gave His life to preserve; help from others and God; faith that you are stronger than you think; faith that you are loved and valued and needed; fear not. 

[Duncan]

I'd be interested in knowing how God tries to prevent suicide from happening. What does he do to try to stop it? Some people never say there is a problem and God is the only one who knows and so he is the only person who could help. If he actually has a plan beyond the plan of salvation for each of his children here, something they are to do in mortality then what becomes of these plans when they die? every year thousands of people commit suicide so I wonder what happens now with what they were supposed to do in mortality

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Holland, in his recent address said the following:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

"Suffer" in the sense that now they have something else to be harrowed up about. If their problem was unremitting clinically chronic depression, suicide would remove that particular problem, but it would be replaced by guilt over having killed oneself. Exchanging one problem for another, which may or may not be worse, doesn't seem to be a fair exchange.

If one doesn't have faith in Christ and in a glorious resurrection, and one believes that with death one is simply blotted out, then suicide seems like a very handy escape. No worries. But if, when one gets to the other side, and one finds that obliteration is not what happens, there would be anguish over what one did, even if it seemed like the only way out at the time. From the frying pan to the fire, in other words.

But what of those who genuinely suffer and do not have the faith? A young member of my former ward, whom I observed growing up, suffered from terrible chronic depression. He killed himself at age 19 or 20. My wife and I went over to comfort his grandfather at the time. It was a terrible situation. I trust the Lord will look upon these cases with great compassion and mercy. It's certainly not for us to judge. I am sure that the Atonement is powerful enough to cover that guilt upon genuine repentance in the afterlife.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes. I committed suicide once. I had the same mental anguish on the other side. 

Not funny.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Holland, in his recent address said the following:

When he says “it will not relieve the pain you are feeling” how do you interpret that? Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?

Yes that is how I interpreted it.  And it seems consistent with Mormon doctrine.  Your spirit continues, you continue, you still have all the same issues.  And it is not a helpful message.

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I'd be interested in knowing how God tries to prevent suicide from happening. What does he do to try to stop it? Some people never say there is a problem and God is the only one who knows and so he is the only person who could help. If he actually has a plan beyond the plan of salvation for each of his children here, something they are to do in mortality then what becomes of these plans when they die? every year thousands of people commit suicide so I wonder what happens now with what they were supposed to do in mortality

I still question the idea that suicide is actually a sin on par with murder. Is there a specific commandment saying "Thou shalt not kill thyself"? I haven't seen it. One prominent suicide is that of King Saul (the OT actually has two stories about this, one in which Saul is killed by someone else). But is Saul's suicide called out in the narrative as something he shouldn't have done? Nope. There are four other instances of suicide recorded in the OT, and one in the NT. And nowhere is it remarked upon that the acts were wrong. You'd think that as thorough as Leviticus is about things you're not supposed to do, suicide might be mentioned somewhere. But it's not.

D&C 59:6 says: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it."

That last clause is used to justify the prohibition against abortion, so perhaps it could also be used for suicide? But when we come down to it, these prohibitions pertain to behavior vis-a-vis others, not ourselves. Could one use "thou shalt not steal" as justification for forbidding the destruction of one's own property? One is, after all, stealing from oneself, right? 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

I attended a funeral on Saturday for a young person who had committed suicide. 

I think it's great that Elder Holland addressed the issue head on. The message has to be that suicide isn't the answer, whether details of the afterlife are known or not.

 

This talk from Ballard seemed to take a humble approach about how we just don't know enough to judge a person who has committed suicide. So there is no reason to judge. at all...

Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not (churchofjesuschrist.org)

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by HappyJackWagon