Elder Holland on Suicide

[Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes that is how I interpreted it.  And it seems consistent with Mormon doctrine.  Your spirit continues, you continue, you still have all the same issues.  And it is not a helpful message.

Curious why you think it isn't helpful? Suicide seems to be an escape, so wouldn't it be the obvious thing to point out that it really isn't an escape?

It is best if one obtains a high school diploma, or a four-year degree. Would it not be helpful to warn the would-be drop-out that quitting school is a bad idea, for various reasons? Of course, suicide is not fully comparable, since dropping out can be corrected later, yet suicide cannot. Thus it seems that counselling that suicide isn't the answer is a far more important message than counselling not to drop out of school.

[JAHS]

25 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I still question the idea that suicide is actually a sin on par with murder. Is there a specific commandment saying "Thou shalt not kill thyself"? I haven't seen it. One prominent suicide is that of King Saul (the OT actually has two stories about this, one in which Saul is killed by someone else). But is Saul's suicide called out in the narrative as something he shouldn't have done? Nope. There are four other instances of suicide recorded in the OT, and one in the NT. And nowhere is it remarked upon that the acts were wrong. You'd think that as thorough as Leviticus is about things you're not supposed to do, suicide might be mentioned somewhere. But it's not.

D&C 59:6 says: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it."

That last clause is used to justify the prohibition against abortion, so perhaps it could also be used for suicide? But when we come down to it, these prohibitions pertain to behavior vis-a-vis others, not ourselves. Could one use "thou shalt not steal" as justification for forbidding the destruction of one's own property? One is, after all, stealing from oneself, right? 

 

Some Protestant faiths regard it as a sin and call it self-murder and regard it as unpardonable. The Catholics do also call it sin and against the command "Thou shalt not kill", although they do provide a chance for forgiveness depending on the circumstances. 

[rongo]

17 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I attended a funeral on Saturday for a young person who had committed suicide. 

I think it's great that Elder Holland addressed the issue head on. The message has to be that suicide isn't the answer, whether details of the afterlife are known or not.

Yes, that is what the message has to be. No one wants to "twist the knife" for grieving and scared families, but I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction out of consideration (i.e., that they will be fine and on the same footing as those who don't commit suicide). There is just as little known about that as there is about the alternative (they will be damned forever). 

Like murder, abortion, out-of-wedlock births, etc. suicide interferes with the plan of salvation ideal. The actual mental state of mind, degree of accountability, etc. will be factored in in judgment, but I think it's safe to say that not all suicides are un-accountable. The number of social factors feeding into suicide trends seems to be increasing.

I found Malcolm Gladwell's discussion of suicide contagion in his book The Tipping Point to be fascinating. Here is a very brief discussion in a blog about that part of the book (starting with the Micronesia suicide epidemic):

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/suicide-contagious/

All of the factors wreaking havoc with young people today are "memes" (Richard Dawkins definition) --- they are socially contagious. I think the proliferation of mental health maladies is among these, and frighteningly, LDS families seem in increasingly more cases unable to protect their children from these. Doctrine (understood and lived), priesthood power, and Church culture (family and ward) **should** prepare and protect against it, but in many cases, falls short.  

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

Yes, that is what the message has to be. No one wants to "twist the knife" for grieving and scared families, but I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction out of consideration (i.e., that they will be fine and on the same footing as those who don't commit suicide). There is just as little known about that as there is about the alternative (they will be damned forever). 

Like murder, abortion, out-of-wedlock births, etc. suicide interferes with the plan of salvation ideal. The actual mental state of mind, degree of accountability, etc. will be factored in in judgment, but I think it's safe to say that not all suicides are un-accountable. The number of social factors feeding into suicide trends seems to be increasing.

I found Malcolm Gladwell's discussion of suicide contagion in his book The Tipping Point to be fascinating. Here is a very brief discussion in a blog about that part of the book (starting with the Micronesia suicide epidemic):

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/suicide-contagious/

All of the factors wreaking havoc with young people today are "memes" (Richard Dawkins definition) --- they are socially contagious. I think the proliferation of mental health maladies is among these, and frighteningly, LDS families seem in increasingly more cases unable to protect their children from these. Doctrine (understood and lived), priesthood power, and Church culture (family and ward) **should** prepare and protect against it, but in many cases, falls short.  

It is my firm belief that a loving God will embrace his children who have suffered and are in pain, regardless of how they die. That's all I need to know.

[Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Some Protestant faiths regard it as a sin and call it self-murder and regard it as unpardonable. The Catholics do also call it sin and against the command "Thou shalt not kill", although they do provide a chance for forgiveness depending on the circumstances. 

Yes, I know. And suicides weren't permitted to be buried in consecrated ground -- for those branches of Christianity that had such ground.

[strappinglad]

What shall be done with all the Japanese and , for that matter, Romans, for whom suicide was not only an acceptable solution to disgrace , but an expected one? Moral Relativism again ? 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I'd be interested in knowing how God tries to prevent suicide from happening. What does he do to try to stop it? Some people never say there is a problem and God is the only one who knows and so he is the only person who could help. If he actually has a plan beyond the plan of salvation for each of his children here, something they are to do in mortality then what becomes of these plans when they die? every year thousands of people commit suicide so I wonder what happens now with what they were supposed to do in mortality

 

When I was in my deepest darkest depression he helped me by giving me opportunities to help others.  When I helped others it gave me some light.  Stupid little things like helping my roommate with a math problem had me put it off another day.  When It finally got to be the day I was putting everything in place.  Just had it about ready when the Spirit spoke to me, "what do you think you are doing?" That was when I got help.

Years later, I lay there thinking I should just do it.  Then I remembered back to that first time and I remembered that things got better.  They could get better this time.  And they did. 

Now this isn't to say that God cared about me more, because he doesn't.  I don't think he tried to prevent my suicide and ignores when everyone else does.   I don't think he sent a message that helped e stop, but fails to send messages that stop other people.  But I do know what it is like to be at the point of suicide and to keep going and I now know what it is like to be there for other people when they are ready as well.  I am no way an expert.  But my little experience with it all shows me that he tries more than we may know.  

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Curious why you think it isn't helpful? Suicide seems to be an escape, so wouldn't it be the obvious thing to point out that it really isn't an escape?

It is best if one obtains a high school diploma, or a four-year degree. Would it not be helpful to warn the would-be drop-out that quitting school is a bad idea, for various reasons? Of course, suicide is not fully comparable, since dropping out can be corrected later, yet suicide cannot. Thus it seems that counselling that suicide isn't the answer is a far more important message than counselling not to drop out of school.

For many it isn't about escape.  It wasn't for me.  I loved that elder Holland said, "You are loved and valued and needed. We need you!"  because I felt I was a burden on others.  That I caused them more pain.  I didn't recognize that I was needed.  For others it may be an escape, but not for all of us.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Here's my understanding in a nutshell:

- Agency requires choice.  It is possible to be so mentally ill that you are not in control of your actions.  Therefore, some suicides are intentional acts, that carry a burden of sin with them, and some are not.

- So, intentional acts of suicide, like any other sin, will impact us in the afterlife, to whatever extent that it will.  Folks who kill themselves when not in control of their own actions, will not suffer a penalty, because they didn't 'commit' suicide - because agency requires choice - and by definition, if you are not in control of your own actions, you don't have a choice.

- We humans might think we have the tools necessary to righteously judge someone's state of mind at the time they chose suicide, and we humans are wrong to think that.  Therefore, anyone who has lived through a loved one's suicide, can steadfastly disregard anyone's opinion or claim that they know where the dead person is, or how things will work out.  Humans don't get to judge the weight of the action - we simply aren't equipped.  They tell us the Person who is equipped with those tools required to righteously judge, is a loving Judge, who sees the full contents of our hearts and minds, and also has paid a steep price for us, for when we do horrible things.  In short, no human being can rob us of the hope that our departed loved one is happily and righteously in heaven, resting from their earthly troubles.

- Elder Holland is correct - suicide isn't the answer.  For all us humans who have the ability to choose in the matter, especially to our kids, let's make sure we all understand that suicide isn't the answer.  (Again, if you're not in control of your own actions, the phrase 'suicide isn't the answer' is meaningless, because, again, you're not capable of forming and implementing answers.)

Edited April 11, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[JAHS]

18 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

What shall be done with all the Japanese and , for that matter, Romans, for whom suicide was not only an acceptable solution to disgrace , but an expected one? Moral Relativism again ? 

Like I mentioned earlier, as Elder Ballard said "the traditions of our fathers" will be taken into consideration.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

. I got a snarky answer.

Maybe Rod will clarify, but there is one long time member on the board who has talked of having a NDE that was very unpleasant.  I can’t remember who though or if they mentioned what the circumstances were, it may have been Rod.  That is where my mind went when I read his answer.

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

When I was in my deepest darkest depression he helped me by giving me opportunities to help others.  When I helped others it gave me some light.  Stupid little things like helping my roommate with a math problem had me put it off another day.  When It finally got to be the day I was putting everything in place.  Just had it about ready when the Spirit spoke to me, "what do you think you are doing?" That was when I got help.

Years later, I lay there thinking I should just do it.  Then I remembered back to that first time and I remembered that things got better.  They could get better this time.  And they did. 

Now this isn't to say that God cared about me more, because he doesn't.  I don't think he tried to prevent my suicide and ignores when everyone else does.   I don't think he sent a message that helped e stop, but fails to send messages that stop other people.  But I do know what it is like to be at the point of suicide and to keep going and I now know what it is like to be there for other people when they are ready as well.  I am no way an expert.  But my little experience with it all shows me that he tries more than we may know.  

 

I want to tell so many people this, what you've said. If someone can just hold on one more day, to see how they feel. I'm often in a point in my life that I want to end it, but then I'm so glad I didn't because it can or will get better. 

I am currently trying to figure out a good way out if I'm diagnosed with Alzheimer's though. My mother got it really young and so I watched what happened to her and it really made me never want to live with it. She had so much grace, but me, not sure what I'll do or say. She's my hero, but it was so unfair. 

Glad you're here Rain. I know that you reached out to me once if I'm remembering right, and you even shared your home or cell number! What a sweet, sweet gesture. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The message has to be that suicide isn't the answer, whether details of the afterlife are known or not.

Too often when deeply depressed, it gets easy to believe that others who love you don’t need you and would be better off without having to deal with your pain.  Firsthand experience plus listening to others.
 

It’s not true, but then suicide is rarely a rational and informed choice (in our culture at least).

Edited April 12, 2022 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

40 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

What shall be done with all the Japanese and , for that matter, Romans, for whom suicide was not only an acceptable solution to disgrace , but an expected one? Moral Relativism again ? 

Ah yes, Jacob, the great moral relativist of his time:

Quote

Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.

 

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I want to tell so many people this, what you've said. If someone can just hold on one more day, to see how they feel. I'm often in a point in my life that I want to end it, but then I'm so glad I didn't because it can or will get better. 

I am currently trying to figure out a good way out if I'm diagnosed with Alzheimer's though. My mother got it really young and so I watched what happened to her and it really made me never want to live with it. She had so much grace, but me, not sure what I'll do or say. She's my hero, but it was so unfair. 

Glad you're here Rain. I know that you reached out to me once if I'm remembering right, and you even shared your home or cell number! What a sweet, sweet gesture. 

💕

[Stargazer]

37 minutes ago, Rain said:

For many it isn't about escape.  It wasn't for me.  I loved that elder Holland said, "You are loved and valued and needed. We need you!"  because I felt I was a burden on others.  That I caused them more pain.  I didn't recognize that I was needed.  For others it may be an escape, but not for all of us.

May I gently contradict you on this? Even in the case of not wanting to be a burden, it's still escape. Just a different "take" on it. That the burden is perceived to be is on others, still engenders a desire for escape from the burden of being a burden.  <- convoluted a bit, yes.

Whether you're escaping for your own, or for another's pain, it is still an escape. I can perceive already what goes on when one feels one is a burden and one does not wish to be one. I'm 70 1/2, and I am feeling it in advance. I'm starting to feel the aches and pains of getting old more fully. Eventually I expect to be dependent again upon others, to be a burden on them. It was one of the very best things in my life when I finally got out of the house as a young man and started living on my own, paying my own way, dependent upon nobody, pulling my own weight, and when I married and the children started arriving, contributing in a meaningful way. I bore the burden, as the man of the house, and even when my wife was working, in our case at least she provided extras, but I provided the basis. I'll still have my retirement income, which is adequate, but I expect I'm going to be physically dependent on others, losing a portion of my freedom, which isn't so bad (because I'll be largely incapable of exercising freedom -- wheelchair? blind? something else?), but the worst of it will be having to rely upon others, to impose upon them the burden of taking care of me. I'd just about prefer to die, to hope that the Lord would take me before it comes to that. So there will still be some temptation to short-circuit the process, though I will studiously ignore it!

I was hoping that the Lord would grant me that escape back in 2015 after my wife passed away, but He clearly had other things for me to do.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

On another form I visit I read of someone’s mother that ran out of the room in despair at the words. She lost another child to suicide and clung to the idea that at least they were at peace now. Just curious how others saw it. 

I can see that as being very troubling to a parent to hear and part of me thinks it would be better left unsaid, but I think there are likely some who hear it and decide they should get help and perhaps that means there will be families not having to endure the pain she feels.  And that makes what he said valuable.  

We are taught that the next life is not a disconnect with this one, that we don’t ‘wake up’ as if from a bad dream, but rather continue in the same spirit.  So yes, they are not at peace immediately after death, I believe, even if there were biological causes of depression imo because we have established habits of thought and if we kill ourselves, that means we had some deeply entrenched dark ways of thinking.  Those habits will need to be broken.  My guess for those who are impaired due to no fault of their own, it will happen relatively quickly as we are not only free of our damaged bodies, but we are surrounded by those who are likely very good at expressing love and teaching healthier ways of thinking, the highest quality of therapists there are.

If I knew that mother, I would have tried to comfort her by saying peace might not have been his immediately, but it would come to him as quickly as God could convey it without suppressing who her son was at his core and once it came, once her son could accept Christ’s love and atonement fully, it would be as if the pain had ever been, save for what knowledge and awareness would be a benefit for him in the future.

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

I guess it's possible that after you die you might regret having committed suicide, but God is very merciful for people in that situation.

Elder M. Russell Ballard said:
“Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

“When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth” (“Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not,” Ensign, Oct. 1987, 8).

I think it will be less about him judging us (in the sense of justice)…save to determine the best treatment for healing us…and more about judging ourselves.  God’s judgment in my opinion is simply a total awareness or knowledge of who we are, including how and why we got to be where we are.  And his judgment will be about how we get back to where we should/want to be.  

I think Stargazer was on target when he said we would be carrying the burden of knowing we caused others deep pain, sometimes a pain that twists their life and thus contributes to them losing their way (because it is never one thing that triggers suicide) and desiring to cease to exist.  What a horror that would be if you had killed yourself because you thought they could then be happy.  I think it would take some time and effort to forgive ourselves of that…especially if we were able to watch them in their pain.  To be able to free ourselves of that would require, I am guessing, turning ourselves completely over to God and opening ourselves up fully to his healing love…which may be difficult at first for those of us who couldn’t love themselves enough to stop making the mistake of suicide in the first place.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Calm

[gopher]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Are you sure it was snarky?  Rodheadlee has had an interesting life from what I can tell.  I'm not sure his answer was snarky.

He has told his story several times on this board so I don't believe he was being snarky.  He's one of the most interesting characters here.  I'm sure he'll return to clarify.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Suicide doesn't relieve pain, it just tosses it over the wall where it lands on the people who care about you and smashes them flat.

I know it sounds like some formulaic pop-psych meaningless phrase that sounds good, but it's the truth.  When I heard Elder Holland say that, it was my first thought.  Horrible guilt, shame, PTSD, depression, there are a host of things that will occasionally end up visiting the friends and loved ones of folks who kill themselves.  

Shout out to all the ppl who have had a loved one commit suicide.  Any of you are welcome to tell me I'm off base, if you see things differently.

While this sentiment may avert some suicides I am not convinced it is healthy. I can’t end my suffering because ending my suffering will add suffering to others is not the most optimistic message and is more likely to add to the misery of the suicidal and make them feel more trapped.

I thought the message on suicide was timely. My stake has had one successful teenage suicide every full month this year so far including one in my ward. Then it got even more important as the issue just showed up again on a much closer level.

I would like a break now.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What shall be done with all the Japanese and , for that matter, Romans, for whom suicide was not only an acceptable solution to disgrace , but an expected one? Moral Relativism again ? 

In Rome it was not just for disgrace. Also allowable in cases of incredibly bad misfortune and expected in cases of impending elderly infirmity (senility and other impending conditions that would make you a burden). If I remember correctly the early Christians were weirdos for caring for the infirm elderly instead.

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

and is more likely to add to the misery of the suicidal and make them feel more trapped.

I can see that as a potential problem if they are already there.  But if they are aware they are heading there, perhaps it might help push them to get help.

My first experience with suicidal ideation was due to a drug reaction.  I laid in bed (this was way before being in bed became my lifestyle) without responding to my husband except for one word here and there for three days, vividly visualizing various ways (for once, the alliteration is unintentional).  I don’t know if I would have gone through with it otherwise, but what I couldn’t get past at the time was the image of my three year old son finding me and what that would do to him (plus I flashbacked to the Holmes Rahe stress scale in my psyche class).  And every other time, that knowledge my children were depending on me and I was essentially irreplaceable in terms of emotional health got me to the next day, out of bed, taking a shower, etc.  The latest time it seemed my daughter, though having issues, was able to care for herself and so finally didn’t need me.  When I told her and my husband I was thinking this way (I felt they had a right to know since my state of mind affects them), she made it very clear I was clueless. It helped break the cycle of obsessive thinking I was locked in.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

I don't think suicide relieves pain.  Does that mean that I think people who enter the afterlife via that means still feel the pain they feel here?  I hope not, and I don't believe so: I think God is merciful, especially to those who are feeling enough pain that they see suicide as a viable solution.  I think what Elder Holland was alluding to is that to the extent suicide relieves pain for the person who commits it, it simply transfers that pain to those whom the person leaves behind on this side of the veil.  Good call, @HappyJackWagonSincere condolences on the loss of your young friend.  If you hadn't posted Elder Ballard's talk, I would have. (You know, for a Jack Wagon, you're pretty smart!  )

[2BizE]

It’s nice to have an apostle speak on this as he is obviously experienced with knowing all the details of what happens after death.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Also allowable in cases of incredibly bad misfortune and expected in cases of impending elderly infirmity (senility and other impending conditions that would make you a burden).

I haven’t studied this.  Do we know how others are affected in cultures where there are strong motivators such as the above?  Is there significant emotional trauma for the survivors when it is expected by the culture?  Or would there be more disturbance if someone refused?

If one does not believe it sinful and there is limited trauma for loved ones, it seems like it could be a reasonable idea, especially when resources used for the elderly were needed by others to survive.

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

May I gently contradict you on this? Even in the case of not wanting to be a burden, it's still escape.

I don’t think you can know how others process their own experience well enough to define it for them.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

I only considered suicide seriously once. I wasn’t anywhere near making a decision but it did lead me to think about how to do it. I decided if I was going to do it I would be as courteous as possible to whoever had to deal with the remains so I ended up in an article or blog post written by a guy who did death cleanups. It started with “don’t commit suicide” and repeated that a lot but then finally went to: “Okay if that didn’t work here is how to do it and make my job easier”.

It was so darkly humorous and morbidly funny that I couldn’t stop laughing.

I am with Norm. People who don’t understand why people commit suicide are weird to me.

Warning: Profanity and humor that may offend but people who have been suicidal anecdotally find it therapeutic and hilarious.