Amulek Posted January 29, 2020 Posted January 29, 2020 54 minutes ago, Boanerges said: The men or women only ones and make Brightly Beams Our Father's Mercy four part. I would be fine if they ditched that one as well. I know it's totally immature on my part, but I just can't make it through the chorus of that song with a straight face. No matter how hard I try to remind myself that it's really about ships and sailors (which I know it is), I just can't break free of the thought of it alternately being an oblique reference to...um, things relating to fertility. Sorry, I honestly can't help it. So, while everyone else is just singing along happily, I'm always leaned forward with my head down, trying to keep myself from going too red in the face.
Ahab Posted January 29, 2020 Posted January 29, 2020 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Can’t we all just recognize that most words vary in meaning according to context? Uh, yeah. I do that quite frequently if you haven't noticed already. But that isn't our only option. We can also rephrase things and use other words that don't seem to gel or get the point across by using other similar words to try to make a point. I am a big fan of synonyms, and I know how and am not afraid to use a Thesaurus.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 29, 2020 Author Posted January 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Uh, yeah. I do that quite frequently if you haven't noticed already. But that isn't our only option. We can also rephrase things and use other words that don't seem to gel or get the point across by using other similar words to try to make a point. I am a big fan of synonyms, and I know how and am not afraid to use a Thesaurus. How would I be able to notice that you do it quite frequently (recognize that words vary in meaning according to context)? And in many cases synonyms are not perfectly interchangeable. “Molest” and “assault,” for instance, assuming a non-sexual meaning for each.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 29, 2020 Author Posted January 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Amulek said: I would be fine if they ditched that one as well. I know it's totally immature on my part, but I just can't make it through the chorus of that song with a straight face. No matter how hard I try to remind myself that it's really about ships and sailors (which I know it is), I just can't break free of the thought of it alternately being an oblique reference to...um, things relating to fertility. I don’t see it. And I don’t want it explained to me. 1
Ahab Posted January 29, 2020 Posted January 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: How would I be able to notice that you do it quite frequently (recognize that words vary in meaning according to context)? Sometimes people can tell when other people understand something so I thought maybe you might have noticed that I have understood other people even when they use different words than I use to refer to something. 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: And in many cases synonyms are not perfectly interchangeable. “Molest” and “assault,” for instance, assuming a non-sexual meaning for each. Close enough. Words are not perfect things. They're only tools for trying to get a message across. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. The gist or general idea is usually what people are after.when trying to understand someone.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Ahab said: Sometimes people can tell when other people understand something so I thought maybe you might have noticed that I have understood other people even when they use different words than I use to refer to something. Close enough. Words are not perfect things. They're only tools for trying to get a message across. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. The gist or general idea is usually what people are after.when trying to understand someone. Be that as it may, communication is an art, and precision of expression is one characteristic of good communication. Ergo, if one is going to substitute one word or term for another, the words ought to be nearly identical, not merely approximate, in meaning. Edited January 30, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
Ahab Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Be that as it may, communication is an art, and precision of expression is one characteristic of good communication. Ergo, if one is going to substitute one word or term for another, they ought to be nearly identical, not merely approximate, in meaning. You're not ever going to be very funny if you keep thinking that way. And as I have already tried to explain to you, in English, what most people want is the gist of the idea you are trying to share with them. Not everyone wants the very same idea you are trying to give them.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 8 hours ago, pogi said: Which kind of begs the question, why do we even have a conductor if all they do is follow the organist? ... No, it doesn't. It may prompt a question, but it doesn't "beg" it. https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Begging-the-Question.html. You're welcome. Glad I could help. Sincerely yours, Scott Lloyd Jr. aka Kenngo1969 2
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ahab said: And as I have already tried to explain to you, in English, what most people want is the gist of the idea you are trying to share with them. Not everyone wants the very same idea you are trying to give them. That's not communication and causes wars and, uh, political misunderstandings. What is a "quid pro quo" exactly? And what even is a "same idea"? How could a third party judge between two ideas to see if they are the "same"? All we have is YOUR understanding vs MY understanding. There's no microscope to examine two ideas to see if they are the same. If you just want the gist of something you had better not comment on it. Keep it simple minded if your answers are going to be simple minded. You have to be on the same level as the person with whom you are communicating. And keeping it on a positive note, I like your new avatar, it is considerably better looking than your old one. Edited January 30, 2020 by mfbukowski 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: No, it doesn't. It may prompt a question, but it doesn't "beg" it. https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Begging-the-Question.html. You're welcome. Glad I could help. Sincerely yours, Scott Lloyd Jr. aka Kenngo1969 Thanks. I’ve been getting kind of battle weary on that of late. I appreciate the reenforcement. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: No, it doesn't. It may prompt a question, but it doesn't "beg" it. https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Begging-the-Question.html. You're welcome. Glad I could help. Sincerely yours, Scott Lloyd Jr. aka Kenngo1969 Moreover, even if you embrace the newer, looser meaning of the expression, the one borne of ignorance regarding its etymology, it still sounds odd to say “<kind of> begs the question.” I mean, if you’re earnest enough about having something to “beg” for it, there’s no “kind of” about it. You’re all in, right? Edited January 30, 2020 by Scott Lloyd 1
pogi Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 50 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: No, it doesn't. It may prompt a question, but it doesn't "beg" it. https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Begging-the-Question.html. You're welcome. Glad I could help. Sincerely yours, Scott Lloyd Jr. aka Kenngo1969 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, pogi said: You had that comic strip all set to use against me, didn’t you? It must have been galling to you when I said nothing about it after you deliberately misused the phrase today. Edited January 30, 2020 by Scott Lloyd 1
CA Steve Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 I believe this thread begs the question of whether or not the hymnal even needs to be revised but it does raise the question of why some hymns are more acceptable that others. 1
pogi Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You had that comic strip all set to use against me, didn’t you? It must have been galling to you when I said nothing about it after you deliberately misused the phrase today. Ha, ha that would be pretty conniving! I am too simple a man to scheme such things. It just seemed to waft into my lap as if from heaven. Isn’t the internet awesome that way? I didn’t even know that there are people out there who take issue with it’s use ‘till now. I don’t concede that the phrase was misused though. I tend to favor descriptive rather than prescriptive grammar. Edited January 30, 2020 by pogi
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, pogi said: Ha, ha that would be pretty conniving! I am too simple a man to scheme such things. It just seemed to waft into my lap as if from heaven. Isn’t the internet awesome that way? I don’t concede that the phrase was misused. I don’t believe you about being “too simple a man.” I sensed you were trying to get my goat, so I didn’t mention it. My intuition has been vindicated, and you at last got to deploy your comic strip. I’d call that a victory on both sides. And if you don’t concede it’s a misuse, how about a misappropriation? Constant repetition of that behavior reduces the value of the expression for its proper and original application. If you mean to say something <raises> the question, why not express it that way? Or if you desire to imbue it with greater emphasis, you might say something like, “That raises a question that begs to be answered.” 1
pogi Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t believe you about being “too simple a man.” I sensed you were trying to get my goat, so I didn’t mention it. My intuition has been vindicated, and you at last got to deploy your comic strip. I’d call that a victory on both sides. You’re joking, right? What does this have to do with you? You are coming off as very paranoid making up this conspiracy against you. First, I wasn’t even in conversation with you when I said it. Second, how in the world was I supposed to know that you would even take issue with it? Have we had this conversation before or something? Third, why would I want to trap you like that? I don’t hold any grudges against you for anything, Scott. Fourth, I don’t read comics and don’t have any in my arsenal. I think it is pretty messed up that you want to defame me on a hunch, but whatever! I am not going to engage you on the issue of the proper use of that phrase. I didn’t know you were so sensitive about it. Edited January 30, 2020 by pogi 2
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) On 1/29/2020 at 9:45 PM, pogi said: You’re joking, right? What does this have to do with you? You are coming off as very paranoid making up this conspiracy against you. First, I wasn’t even in conversation with you when I said it. Second, how in the world was I supposed to know that you would even take issue with it? Have we had this conversation before or something? Third, why would I want to trap you like that? I don’t hold any grudges against you for anything, Scott. Fourth, I don’t read comics. I think it is pretty messed up that you want to defame me on a hunch, but whatever! I am not going to engage you on the issue of the proper use of that phrase. I didn’t know you were so sensitive about it. Long time contributors to this message board know that for years I’ve been raising the matter of loose usage of “beg the question.” I used to give a link to a website that offered mugs and T shirts that say “‘begs the question’ does not mean ‘raises the question.’” My interest (some might say obsession) has become something of an ongoing, good-natured joke around these parts (see Kenngo’s post). You’ve been on here a while, so I assumed you were in on it too. But if you say otherwise, I’ll accept your word and beg your pardon (but not the question). Edited January 31, 2020 by Scott Lloyd 2
pogi Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Long time contributors to this message board know that for years I’ve been raising the matter of loose usage of “beg the question.” I used to give a link to a website that offered mugs and T shirts that say “‘beg the question’ does not mean ‘raises the question.’” My interest (some might say obsession) has become something of an ongoing, good-natured joke around these parts (see Kenngo’s post). You’ve been on here a while, so I assumed you were in on it too. But if you say otherwise, I’ll accept your word and beg your pardon. I see. This all makes so much more sense now! If I read any of those threads, I honestly don’t remember it. Water under the bridge. Now there’s been enough “begging” going on for one night! 1
MorningStar Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: How would I be able to notice that you do it quite frequently (recognize that words vary in meaning according to context)? And in many cases synonyms are not perfectly interchangeable. “Molest” and “assault,” for instance, assuming a non-sexual meaning for each. We could just change the entire line to something more pleasant. The word "molest" brings an image I don't want to think about. "From morn until eve." Let's also get rid of True to the Faith. It sounds like a high school band song played at a football game and I hate it. I also can't stand the tune to "As Zion's Youth in Latter Days". The tune to "I Believe in Christ" is boring and I hate it. We need a new tune and it needs to be shortened by a lot. The first 5 notes are the same note. How much more boring could it get? I was asked to sing it at a funeral and I was so grateful when the family changed their minds. Because I was thinking, "By the time I'm done, people will wish it were their funeral." 2
Tacenda Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 8 minutes ago, MorningStar said: We could just change the entire line to something more pleasant. The word "molest" brings an image I don't want to think about. "From morn until eve." Let's also get rid of True to the Faith. It sounds like a high school band song played at a football game and I hate it. I also can't stand the tune to "As Zion's Youth in Latter Days". The tune to "I Believe in Christ" is boring and I hate it. We need a new tune and it needs to be shortened by a lot. The first 5 notes are the same note. How much more boring could it get? I was asked to sing it at a funeral and I was so grateful when the family changed their minds. Because I was thinking, "By the time I'm done, people will wish it were their funeral." What do you think about the song: "I Stand All Amazed"? I'm partial because my mom loved that song and it was sung at her funeral.
Calm Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Long time contributors to this message board know that for years It is remarkable to me how sometimes longtime posters don't remember someone is nonLDS or a woman or not an American or some other detail until something comes up that I should have remembered. I suspect most of us think other posters are paying a lot more attention to the details of our comments when often they are likely not even looking at the names of who says what if they aren't that interested. Quote ongoing, good-natured joke Doesn't appear all that good natured when you went to the extreme of accusing pogi of lying about the comic. The comic itself has been posted at least a few times before on the board, probably by Nehor. When I googled "begging the question", it was one of a number that came up. I prefer this one. Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm 2
Thinking Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 On 1/27/2020 at 1:46 PM, Scott Lloyd said: I submit herewith my nomination for one such elimination. It is “Because I Have Been Given Much,” No. 219. The message in this hymn transcends belief systems. I would think that the message is more important than ornerous copyright restrictions.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, MorningStar said: We could just change the entire line to something more pleasant. The word "molest" brings an image I don't want to think about. "From morn until eve." Let's also get rid of True to the Faith. It sounds like a high school band song played at a football game and I hate it. I also can't stand the tune to "As Zion's Youth in Latter Days". The tune to "I Believe in Christ" is boring and I hate it. We need a new tune and it needs to be shortened by a lot. The first 5 notes are the same note. How much more boring could it get? I was asked to sing it at a funeral and I was so grateful when the family changed their minds. Because I was thinking, "By the time I'm done, people will wish it were their funeral." Other than to note that those hymns you’ve mentioned are among my favorites, I don’t have too much to say in response. I’ll just opine that a musical passage with a single note repeated several times is not necessarily boring if the chords change during the course of that passage — as they do with “I Believe in Christ.” “Because I Have Been Given Much” also opens with a note repeated five times. I wonder if you find that boring as well (though the former extends over nearly two measures and the latter only one, followed by five more identical notes). But it won’t do to argue aesthetics. It does not go anywhere, as preferences are so subjective. P. S. “Molest,” in its broader sense, means to annoy or harass — precisely what the Latter-day Saints were subjected to in the early days of the Church. The hymn looks forward to “the day of salvation,” “the hour of redemption,” when they would receive “all that was promised” and be free from oppression 24/7, “from morn until ev’n.” What a blessed message of hope that must have been for a people besieged with continual violence, persecution, arson, theft, murder, dispossession of lands and property, etc. In s sense, we, their literal and/or spiritual descendants, are living in “the day of salvation” to which they looked forward. And there are even greater blessings to come thanks to the legacy they bequeathed to us and that we pass on. Edited January 30, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
Recommended Posts