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My Vote for Hymn to Exclude From the Next Hymnal


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15 hours ago, topcougar said:

I have at times sung the melody an octave lower - that works. 

Not in my view. As I've indicated a number of times here already, with male voices it puts the melody in too low of a range to sound good with most of our hymns. It works better for women (if they can sing that low), because it puts their pitch in a tenor range, which is fine.

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19 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Maybe the word "disturb"? Nowadays if I tell a cop someone molested me, that will only be taken as one thing. Gay used to just mean happy, but in the song "I Feel Pretty", the lyrics have been changed to "I feel pretty and witty and bright and I pity any girl who isn't me tonight". When I teach piano, kids are shocked at "Don we now our gay apparel" because it's never used has happy now. So I just tell them it's all about letting a well-dressed gay man choose our outfits. (I'm kidding, everyone.) 
 

As is nearly always the case, context makes a great deal of difference. I don't see a problem with usage of the word "molest” in a hymn referring in a historic sense to the oppression of our people. But I would be fine if "oppress" were used in its place.

I do lament it and think our language is rendered the poorer if and when a particular word that historically has carried various connotations driven by context is appropriated to the extent that only one definition is popularly recognized -- as with "gay."

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, I thought of that later. It (oppress) works better than any of the other synonyms for "molest" that have been suggested here.

Meaning is almost the same and vowels are the same with ‘ss’ strong enough to replace the “st” for a consistent sound.  You should submit the suggestion (do they have feedback pages in the hymnal section online)?

Edited by Calm
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24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Meaning is almost the same and vowels are the same with ‘ss’ strong enough to replace the “st” for a consistent sound.  You should submit the suggestion (do they have feedback pages in the hymnal section online)?

I won't be submitting it. I've said I don't see a problem and that  I'm fine with leaving it as is. I'm only saying that, if a change is to ensue, "oppress" seems to be the best option.

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4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not in my view. As I've indicated a number of times here already, with male voices it puts the melody in too low of a range to sound good with most of our hymns. It works better for women (if they can sing that low), because it puts their pitch in a tenor range, which is fine.

There are several hymns,can’t recall, that are set ridiculously too high in range for anyone other than a primary child.  

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19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

There are several hymns,can’t recall, that are set ridiculously too high in range for anyone other than a primary child.  

That may well be true. I wouldn’t know, because with virtually all, the lead line is too high for my baritone/bass range. 

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6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, I thought of that later. It (oppress) works better than any of the other synonyms for "molest" that have been suggested here.

I think oppress describes the actions against the early Saints better than molest.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

There are several hymns,can’t recall, that are set ridiculously too high in range for anyone other than a primary child.

So, this comment sent me to Google which, in turn, ultimately resulted in my stumbling upon this (very cool) write-up: http://markmitchell-music.com/music/documents/HymnStats.pdf

One of the more enjoyable, informational things I've read recently. Definitely worth checking out, especially for those who are musically inclined (e.g., @Bernard Gui, @Scott Lloyd, etc.).

 

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6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think oppress describes the actions against the early Saints better than molest.

Exactly. I wonder when it's too late to make changes? Hopefully someone else caught the molest thing. As teenagers, my sister and I snickered every time we sang it. 

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7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think oppress describes the actions against the early Saints better than molest.

You make a fair point, although “molest” is more general in its connotation than “oppress.” Saying “none will molest them” is tantamount to saying “none will bother them.” “Oppress” more aptly applies to the severity of the most outrageous offenses perpetrated against them, but it is not wrong to use “molest” (bother) in this context. “Molest” takes in a whole train of offenses from relatively minor harassment or derision to the most egregious oppression. It could unquestionably be said that the Saints endured the entire spectrum, not just the most extreme portion. 

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7 hours ago, Amulek said:

So, this comment sent me to Google which, in turn, ultimately resulted in my stumbling upon this (very cool) write-up: http://markmitchell-music.com/music/documents/HymnStats.pdf

One of the more enjoyable, informational things I've read recently. Definitely worth checking out, especially for those who are musically inclined (e.g., @Bernard Gui, @Scott Lloyd, etc.).

 

Interesting to note that notwithstanding a plethora of complaints in this thread, “I Believe in Christ” is nowhere near being the longest in the book. It’s not even in the top 10. And of those 10, nine are sung quite frequently. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Interesting to note that notwithstanding a plethora of complaints in this thread, “I Believe in Christ is nowhere near being the longest in the book. It’s not even in the top 10. And of those 10, nine are sung quite frequently. 

I think it just seems so long because it's so slow.

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11 hours ago, Amulek said:

So, this comment sent me to Google which, in turn, ultimately resulted in my stumbling upon this (very cool) write-up: http://markmitchell-music.com/music/documents/HymnStats.pdf

One of the more enjoyable, informational things I've read recently. Definitely worth checking out, especially for those who are musically inclined (e.g., @Bernard Gui, @Scott Lloyd, etc.).

 

Very, very interesting! That looks like something I would do, but he takes it to the extreme! A whole lotta figurine' going' on there.

The range of extreme high and low is important in how comfortable one is when singing, but one thing he didn't discuss was tessitura, which involves the physical strain put on the voice. Maybe maybe I just missed it in the article. 

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Tessitura, (Italian: “texture”), in music, the general range of pitches found in a melody or vocal part. It differs from the compass of a piece to the extent that it does not take into account the extremes of the piece’s range but is concerned with the way in which the vocal line is arranged or situated. The tessitura of a piece, therefore, is not determined by a few isolated notes of extraordinarily high or low pitch but rather by which part of the range is most consistently used; for example, the role of Siegfried in Wagner’s Ring operas extends from c♯ to c″, but its tessitura would be considered extremely high (and consequently very demanding) because the tenor is frequently required to sing long phrases in the range c′ to a′. Added to the strain of singing in such a high tessitura is the full volume and dramatic intensity often required for such parts.  

https://www.britannica.com/art/tessitura

Singing for long periods at the top or bottom of one's range can fatigue the voice and make it uncomfortable to sing.

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There is a reason why 4/4 is called “common time” (sometimes written as a C instead of the numerals in the time signature). Fully 56 percent of the hymns are in 4/4. I noticed something interesting, though. Of the 28 sacrament hymns, 18 (64 percent) are in 3/4. This is more than double the overall rate for 3/4. Perhaps 3/4 feels more reverent, better suited to contemplative hymns.

3 is the number of the Holy Trinity, so triple meter was most often used in sacred music. At least that's what I read in my Medieval/Renaissance music history classes. 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Interesting to note that notwithstanding a plethora of complaints in this thread, “I Believe in Christ” is nowhere near being the longest in the book. It’s not even in the top 10. And of those 10, nine are sung quite frequently. 

 

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it just seems so long because it's so slow.

The metronome range is 88-104 bpm, not an unusually slow tempo and precisely the same as “For the Strength of the Hills,” which the sheet music says is to be sung “energetically.”

Compare also “Redeemer of Israel” (84-100) and “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet” (76-92). 

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

The range of extreme high and low is important in how comfortable one is when singing, but one thing he didn't discuss was tessitura, which involves the physical strain put on the voice. Maybe maybe I just missed it in the article. 

Singing for long periods at the top or bottom of one's range can fatigue the voice and make it uncomortable to sing.

I don't remember seeing it in detail in the paper, but in the blog post he does allude to it (though without using the expression) - 

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But I also was curious about the vocal ranges. One of the challenges of the composer is to combine the artistic sense of melodic and harmonic beauty with some very practical restrictions. If your beautiful melody goes up to a high G, most people will either drop out or make a horrible off-tune screeching sound. If it goes down to middle C or lower, you’d better not want it to be powerful or loud. If your tenors are singing above the staff the whole time, even though it’s not in an extreme range they will soon tire and be in some discomfort (this is obviously not a deal breaker, though: witness 64 On This Day of Joy and Gladness which doesn’t make tenors glad or joyful…) [emphasis added]

 

Edited by Amulek
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3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Interesting to note that notwithstanding a plethora of complaints in this thread, “I Believe in Christ is nowhere near being the longest in the book. It’s not even in the top 10. And of those 10, nine are sung quite frequently. 

I think it is perceived as long because the same phrase is repeated 8 times. Granted, it is the theme of the poem, but as my composition teacher once said about repetition, "Once, twice, but never thrice." It's also sung way under tempo. Even 104 is too slow, IMO. 114-16 work better for me.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think it is perceived as long because the same phrase is repeated 8 times. Granted, it is the theme of the poem, but as my composition teacher once said about repetition, "Once, twice, but never thrice." It's also sung way under tempo. Even 104 is too slow, IMO. 114-16 work better for me.

 

So I take it, then, that you and/or your composition teacher would disapprove of, say, “America the Beautiful,” which has four successive verses each beginning with “Oh beautiful for ...”. Or does that work for you in a way that “I Believe in Christ” somehow lacks?

Interesting thought about it being performed under tempo. I’d like to hear it played/sung faster once or twice to get an idea of how that would be, bearing in mind that, because of the message in the text, it does need to be performed contemplatively or, as the sheet music directs, “earnestly.” 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So I take it, then, that you and/or your composition teacher would disapprove of, say, “America the Beautiful,” which has four successive verses each beginning with “Oh beautiful for ...”. Or does that work for you in a way that “I Believe in Christ” somehow lacks?

Interesting thought about it being performed under tempo. I’d like to hear it played/sung faster once or twice to get an idea of how that would be, bearing in mind that, because of the message in the text, it does need to be performed contemplatively or, as the sheet music directs, “earnestly.” 

Disapprove is not the word I would use. It’s simply a rule of thumb in composition, not an immutable law. The teacher was Robert Cun****, a Tabernacle organist. Eight is twice as many as four, so I would think repeating “Oh beautiful for...” eight times could get tedious. I simply commented that it may be perceived as slow because of the repetition. Just an opinion.

I believe the best tempo for this hymn is more a moderate two (half note beats) than four (fast quarter note beats). That would be around 72. Thinking of it that way makes it seem slow, when it is actually faster.

I like to test my hymn tempo by comparing how the words would sound being sung at an appropriate speaking rate. Reciting the poem slowly doesn’t make it feel more earnest to me.

I generally like a faster tempo even for more somber or contemplative hymns. Besides, I am the organist, so I make the rules and set the tempo. 😁

Edited by Bernard Gui
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15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Disapprove is not the word I would use. It’s simply a rule of thumb in composition, not an immutable law. The teacher was Robert Cun****, a Tabernacle organist. Eight is twice as many as four, so I would think repeating “Oh beautiful for...” eight times could get tedious. I simply commented that it may be perceived as slow because of the repetition. Just an opinion.

I believe the best tempo for this hymn is more a moderate two (half note beats) than four (fast quarter note beats). That would be around 72. Thinking of it that way makes it seem slow, when it is actually faster.

I like to test my hymn tempo by comparing how the words would sound being sung at an appropriate speaking rate. Reciting the poem slowly doesn’t feel more earnest to me.

I generally like faster a tempo even for more somber or contemplative hymns. Besides, I am the organist, so I make the rules and set the tempo. 😁

Coincidentally, Robert Cund-I-c-k and John Longhurst, composer of “I Believe in Christ,” worked together for many years as Tabernacle organists. Brother L. succeeded Brother C as principal organist. I wonder if they ever chatted about the repeated lines. Probably not, as neither was responsible for Elder McConkie’s poem. 
 

A totally unrelated note but a pleasant memory for me is that I interviewed each organist on the occasion of his retirement. Then, in 2018, I interviewed Clay Christiansen when he retired. It was one of the last stories I wrote before my own retirement that year. 

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7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You make a fair point, although “molest” is more general in its connotation than “oppress.” Saying “none will molest them” is tantamount to saying “none will bother them.” “Oppress” more aptly applies to the severity of the most outrageous offenses perpetrated against them, but it is not wrong to use “molest” (bother) in this context. “Molest” takes in a whole train of offenses from relatively minor harassment or derision to the most egregious oppression. It could unquestionably be said that the Saints endured the entire spectrum, not just the most extreme portion. 

Check out these definitions from the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary.... (sorry about the fonts)....

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MOLEST', v.t. [L. molestus, troublesome, molo. See Mill.]

To trouble; to disturb; to render uneasy.

They have molested the church with needless opposition.

Quote

 

 

OPPRESS', v.t. [L. appressus, from opprimo; ob and premo, to press.]

1. To load or burden with unreasonable impositions; to treat with unjust severity, rigor or hardship; as, to oppress a nation with taxes or contributions; to oppress one by compelling him to perform unreasonable service.

2. To overpower; to overburden; as, to be oppressed with grief.

3. to sit or lie heavy on; as, excess of good oppresses the stomach.

 

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23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Coincidentally, Robert Cund-I-c-k and John Longhurst, composer of “I Believe in Christ,” worked together for many years as Tabernacle organists. Brother L. succeeded Brother C as principal organist. I wonder if they ever chatted about the repeated lines. Probably not, as neither was responsible for Elder McConkie’s poem. 

I knew both of them at BYU. There were three walls of multiple music staff white boards in our counterpoint classroom. Dr. Cun**** composed complete four-part  fugues on the boards without resorting to the piano. 

I had an embarrassing experience in a crowded elevator with Dr. Longhurst. Some of us grad students were talking about various faculty members, not realizing he (one of our subjects) was in the back of the elevator. It had to do with what we perceived as a rather somber personality and a play on his name. That’s probably why I was never called as a member of the Church Music Committee. 😮


They may have chatted about repetition once or twice. Who knows? 

Quote

A totally unrelated note but a pleasant memory for me is that I interviewed each organist on the occasion of his retirement. Then, in 2018, I interviewed Clay Christiansen when he retired. It was one of the last stories I wrote before my own retirement that year. 

Those must have been wonderful experiences. I wondered why Clay pronounced his name Chris-tee-an-sen. Do you know my friend Dr. Walter Whipple?

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I knew both of them at BYU. There were three walls of multiple music staff white boards in our counterpoint classroom. Dr. Cun**** composed complete four-part  fugues on the boards without resorting to the piano. 

I had an embarrassing experience in a crowded elevator with Dr. Longhurst. Some of us grad students were talking about various faculty members, not realizing he (one of our subjects) was in the back of the elevator. It had to do with what we perceived as a rather somber personality and a play on his name. That’s probably why I was never called as a member of the Church Music Committee. 😲

Those must have been wonderful experiences. I wondered why Clay pronounced his name Chris-tee-an-sen. Do you know my friend Dr. Walter Whipple?

Afraid not. 

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8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Afraid not. 

My age, BA and MA BYU, doctorate in organ performance from USC, professor of music at Rockford College (IL), first President of the Warsaw Poland Mission (1990), Professor of Polish and Slavic Languages at BYU, organist at BYU Jerusalem Center, Church Music Committee, cellist in Utah Valley Symphony for many years, lives in Provo. A good fellow to know....if you get a chance.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 1/27/2020 at 3:09 PM, Duncan said:

I don't like that hymn that has the words, IIRC "firm as the mountains around us: but we are on the prairies.......................ain't no mountains for kilometres!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That one has to stay as my great-grandmother penned the lyrics 🙂

 

Edited by bearhoof
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