My Vote for Hymn to Exclude From the Next Hymnal

[Bernard Gui]

36 minutes ago, pogi said:

Isn't it the conductor who is supposed to set the tempo?

In the best scenario, the conductor and organist are in cahoots about the tempo, having met beforehand to choose a metronome setting for each hymn and then consulting the metronome just before starting. I doubt more than one out of a hundred do this.

Some conductors may direct the introduction to set the tempo they want, but this is also rare. Or they may make eye contact with the organist and discretely set a tempo before the intro. 

Usually the organist just sets the tempo while playing the introduction. It’s a rare chorister that will try to change it once the hymn starts. That can cause a lot of confusion.

The congregation will usually drag behind the organ. If the organist allows this, the tempo will gradually drift downward. You can hear this from the organ seat, but you have to ignore it and push forward. When this happens, I turn up the volume or play more staccato so they can hear the beat better..

If the organist lacks technical skills, he/she will not be able to play some faster hymns at the proper tempo. Also some keys are more difficult than others.

Bottom line.....unless the chorister is competent and assertive, the organist will control the tempo.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

In the best scenario, the conductor and organist are in cahoots about the tempo, having met beforehand to choose a metronome setting for each hymn and then consulting the metronome just before starting. I doubt more than one out of a hundred do this.

Some conductors may direct the introduction to set the tempo they want, but this is also rare. Or they may make eye contact with the organist and discretely set a tempo before the intro. 

Usually the organist just sets the tempo while playing the introduction. It’s a rare chorister that will try to change it once the hymn starts. That can cause a lot of confusion.

The congregation will usually drag behind the organ. If the organist allows this, the tempo will gradually drift downward. You can hear this from the organ seat, but you have to ignore it and push forward. When this happens, I turn up the volume or play more staccato so they can hear the beat better..

If the organist lacks technical skills, he/she will not be able to play some faster hymns at the proper tempo. Also some keys are more difficult than others.

Bottom line.....unless the chorister is competent and assertive, the organist will control the tempo.

Which kind of begs the question, why do we even have a conductor if all they do is follow the organist?  It seems the organist is perfectly capable of leading the congregation, which they kind of do anyway as very few actually watch the conductor.  It might be helpful for someone who is extremely hard of hearing (as organs are loud) to have visual cues, but most people with that poor of hearing don't sing anyway because they can't hear the key.

Edited January 29, 2020 by pogi

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I like the song, but it IS long. McConkie had to know that it would be shortened for meetings. I would wager that it is a rather rare occasion that his entire poem is sung.

Really?  I don't think i've ever been in a meeting where it was shortened.  Maybe if we had gone over time it has been and I don't remember, but normally when I've sung this song it's been the WHHOOOLLLEEE thing.  

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Which kind of begs the question, why do we even have a conductor if all they do is follow the organist?  It seems the organist is perfectly capable of leading the congregation, which they kind of do anyway as very few actually watch the conductor.  It might be helpful for someone who is extremely hard of hearing (as organs are loud) to have visual cues, but most people with that poor of hearing don't sing anyway because they can't hear the key.

My wife is legally deaf and even with her cochlear implant in one ear and hearing aid in the other she still doesn't hear much, and yet she sings even though she is usually off key.  And she sings solo, too.  Solo that I can barely hear her even with her sitting right next to me.

I don't know if the conductor helps her.  I look at him sometimes, like when there is a hold on a note or just to say Hi with eye contact before we start singing.  Everybody needs a job so I think we should just continue to let him do what he does.

[MorningStar]

I would at least like the lyrics changed for any hymn that has the word "molest". I only know of one. Please and thank you. 

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I would at least like the lyrics changed for any hymn that has the word "molest". I only know of one. Please and thank you. 

Assault has the same number of syllables, 2, so you can substitute that and still keep the same rhythm as everybody else who is in rhythm.  I substitute words when I think my word is more appropriate.  No need to wait until somebody else changes the book.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

Which kind of begs the question, why do we even have a conductor if all they do is follow the organist?  It seems the organist is perfectly capable of leading the congregation, which they kind of do anyway as very few actually watch the conductor.  It might be helpful for someone who is extremely hard of hearing (as organs are loud) to have visual cues, but most people with that poor of hearing don't sing anyway because they can't hear the key.

I agree the director should set the tempo. But (s)he communicates with the congregation in other ways:  

— Conveying mood for the performance through facial expressions and vigorous or subdued direction. 

— Ensuring that organist and singers start and stop together. 

— Determining the length of a fermata (hold) in the middle of the music. 

— Designating, usually after a spoken or visual cue from the person conducting the meeting, that the song is to be shortened by leaving out some verses or lengthened by adding verses not typically sung by the congregation. 

— Occasionally and judiciously trying something unusual, like interchanging the words of one hymn with the music of another with a matching meter. 

[HappyJackWagon]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Really?  I don't think i've ever been in a meeting where it was shortened.  Maybe if we had gone over time it has been and I don't remember, but normally when I've sung this song it's been the WHHOOOLLLEEE thing.  

Interesting.

We NEVER sing the whole thing. We most often do the first and 4th verse.

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I agree the director should set the tempo. But (s)he communicates with the congregation in other ways:  

— Conveying mood for the performance through facial expressions and vigorous or subdued direction. 

— Ensuring that organist and singers start and stop together. 

— Determining the length of a fermata (hold) in the middle of the music. 

— Designating, usually after a spoken or visual cue from the person conducting the meeting, that the song is to be shortened by leaving out some verses or lengthened by adding verses not typically sung by the congregation. 

— Occasionally and judiciously trying something unusual, like interchanging the words of one hymn with the music of another with a matching meter. 

Maybe that is why our hymns are usually so drab...the conductor is conveying the mood   It would be awesome to have a conductor who actually got into it and...led. I have only seen that once or twice in my life. 

You are right that a conductor can be helpful for those things, but I don't think it is necessary.  It is mostly pretty straight forward stuff and easy to follow with just an organ. I have never heard the last one done in sacrament, except by the choir.  I am not opposed to conductors, but as tradition has made it, they have mostly become an ineffectual vestige of what should be.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I like the song, but it IS long. McConkie had to know that it would be shortened for meetings. I would wager that it is a rather rare occasion that his entire poem is sung.

If I were a betting man (which I’m not; I oppose gambling on principle), and if there were a way to establish the accuracy of your assertion (I don’t know how that could be done) I’d readily take that wager. My experience is the same as Bluebell’s: I’ve never been in a meeting where the hymn has been shortened. 

Furthermore, based on my interview with John Longhurst, recounted earlier in this thread, I would contradict your assumption that Elder McConkie “had to know” it would routinely be shortened. He insisted that all the verses be included, and I’m certain he fully intended the hymn not be shortened. 

Finally, notwithstanding the hymn’s length, I don’t know that it’s all that much longer than some of our standard hymns. I have a stake assignment to coordinate a mid-week discussion group at an assisted-living facility in our boundaries, based on the “Come Follow Me” curriculum. Today, I selected for our hymn “I’ll Go Where You Want Me to Go.” I found myself reflecting that it’s not much shorter than “I Believe in Christ,” considering its four considerably long verses with a chorus of moderate length after each. 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Interesting.

We NEVER sing the whole thing. We most often do the first and 4th verse.

My sense is that your practice is what is rare. 

And I don’t approve of local leaders routinely shortening hymns. It’s tolerable if the meeting is running long, but the hymns are part of our liturgy and ordinarily intended to be sung in their entirety. 

If you can’t abide the length of one hymn, best to select another. 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My sense is that your practice is what is rare. 

And I don’t approve of local leaders routinely shortening hymns. It’s tolerable if the meeting is running long, but the hymns are part of our liturgy and ordinarily intended to be sung in their entirety. 

If you can’t abide the length of one hymn, best to select another. 

My mind was caught away by memories of singing only one verse of a hymn in the opening exercises of Priesthood meetings.  Did that never happen in any ward you attended?  Did you feel slighted that you didn't get to sing the whole song?

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, pogi said:

Maybe that is why our hymns are usually so drab...the conductor is conveying the mood   It would be awesome to have a conductor who actually got into it and...led. I have only seen that once or twice in my life. 

You are right that a conductor can be helpful for those things, but I don't think it is necessary.  It is mostly pretty straight forward stuff and easy to follow with just an organ. I have never heard the last one done in sacrament, except by the choir.  I am not opposed to conductors, but as tradition has made it, they have mostly become an ineffectual vestige of what should be.  

What is “necessary” is often in the eye of the beholder. We could sing a cappella with no director, if need be, but I think most would agree it’s a better experience with organ or piano accompaniment and better still with a competent and engaged leader. 

And just because things are not done as they should be, does that mean we have to  surrender ourselves to the tyranny of apathy and indifference? Can’t we try to improve? You asked what good it is to have a conductor; I’ve given you my suggestions. Or were you just trying to make a rhetorical point?

Finally, sacrament meetings are not the only occasions when we have congregational hymn singing. As I already mentioned on this thread, what I suggested above pertaining to interchanging words and music I have applied when I conducted hymn singing in priesthood meeting (back in the days when we sang in priesthood meeting). And I’ve seen the conductor do it at the MTC in Provo, where it is the custom at devotionals for the congregation to sing several hymns while waiting for the meeting to start. That’s where I got the idea, in fact. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, Ahab said:

My mind was caught away by memories of singing only one verse of a hymn in the opening exercises of Priesthood meetings.  Did that never happen in any ward you attended?  Did you feel slighted that you didn't get to sing the whole song?

When I was the music leader in priesthood meeting, I tried to encourage singing of the entire hymn. Of course, I did what the bishopric wanted, but privately I never approved of routinely shortening it to a verse or two, and I don’t believe that practice was ever required by general Church leaders. I don’t know how it took hold among our people.

When we have our preparation meetings as male ordinance workers in the temple, we always sing the entire hymn. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Rivers]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Get it right. It's "How deh you!  How deh you!" delivered with a huge dose of dripping condescension and smugness.

Thanks for the correction. 

[Boanerges]

I have a whole list, and this list is not comprehensive (meaning I'm likely to find others). And, there are others which could go either way - I don't care if they stay or go. And I know this is just wishful thinking, but the question was my vote for exclusion. 

 

 

All the Utah-centric/mountain/Zion ones. In Our Lovely Deseret and Carry On never made much sense to me in the US northeast or on my mission in New Zealand.

The restoration hymns that talk about angels, for example What Was Witnessed or An Angel From On High. (I simply don't like those ones with or without angels.)

The prophet/praise the prophet songs because there are too many of them (there are more of them than there are Easter songs) and just because....

National anthems

The men or women only ones and make Brightly Beams Our Father's Mercy four part.

The New Years songs.

Praise to the Man

They the Builders of the Nation

Love at Home (hard to sing and I don't like it - and for some people it's totally unrealistic)

The militaristic ones with the exception of Battle Hymn of the Republic and Onward Christian Soldiers because I like them and they're normal Christian hymns, and keep the other hymns that other Christians sing such as How Great Thou Art, A Mighty Fortress, All Creatures of Our God and King.

Other keepers: All the sacrament hymns (but revise one line of In Humility Our Savior because of grace - we can't and don't prove ourselves worthy), the "praise" hymns (about numbers 70-80), the Christmas songs, the Easter songs (and we could use more celebrating the greatest Christian event), the Thanksgiving songs, and the Savior songs (hymns 96-117).

 

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What is “necessary” is often in the eye of the beholder. We could sing a cappella with no director, if need be, but I think most would agree it’s a better experience with organ or piano accompaniment and better still with a competent and engaged leader. 

And just because things are not done as they should be, does that mean we have to  surrender ourselves to the tyranny of apathy and indifference? Can’t we try to improve? 

I don't disagree with you here. As I said, I am not opposed to having conductor.  I was simply commenting on what the calling and practice has turned into culturally, vs what it should/could be. Call me a cynic, but I don't see it improving, and that is something that is out of my hands.  Well trained conductors are great, and rare. I don't blame the people in that calling, it just isn't something that an untrained volunteer is equipped to do well at.  It has just become something of a peculiarity to me - it is something that exists, but doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose as it is. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by pogi

[HappyJackWagon]

33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My sense is that your practice is what is rare. 

And I don’t approve of local leaders routinely shortening hymns. It’s tolerable if the meeting is running long, but the hymns are part of our liturgy and ordinarily intended to be sung in their entirety. 

If you can’t abide the length of one hymn, best to select another. 

Based on yours and other comments I'm guessing you're right that my experience is the unusual one

But many hymns are shortened. I can't be the only one with that experience. We often have hymn # XXX  1st, 2nd and 4th verse or something similar in our meetings.

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't disagree with you here. As I said, I am not opposed to having conductor.  I was simply commenting on what the calling and practice has turned into culturally, vs what it should/could be. Call me a cynic, but I don't see it improving, and that is something that is out of my hands.  Well trained conductors are great, and rare.  I don't blame the people in that calling, it just isn't something that an untrained volunteer can do well at.   

We do a lot of things in the Church for which no formal training is given. I wasn’t trained as a choir director, and I felt very daunted when I got that calling. But I used what resources I could find on my own initiative, and I think I had it down pretty well in the end. 
 

I’ve never been trained as a music director in sacrament meeting, for that matter. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Based on yours and other comments I'm guessing you're right that my experience is the unusual one

But many hymns are shortened. I can't be the only one with that experience. We often have hymn # XXX  1st, 2nd and 4th verse or something similar in our meetings.

As I said, if the meeting is running long, it’s tolerable. If it’s done for no apparent reason, not so much. 

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

We do a lot of things in the Church for which no formal training is given. I wasn’t trained as a choir director, and I felt very daunted when I got that calling. But I used what resources I could find on my own initiative, and I think I had it down pretty well in the end. 
 

I’ve never been trained as a music director in sacrament meeting, for that matter. 

People tend to follow trends and examples of how things have been done previously.  I agree, it can be done.  I just haven't seen it in this particular calling. 

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, Boanerges said:

I have a whole list, and this list is not comprehensive (meaning I'm likely to find others). And, there are others which could go either way - I don't care if they stay or go. And I know this is just wishful thinking, but the question was my vote for exclusion. 

 

 

 

 

All the Utah-centric/mountain/Zion ones. In Our Lovely Deseret and Carry On never made much sense to me in the US northeast or on my mission in New Zealand.

The restoration hymns that talk about angels, for example What Was Witnessed or An Angel From On High. (I simply don't like those ones with or without angels.)

The prophet/praise the prophet songs because there are too many of them (there are more of them than there are Easter songs) and just because....

National anthems

The men or women only ones and make Brightly Beams Our Father's Mercy four part.

The New Years songs.

Praise to the Man

They the Builders of the Nation

Love at Home (hard to sing and I don't like it - and for some people it's totally unrealistic)

The militaristic ones with the exception of Battle Hymn of the Republic and Onward Christian Soldiers because I like them and they're normal Christian hymns, and keep the other hymns that other Christians sing such as How Great Thou Art, A Mighty Fortress, All Creatures of Our God and King.

Other keepers: All the sacrament hymns (but revise one line of In Humility Our Savior because of grace - we can't and don't prove ourselves worthy), the "praise" hymns (about numbers 70-80), the Christmas songs, the Easter songs (and we could use more celebrating the greatest Christian event), the Thanksgiving songs, and the Savior songs (hymns 96-117).

 

Looks like you pretty much want to eliminate everything that isn’t Protestant. 
 

By the way, the music of “Brightly Beams Our Father’s Mercy” already is in a four-part (tenor-tenor-baritone-bass) arrangement. But if you want it soprano-alto-tenor-bass, just go to “Should You Feel Inclined to Censure,” which has the same tune arranged with those men’s and women’s parts. 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I don' think songs are played slow because the organists are not talented enough to keep up. 

Based solely on my personal experience in the church, I would say that is easily the most common reason. 

I can probably count on one hand the number of wards I have been in where the organist was up to snuff. 

If your experience has been different, well, consider me envious. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

I would at least like the lyrics changed for any hymn that has the word "molest". I only know of one. Please and thank you. 

 

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Assault has the same number of syllables, 2, so you can substitute that and still keep the same rhythm as everybody else who is in rhythm.  I substitute words when I think my word is more appropriate.  No need to wait until somebody else changes the book.

Assuming that “molest” is being objected to because of possible sexual connotation, “assault” could be objected to on the same grounds. 
 

Can’t we all just recognize that most words vary in meaning according to context? 

[Boanerges]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My sense is that your practice is what is rare. 

And I don’t approve of local leaders routinely shortening hymns. It’s tolerable if the meeting is running long, but the hymns are part of our liturgy and ordinarily intended to be sung in their entirety. 

If you can’t abide the length of one hymn, best to select another. 

Nah, between 70-80 and 96-117 there are lots of our "own" (Latter-day Saint authors) and there are plenty of others that I said I could take or leave. I Believe In Christ, which has been part of this discussion, in one of those. I neither love nor hate it, include it or not I don't care. The vast majority of hymns in the current book fall into that category. I even like Joseph Smith's First Prayer even though it's hard to sing for some people (I can hit the high notes), but I'd prefer its named be changed to Oh How Lovely Was The Morning. I also like the many of the first ones in the current book, which are very Latter-day Saintish such as The Spirit of God, The Morning Breaks, and Israel, Israel, God is Calling. I realize I did answer more than the question asked with some of the ones I would like to keep, but there are more on that I'd like to keep (the list is not comprehensive) and I didn't mention the ones I'd like to add.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Boanerges