My Vote for Hymn to Exclude From the Next Hymnal

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Nice try, bro. Just more ignorance of first and second century Christianity with which Mormonism has no connection to.

That was a joke. I know what they mean and if I did not the search is right above this window.  

[longview]

On 2/11/2020 at 9:03 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Mostly the copies were dark blue. But I do remember some being red. It runs in my mind those were made for organists and pianists to use in accompanying the congregation. 
 

And as it happens, the one I have retained in my personal library, which my parents salvaged for me from their ward just after the publication of the 1985 hymn book, has a brown cover. Go figure. 

Maybe that brown cover actually was faded from red?   I have carpet that has turned brown that used to be red (I know, it is way overdue for replacement).

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Valentinus said:

You're not looking at the Greek, Scott. One of the issues with people is that they don't realize that saying "like unto my body" is not the same as saying "like my body". Huge difference. Perhaps showing a Greek translation and theological variance that supports your position is in order.

Maybe I missed it, but have you shown why translation, etc supports your position yet?

Edited February 15, 2020 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe I missed it, but have you shown why translation, etc supports your position yet?

Fr. Barron provides a much better explanation than I could give justice.

 

[Calm]

I don't do podcasts for such things.  I have to see stuff written or it doesn't compute.

Do you have something specifically about the Greek?

Edited February 15, 2020 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't do podcasts for such things.  I have to see stuff written or it doesn't compute.

Do you have something specifically about the Greek?

The Greek word used is ἐστί (esti). It is a present tense term used in Matt. 26:26. It gives no room for figurative language. So when Jesus says that the Eucharist is His body and blood He means right now.

 

 

[Boanerges]

On 2/11/2020 at 9:28 PM, Calm said:

Was the previous hymnbook red or blue?  Trying to remember if I have one...pretty sure I have a red hymnbook.

The ones in my ward were brown. When they were throwing them out they allowed people to take them if they wanted,  and I have a couple in my library. I don't recall them being anything but brown but I joined the church in '81 and probably didn't pay that much attention to a trivial matter. Are all the current ones green? I'm pretty sure I've only seen green here. (FWIW green happens to be my favorite color, and perhaps that is why I notice this trivial matter and not the previous edition's trivial matter.)

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, longview said:

Maybe that brown cover actually was faded from red?   I have carpet that has turned brown that used to be red (I know, it is way overdue for replacement).

Nope. It has always been brown. 
 

In later years, they did make them with brown covers (I don’t recall if they were still issuing blue ones as well). 
 

The red ones were not for use by the congregation. They were large-print and, I think, spiral-bound, suitable for use by pianists or organists accompanying the congregation. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Valentinus said:

The Greek word used is ἐστί (esti). It is a present tense term used in Matt. 26:26. It gives no room for figurative language. So when Jesus says that the Eucharist is His body and blood He means right now.

 

 

 

I know no Greek, but using Strong's it appears the same word is used for "You are the salt of the earth."

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/5-13.htm

Yet I suspect he is not saying they are literally salt.  Do you agree?

 

[Damien the Leper]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I know no Greek, but using Strong's it appears the same word is used for "You are the salt of the earth."

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/5-13.htm

Yet I suspect he is not saying they are literally salt.  Do you agree?

 

From catholicbible101:

 

Transubstantiation

 

John 6: [48] I am the bread of life.

[49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

[50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

[52]The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (The Greek word here for "eats" means to "munch on", or to "gnaw on.")

[55] For my flesh is REAL FOOD, and my blood is REAL DRINK.(Notice how Jesus says the Eucharist is REAL FOOD and REAL DRINK, not symbolic food and drink!)

[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

[57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

[58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

[Calm]

This does not address my possible refutation of  your argument that it was the Greek verb forcing it to be taken literal by pointing out same Greek verb for "you are the salt" and I believe also when Jesus says I am the vine.

Can you address that before moving on to other verses, please.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

On 2/15/2020 at 3:14 PM, Boanerges said:

The ones in my ward were brown. When they were throwing them out they allowed people to take them if they wanted,  and I have a couple in my library. I don't recall them being anything but brown but I joined the church in '81 and probably didn't pay that much attention to a trivial matter. Are all the current ones green? I'm pretty sure I've only seen green here. (FWIW green happens to be my favorite color, and perhaps that is why I notice this trivial matter and not the previous edition's trivial matter.)

The current ones are all green, but the large-size, large-print, spiral-bound copies made for use by pianists and organists are a darker shade — more of a forest green — than the standard ones used by members of the congregation. I have one of the larger ones on my piano, imprinted with my name. I’m looking at it now as I write this. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 2/15/2020 at 3:14 PM, Valentinus said:

The Greek word used is ἐστί (esti). It is a present tense term used in Matt. 26:26. It gives no room for figurative language. So when Jesus says that the Eucharist is His body and blood He means right now.

 

 

 

It could be present tense and still be metaphorical. Tense of the verb does not determine whether or not the statement is figurative. 

[Damien the Leper]

On 2/16/2020 at 1:39 AM, Calm said:

This does not address my possible refutation of  your argument that it was the Greek verb forcing it to be taken literal by pointing out same Greek verb for "you are the salt" and I believe also when Jesus says I am the vine.

Can you address that before moving on to other verses, please.

The refutation in this circumstance doesn't stand in light of supporting text. Can esti be used in the way you suggest? Absolutely. I concede that. But as I stated before, it doesn't allow for figurative language in this case based on supporting text from John's gospel.

Since esti is a variant form of to be, I suppose you could be right that Jesus was being figurative when He said, "I am the way, the truth and the light." Eimi (εἰμί) is also a variant of esti according to greek lexicons. If this is the case, are you willing to take Jesus's claim figuratively and with a grain of salt?

Edited February 18, 2020 by Valentinus