My Vote for Hymn to Exclude From the Next Hymnal

[Damien the Leper]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How can you declare that with such certitude when the Bible is so replete with metaphor and imagery?

How about due to the literal way He declared the bread and water. The word is isn't used as figurative language. He never said "this is like unto my blood/body" because He knew that would be worthless.

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, Valentinus said:

How about due to the literal way He declared the bread and water. The word is isn't used as figurative language. He never said "this is like unto my blood/body" because He knew that would be worthless.

By definition a metaphor uses “is” instead of “like” or “as” for imagery. “My life is an open book” is an example of a metaphor. 

Are you really saying the Bible has no metaphors? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you. 
 

Edited to add: 

I Googled “metaphors in the Bible.” Here is a link to the first item returned: 

 

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-examples-of-metaphors-in-the-Bible

Edited February 7, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Amulek]

8 hours ago, Valentinus said:

How about due to the literal way He declared the bread and water.

How about the literal way he declared "I am the way." Are we to take it then, that Jesus wasn't really a person but a literal road? I mean, he didn't say he was "like" a way or "as" a way in some respect, so I guess he must have been speaking literally. 

I'm sorry, but you can't possibly be serious with this 'no metaphor' nonsense.

You're just trolling us, right?

 

[The Nehor]

On 2/6/2020 at 11:12 PM, Valentinus said:

How about due to the literal way He declared the bread and water. The word is isn't used as figurative language. He never said "this is like unto my blood/body" because He knew that would be worthless.

Simile is comparing something to something often using “like” or “as”. Metaphor is saying something is something it is literally not in order to make a point. In the best metaphors it conveys something difficult to say in explicitly factual language. If you say someone is a peach or that Jesus is the rock you are using metaphor.

Edited February 10, 2020 by The Nehor

[Damien the Leper]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Simile is comparing something to something often using “like” or “as”. Metaphor is saying something is something it is literally not in order to make a point. In the best metaphors it conveys something difficult to say in explicitly factual language. If you say someone is a peach or that Jesus is the rock you are using metaphor.

I'm familiar with the difference between a simile and a metaphor. However, according to the literal language used in the Greek text there's no room for figurative language. Therefore, there's no room for pneumatic presence eucharist. So go ahead and continue consuming your bread and water that has no epiklesis or anamnesis. It can be symbolic but holds no weight when it comes to the last supper and sacrifice of Christ.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I'm familiar with the difference between a simile and a metaphor. However, according to the literal language used in the Greek text there's no room for figurative language. Therefore, there's no room for pneumatic presence eucharist. So go ahead and continue consuming your bread and water that has no epiklesis or anamnesis. It can be symbolic but holds no weight when it comes to the last supper and sacrifice of Christ.

See John 15:5. Is Jesus saying here that He and His disciples LITERALLY are a grapevine?

How does that work, exactly?

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I'm familiar with the difference between a simile and a metaphor. However, according to the literal language used in the Greek text there's no room for figurative language. Therefore, there's no room for pneumatic presence eucharist. So go ahead and continue consuming your bread and water that has no epiklesis or anamnesis. It can be symbolic but holds no weight when it comes to the last supper and sacrifice of Christ.

Are those like gluten? How many calories do they add?

[mnn727]

On 1/29/2020 at 1:32 PM, Boanerges said:

The men or women only ones and make Brightly Beams Our Father's Mercy four part.

 

I had to look that one up. I don't believe that's ever been sung in any Ward I have attended. Looking at the words, I'd say - dump it.

(why don't we have a thumbs down emoji?)

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

I had to look that one up. I don't believe that's ever been sung in any Ward I have attended. Looking at the words, I'd say - dump it.

(why don't we have a thumbs down emoji?)

Look under the "people & body" section.

👎

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

I had to look that one up. I don't believe that's ever been sung in any Ward I have attended. Looking at the words, I'd say - dump it.

(why don't we have a thumbs down emoji?)

I don’t understand why the words would be seen as offensive. It’s a beautiful analogy, one that has been enlarged upon by Church leaders over the years. 
 

But I pledged not to argue over personal preferences, so I’ll lay the matter down. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I had to look that one up. I don't believe that's ever been sung in any Ward I have attended.

This one is a favourite across our entire stake. I don't know how many times we've sung it in, for example, a stake leadership meeting.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This one is a favourite across our entire stake. I don't know how many times we've sung it in, for example, a stake leadership meeting.

It really brings home the concepts of ministering and shepherding. 
 

I not only think it should be retained but that the text should be set to the SATB arrangement, already in the hymn book for “Should You Feel Inclined to Censure,” thus making it accessible to women in the Church. 

I do like the four-part male vocal arrangement too, though — especially when performed by a men’s quartet. So I hope we keep that one around. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I not only think it should be retained but that the text should be set to the SATB arrangement, already in the hymn book for “Should You Feel Inclined to Censure,” thus making it accessible to women in the Church. 

I do like the four-part male vocal arrangement too, though — especially when performed by a men’s quartet. So I hope we keep that one around. 

Most of this just goes over my head, but I've already reconciled myself to the fact that the new hymnal will inevitably be lacking some old favourites, and I'll just get used to belting out some sweet new African tunes to make up for it.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[Boanerges]

12 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I had to look that one up. I don't believe that's ever been sung in any Ward I have attended. Looking at the words, I'd say - dump it.

(why don't we have a thumbs down emoji?)

Nobody sings it because it's in the men only section. But it's really a really beautiful message with loads of symbolism.

That actually brings me to another point. I don't buy that Come Thou Fount was dumped because nobody sang it. I do recall singing it several times in the old hymnbook. Maybe my ward's chorister or organist liked it or something, but I was quite familiar with it (enough so that I knew some of the words). I think it was dumped because it was too focused on grace for the ultra-conservative dogmatic leadership at the time. I also think that pendulum has swung (or at least is swinging) the other way.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Boanerges said:

Nobody sings it because it's in the men only section. But it's really a really beautiful message with loads of symbolism.

That actually brings me to another point. I don't buy that Come Thou Fount was dumped because nobody sang it. I do recall singing it several times in the old hymnbook. Maybe my ward's chorister or organist liked it or something, but I was quite familiar with it (enough so that I knew some of the words). I think it was dumped because it was too focused on grace for the ultra-conservative dogmatic leadership at the time. I also think that pendulum has swung (or at least is swinging) the other way.

The music director at the Provo Missionary Training Center, Ryan Eggett, a man who is now on the committee to prepare the new hymn book, spoke of this prior to a Provo MTC devotional a few years ago (it is the custom there for the assembled missionaries to sing hymns while they are waiting for the meeting to begin). He noted that some have wondered why the hymn was not carried over in 1985 when it is so popular today. He indicated he is acquainted with members of the 1985 hymn book committee, and the explanation they gave him was that the committee took surveys to determine the more popular and less popular hymns in the then-current hymnbook and that “Come Thou Fount” did not make the cut. He told the missionaries that with its current popularity he was certain it would be included next time (it probably will since he is now on the committee to prepare the next one). 
 

This is consistent with my own recollection. Growing up in the Church, I remember spending idle minutes looking through the hymn book and noting the titles of hymns we never sang, “Come Thou Fount” being one. I have also observed as a mature adult how, since 1985, this hymn, so largely ignored in the past, became popular due to Mack Wilberg’s arrangement for and inclusion of it in the repertoire of his choirs, both at BYU and later, the Tabernacle Choir. It has been a source of some amusement to me that younger or newer members of the Church have wondered and even harbored theories about why it was not included in 1985, while I, having lived through and observed events, know very well why. 

I don’t doubt that some Church congregations sang it occasionally pre-1985. There were valiant but largely ineffectual efforts by some local music directors back then to get their members to learn the hymns that were largely ignored (of which there were many, just as there are today, and just as there will probably be after the new book comes out). And we used to have “hymn practice” as part of Sunday School, one purpose of which was to try to get our people accustomed to the less-familiar hymns. That we don’t do that anymore and haven’t done it for decades makes it even less likely that people will bother to learn additions to the new book, especially with the grumbling and pushback that occurs when hymns are selected for congregational singing that some are unfamiliar with.

You may think what you want. But I wonder if you have anything beyond your own supposition to substantiate the belief that the hymn was dropped because dogmatic old-timers thought it focused too much on grace (this is the first time I’ve heard that, by the way). 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Boanerges]

46 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

You may think what you want. But I wonder if you have anything beyond your own supposition to substantiate the belief that the hymn was dropped because dogmatic old-timers thought it focused too much on grace (this is the first time I’ve heard that, by the way). 

Nope, just my opinion, and you're right despite the best efforts of some more dogmatic types here (present company excluded) I am free to think what I want - in other words I can think how, where and what I may. Thank you for your permission. I'm also glad your mind is open enough to entertain the idea that anti-grace dogmatism (new word for me) could possibly have had some influence even though this is the first time you've heard that idea. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Boanerges said:

Nope, just my opinion, and you're right despite the best efforts of some more dogmatic types here (present company excluded) I am free to think what I want - in other words I can think how, where and what I may. Thank you for your permission. I'm also glad your mind is open enough to entertain the idea that anti-grace dogmatism (new word for me) could possibly have had some influence even though this is the first time you've heard that idea. 

If too much focus on grace was the reason it was dropped in 1985, one wonders how it could have gotten included in the first place as part of the 1948 compilation. 
 

Edited to add:

Here’s an entry in the Tabernacle Choir Blog on this subject. 
 

https://www.thetabernaclechoir.org/articles/come-thou-fount-of-every-blessing-1985-hymnbook.html

While it says the reason for the omission is not completely clear, it does sustain my recollection that the hymn was rarely sung in many congregations while it was part of the hymn book, and it notes that members of the hymn book committee did not expect that it would be well remembered after 1985. It also supports my understanding that the hymn’s newfound popularity is attributable to Mack Wilberg. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I had to look that one up. I don't believe that's ever been sung in any Ward I have attended. Looking at the words, I'd say - dump it.

(why don't we have a thumbs down emoji?)

The message is good,  but the out-dated music is better suited for a barbershop quartet. Perhaps a new melody would revive it like Hie to Kolob was revived with Vaughan-Williams’ tune.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If too much focus on grace was the reason it was dropped in 1985, one wonders how it could have gotten included in the first place as part of the 1948 compilation. 
 

Edited to add:

Here’s an entry in the Tabernacle Choir Blog on this subject. 
 

https://www.thetabernaclechoir.org/articles/come-thou-fount-of-every-blessing-1985-hymnbook.html

While it says the reason for the omission is not completely clear, it does sustain my recollection that the hymn was rarely sung in many congregations while it was part of the hymn book, and it notes that members of the hymn book committee did not expect that it would be well remembered after 1985. It also supports my understanding that the hymn’s newfound popularity is attributable to Mack Wilberg. 

For better or worse, I think some credit should go to the emotionally tearful young lady in the video for sending it onto the Top 40 chart. If it didn’t make the cut because few sang it, how did Hie to Kolob, Adam-ondi-Ahman, and When the Rosy Light of Morning survive? 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

For better or worse, I think some credit should go to the emotionally tearful young lady in the video for sending it onto the Top 40 chart. If it didn’t make the cut because few sang it, how did Hie to Kolob, Adam-ondi-Ahman, and When the Rosy Light of Morning survive? 

Regarding the tearful young lady, maybe. But bear in mind that Brother Wilberg probably popularized the hymn not just among our people but all over. Church members little realize that Mack Wilberg is a prolific and widely acclaimed creator of choral arrangements and compositions in his genre of the music world. He is truly one of our treasures. 
 

I don’t doubt there were various considerations in the decisions about what to leave out. I’m just reporting my clear recollection that Fount was not nearly as popular or well known pre-1985 as some like to think it was or make it out to be. 
 

But it’s my understanding (I’ll have to check on this) that the texts to  “If You Could Hie to Kolob” and “Adam-Ondi-Ahmad” we’re each set to a different tune than previously. And in my opinion, the texts alone make each worth preserving, and I very much like the current musical settings. 
 

Regarding “When the Rosy Light of Morning,” I can only make my guess. Perhaps the committee felt a hymn needed to be retained that was specific to Sunday School. Hard to imagine, I know, now that Sunday School has a more diminished profile than ever before. 

And I do recall us singing that hymn in the old days — far more often than Fount.

Edited to add:  I just checked my copy of the 1948 hymn book. Turns out Kolob, which had been a choir song in the 1948 book, was indeed set to a different tune in 1985. The fact it had been designated for choir explains why it was not sung very often out of the old book.

But not Adam-Ondi-Ahman. The tune is the same.

But I am reminded now that it was the very last hymn in the book and was designated as a “congregation” hymn. The reason for this, I now recall, is that the hymn was added to the book later and was just tacked onto the end. If they had put it in the section with the other congregational hymns — before the ones for male voices, female voices and choir — that would have fouled up the pagination in the book. The easiest solution was to tack it on at the end. Maybe it kind of got lost, being the last one in the book, and that’s why it didn’t get sung very often. 

I think both hymns are used today more frequently than pre-1985, which in retrospect justifies the choice to retain them. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But it’s my understanding (I’ll have to check on this) that the texts to  “If You Could Hie to Kolob” and “Adam-Ondi-Ahmad” we’re each set to a different tune than previously

Was the previous hymnbook red or blue?  Trying to remember if I have one...pretty sure I have a red hymnbook.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Was the previous hymnbook red or blue?  Trying to remember if I have one...pretty sure I have a red hymnbook.

Mostly the copies were dark blue. But I do remember some being red. It runs in my mind those were made for organists and pianists to use in accompanying the congregation. 
 

And as it happens, the one I have retained in my personal library, which my parents salvaged for me from their ward just after the publication of the 1985 hymn book, has a brown cover. Go figure. 

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Mostly the copies were dark blue. But I do remember some being red. It runs in my mind those were made for organists and pianists to use in accompanying the congregation. 
 

And as it happens, the one I have retained in my personal library, which my parents salvaged for me from their ward just after the publication of the 1985 hymn book, has a brown cover. Go figure. 

I probably got the red one from my mother, the organist or grandmother, the pianist.  I remember the brown ones...my mom used one at home to keep her book open to the right page or so it seems in my memory.  

We got a dark blue with our name on it as a wedding gift in 80 now I think about it.  That might have gotten lost in the moves since then as I haven't seen it lately.  I was thinking it was green because I tested my name printing skill on a green hymnbook when I worked at a church  bookstore (privately owned) and I have seen that one recently, but of course the wedding one would have been too early.

[Damien the Leper]

On 2/10/2020 at 12:29 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

See John 15:5. Is Jesus saying here that He and His disciples LITERALLY are a grapevine?

How does that work, exactly?

You're not looking at the Greek, Scott. One of the issues with people is that they don't realize that saying "like unto my body" is not the same as saying "like my body". Huge difference. Perhaps showing a Greek translation and theological variance that supports your position is in order.

[Damien the Leper]

On 2/10/2020 at 12:21 PM, The Nehor said:

Are those like gluten? How many calories do they add?

Nice try, bro. Just more ignorance of first and second century Christianity with which Mormonism has no connection to.