My Vote for Hymn to Exclude From the Next Hymnal

[MustardSeed]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=8glAW9Ypwnw
 

[Ahab]

If we're still talking about adding some hymns I'd like to see this one added sometime soon just to shake things up a little.

 

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But I took her seriously about the music to “If You Could Hie to Kolob.” To me the music is beautiful if a bit unusual. I love to sing it at home as I chord along on the guitar. 

I hope she was being serious!  It is one of my favorite tunes, but I am biased in my flavor of music.  It may sound "unusual" because it is not being played with a mandolin and fiddle in an old Irish pub! 

This is one of the first songs I learned on the mandolin.  For those of you not into folk/bluegrass you may not be aware that it is actually an old folk tune (as many hymns are) called "Star of the County Down".  It also goes by "Kingsfold" in other hymnals.  The tune supposedly dates back to the middle ages with many different lyrical variations. 

I wish we could play it like this at church - that would wake people up!  Especially if we could play it in double time like they do in the first video at around the 3 minute mark.  That would be awesome!

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by pogi

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

John Longhurst, the composer of the hymn and a former principal Salt Lake Tabernacle organist, gave me the back story on this when I interviewed him at the time of his retirement. 
 

He said when the current (1985) hymn book was being prepared, he was assigned to compose music for words that Elder McConkie had written for inclusion in the new book. It was a daunting task, because the text  Elder McConkie had written had eight verses — far more than a typical hymn and, in Brother Longhurst’s view, far too many for a congregational hymn. He wrote a musical setting and proposed that only four of the verses be published. 
 

Well, word came back that Elder McConkie would not have it. He directed that the entire poem must be included in the hymn. 
 

Brother Longhurst, admittedly under deadline pressure, resolved the matter by repeating the music in each verse and calling it one verse, thus converting an eight-verse hymn into one with only four verses. 
 

To me, the music sounds fine, though it does seem long. But I’m curious about what you would have had Brother Longhurst do to solve his conundrum. 

I have no idea what else could he have done.  Sometimes our best efforts, because of the constraints placed on us, just don't work out.  It's no one's fault.

Speaking for myself of the version in the hymnal, I've heard arrangements of the song that I feel are much prettier than that one but not for the organ so maybe that was the nail in the coffin for me.  I don't know enough about composing organ music for congregations and what is possible and what isn't to say for sure though.  

Also, for other songs, such as If You Could Hie to Kolob, that have a lot of verses, the hymn is written so that singing the first 3 or 4 is the norm, with the entire song being saved for special occasions or rest hymns.  I feel like this is one of those songs that would have benefited from that treatment.  

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Derl Sanderson said:

I Believe in Christ. If it can't go, at least be honest and divide it into eight verses instead of trying to bluff us into thinking it's only four. The thing is way too long. Like a Mahler Symphony but without the genius.

Quote

Do What is Right. I don't believe that "angels above us are silent notes taking." Same goes for the second verse of Dearest Children God is Near You where angels "keep a faithful record of the good and bad you say." Sounds like Google.

I agree. And I struggle with Faith of our Fathers since my husband is a convert.  If he is true to the words of that hymn he would never have joined the church!

Quote

Ring Out Wild Bells. Hideous hymn. Changing the last chord from minor to major isn't nearly enough to redeem the darkness of the thing.

It's one of my favorites!

Quote

While of These Emblems We Partake has two versions (#173 and #174). We NEVER sing the second, which has a much more appealing accompaniment. Hose #173.

We've always sung both versions in the wards I've been a part of.  

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have no idea what else could he have done.  Sometimes our best efforts, because of the constraints placed on us, just don't work out.  It's no one's fault.

Speaking for myself of the version in the hymnal, I've heard arrangements of the song that I feel are much prettier than that one but not for the organ so maybe that was the nail in the coffin for me.  I don't know enough about composing organ music for congregations and what is possible and what isn't to say for sure though.  

Also, for other songs, such as If You Could Hie to Kolob, that have a lot of verses, the hymn is written so that singing the first 3 or 4 is the norm, with the entire song being saved for special occasions or rest hymns.  I feel like this is one of those songs that would have benefited from that treatment.  

Not what Brother McConkie wanted, though. 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I hope she was being serious!  It is one of my favorite tunes, but I am biased in my flavor of music.  It may sound "unusual" because it is not being played with a mandolin and fiddle in an old Irish pub! 

This is one of the first songs I learned on the mandolin.  For those of you not into folk/bluegrass you may not be aware that it is actually an old folk tune (as many hymns are) called "Star of the County Down".  It also goes by "Kingsfold" in other hymnals.  The tune supposedly dates back to the middle ages with many different lyrical variations. 

I wish we could play it like this at church - that would wake people up!  Especially if we could play it in double time like they do in the first video at around the 3 minute mark.  That would be awesome!

 

 

Uh hmmm  Excuse me.  If we're going to start to bring in some guitars I would like to see some people who can play some things like this:

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ahab

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not what Brother McConkie wanted, though. 

I can understand that. It’s the constraints that hobble the song in my opinion, but it’s what Elder McConkie wanted so it is what it is. 

Not all poems Make good hymns. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

We've always sung both versions in the wards I've been a part of.  

I grew up learning No. 174. Sang it as the sacrament hymn during Junior Sunday School (yeah they had junior Sunday School, not Primary, on Sunday in those days, and the sacrament was administered and passed during it). I never heard or sang No. 173 frequently until I grew up. 
 

I say keep them both. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Uh hmmm  Excuse me.  If we're going to start to bring in some guitars I would like to see some people who can play some things like this:

 

You won’t find me turning down some Carlos Santana and Stevie Ray Vaughan.   Interesting to see them playing together.  Not my favorite song choice or solo, but I wouldn’t miss that Sunday at church.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Ya best watch yerself, there, Pilgrim!  Yer talkin' about summa mah favorite hymns!!!

I’ll be careful. 😀

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

I hope she was being serious!  It is one of my favorite tunes, but I am biased in my flavor of music.  It may sound "unusual" because it is not being played with a mandolin and fiddle in an old Irish pub! 

This is one of the first songs I learned on the mandolin.  For those of you not into folk/bluegrass you may not be aware that it is actually an old folk tune (as many hymns are) called "Star of the County Down".  It also goes by "Kingsfold" in other hymnals.  The tune supposedly dates back to the middle ages with many different lyrical variations. 

I wish we could play it like this at church - that would wake people up!  Especially if we could play it in double time like they do in the first video at around the 3 minute mark.  That would be awesome!

 

 

And now for something completely different...

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But I took her seriously about the music to “If You Could Hie to Kolob.” To me the music is beautiful if a bit unusual. I love to sing it at home as I chord along on the guitar. 

And the text is beautiful as well, as it opens the mind to pondering the expansiveness of eternity. 

See the orchestra video I posted just above to Pogi that captures your description perfectly. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

See the orchestra video I posted just above to Pogi that captures your description perfectly. 

Love that!

[Bernard Gui]

We sing Come Follow Me incorrectly. The older hymn books have a comma at the end of verse four. Stopping at verse 4 ends it on an incomplete thought that is begun in verse 3 and finished in verse 5. I always want to sing the last two verses, but we never do. It’s a short hymn, so it could easily be done.

Quote

116 - Come follow me

1. "Come, follow me," the Savior said.

Then let us in his footsteps tread,

For thus alone can we be one

With God's own loved, begotten Son.

 

2. "Come, follow me," a simple phrase,

Yet truth's sublime, effulgent rays

Are in these simple words combined

To urge, inspire the human mind.

 

3. Is it enough alone to know

That we must follow him below,

While trav'ling thru this vale of tears?

No, this extends to holier spheres.

 

4. Not only shall we emulate

His course while in this earthly state,

But when we're freed from present cares,

If with our Lord we would be heirs,
 

 

5. We must the onward path pursue

As wider fields expand to view,

And follow him unceasingly,

Whate'er our lot or sphere may be.

 

6. For thrones, dominions, kingdoms, pow'rs,

And glory great and bliss are ours,

If we, throughout eternity,

Obey his words, "Come, follow me."

https://lyricstranslate.com

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We sing Come Follow Me incorrectly. The older hymn books have a comma at the end of verse four. Stopping at verse 4 ends it on an incomplete thought that is begun in verse 3 and finished in verse 5. I always want to sing the last two verses, but we never do. It’s a short hymn, so it could easily be done.

 

The last verse is my favorite. 

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

See the orchestra video I posted just above to Pogi that captures your description perfectly. 

That's now my second favorite rendition, after this one!

 

[tkv]

It's very sad to go around to different parts of the vineyard and have to put up with consistently very slow tempo hymns. I've tried to have things sped up on the local level and it doesn't last for long. Often it's just impossible to sing along with any joy.

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

And now for something completely different...

I love it!

Isn't it so awesome how many different voices a pieces of music can take on and how many different emotions it can trigger by simply adjusting tempo and instrumentation?   Speed it up with a folk band and you have a bouncy and lively Irish jig, slow it down with a string orchestra and you have a hauntingly beautiful hymn.  Give it an organ and an unenthusiastic and mostly asleep singing congregation, and you have a typical Sunday at any given Latter-day Saint chapel.  

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, tkv said:

It's very sad to go around to different parts of the vineyard and have to put up with consistently very slow tempo hymns.

This is often a function of the organist. Many wards simply don't have many people capable of playing the organ well.

When I was on my mission, I served in a ward who had an organist who was trained in organ pedagogy and who also had a degree in organ performance.

It. Was. Awesome!

 

[HappyJackWagon]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

I can understand that. It’s the constraints that hobble the song in my opinion, but it’s what Elder McConkie wanted so it is what it is. 

Not all poems Make good hymns. 

I like the song, but it IS long. McConkie had to know that it would be shortened for meetings. I would wager that it is a rather rare occasion that his entire poem is sung.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

This is often a function of the organist. Many wards simply don't have many people capable of playing the organ well.

When I was on my mission, I served in a ward who had an organist who was trained in organ pedagogy and who also had a degree in organ performance.

It. Was. Awesome!

 

Isn't it the conductor who is supposed to set the tempo?

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Isn't it the conductor who is supposed to set the tempo?

If the organist can't keep up, what good is a faster tempo?

[Amulek]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Isn't it the conductor who is supposed to set the tempo?

Sure. But the person playing the organ is the true limiting factor. 

If the suggested tempo for a song is 120 bpm, but the organist is only capable of playing it at 90 bpm, then that is what you're going to get - regardless of what the conductor wants.

 

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

If the organist can't keep up, what good is a faster tempo?

I don' think songs are played slow because the organists are not talented enough to keep up.  I think most organists in our church can play a proper tempo if the conductor would set it.  I think it is probably true however that most organists probably set the tempo and the conductor kind of follows their lead.  That's not how it is supposed to be though.