mnn727 Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’m one who favors patriotic hymns and anthems sung in church. We believe in being good citizens. No -- dump them all. I refuse to sing them and I refuse to stand for them if sung in Church. We worship God, not 'the state'. I threatened to "take the knee" last time a patriotic song was sung, but my wife gave me "that look" so I just sat there instead. 1
MustardSeed Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 Let’s add The Devil went down to Georgia. Feel good song about reigning victorious over the fight against satan. Plus it has a cool fiddle solo. 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: So only two national anthems can get in the hymn book? Aren't we now supposedly a worldwide Church? Then I vote for the Polish national anthem. "Poland Is Not Yet Lost." Seriously. Them' s some stubborn folks who don't care who is in charge this week. Napoleon, Nazis, Ruskies, Prussia, who else you got? It's a flat plain between Germany and Russia, and a great place to try out the new tanks, or other War toys. "Whatcha doin this weekend"? "Oh I don't know. Let's conquer Poland." Good luck. No one can conquer Poland regardless of who's in charge. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_Is_Not_Yet_Lost I say eliminate all nationalistic songs or national anthems from the hymnbook, but publish an insert of such songs that can be glued into the local language/country version. Edited January 28, 2020 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: You’re probably right, but some people will be put out no matter which ones are omitted. Honestly, for the reasons I’ve given, I don’t think I’d miss 219. Many of my objections are to hymns that are set to inferior music. Maybe better melodies would save them. Good text with good music make excellent hymns. I would not miss Truth Reflects Upon our Senses. The real words are "Life is Like a Mountain Railway." I cannot sing that hymn with a straight face because I used to perform the country/bluegrass version in Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge string band. Come Away to the Sunday School could go away. In Our Lovely Deseret, Called to Serve (yep), We Are All Enlisted, and most of the other march tempo dotted-eighth/sixteenth note rhythm (tah-ti tah-ti tah-ti) and Salvation Army Band-style tunes need to go. In My Opinion. It's a mine field. Fools enter where angels fear to tread. Any hymn one proposes to delete will have passionate devotees who will defend it to the death. There is no accounting for taste. Edited January 28, 2020 by Bernard Gui 2
Tacenda Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 They should put different nationalities' music in. Songs that reflect many of the members in the church. Off the top of my head I can think of a song that hit me hard and gave me the feel goods, or the spirit during a visit from the Baptist Calvary Church's choir to our stake during Christmas time. Our stake president did this probably three years in a row that I remember. Each ward had their choirs sing as well. The song was, "Go Tell It On the Mountain". I'll never forget standing up and clapping to that song, along with the whole stake and our stake presidency swaying and clapping up on the stand. This took place in the stake center, in the chapel and cultural hall and the room was so full we also sat on the stage. It was so memorable. I hope the hymns have more spirited music, and wouldn't that make Gladys Knight happy!
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: Yes, and I am okay with putting in Australian, South African, New Zealand, and other nation's national hymns into the English hymnbook. I would recommend putting the Polish anthem in the Polish hymnbook. Racist! Well I suppose that does make SOME sense....
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 4 hours ago, sheilauk said: I don't understand this post. There are currently only 2 national anthems in the book, decided by the previous committee. My vote is to have no national anthems in at all because it is a world wide church and we should all have the same and there is no need for the anthems. If folks don't know their anthems, why should we care at all? How about canonizing state flags ?
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 4 hours ago, 2BizE said: Ha ha, happy to call it out, and I’m not even an apostate, just non-orthodox. I am not familiar with that denomination.
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: I say eliminate all nationalistic songs or national anthems from the hymnbook, but publish an insert of such songs that can be glued into the local language/country version. Perfect solution, but why sing ANY national anthems in church? Does it lead us toward a unified church culture that transcends nationalism? Or is it divisive? That was exactly my reason for bringing up the Polish anthem. Hopefully it gets folks to think about it
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: They should put different nationalities' music in. Songs that reflect many of the members in the church. Off the top of my head I can think of a song that hit me hard and gave me the feel goods, or the spirit during a visit from the Baptist Calvary Church's choir to our stake during Christmas time. Our stake president did this probably three years in a row that I remember. Each ward had their choirs sing as well. The song was, "Go Tell It On the Mountain". I'll never forget standing up and clapping to that song, along with the whole stake and our stake presidency swaying and clapping up on the stand. This took place in the stake center, in the chapel and cultural hall and the room was so full we also sat on the stage. It was so memorable. I hope the hymns have more spirited music, and wouldn't that make Gladys Knight happy! We did that for years but the charm eventually wore off due to lack of interest. It was no longer novel. But it was a great experience while it lasted. And we got to sing at some other churches as well. That was very positive it's just a shame that people lost interest.
Rain Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: But it has no vocal harmony, only a lead (soprano) line. The direction on the sheet music is to sing it in unison. I've never noticed to sing it in unison, but unless I was in choir I wouldn't worry about it. You can sing harmony without it being written. I discovered years ago I wasn't singing the alto part in "Come, Come Ye Saints" years ago. Too many years in Festival of the American West where the alto was different. It didn't sound bad so I continued. Now days, I've naturally done little bits of both.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Rain said: I've never noticed to sing it in unison, but unless I was in choir I wouldn't worry about it. You can sing harmony without it being written. I discovered years ago I wasn't singing the alto part in "Come, Come Ye Saints" years ago. Too many years in Festival of the American West where the alto was different. It didn't sound bad so I continued. Now days, I've naturally done little bits of both. Not everybody can sing harmony correctly without written musical notation to follow. Even then, some can't do it without going over it repeatedly. Anyone who has ever sung in a ward choir has observed this. I have a pretty good ear for chord structure, and even I can't always do it on the fly. Edited January 28, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: So only two national anthems can get in the hymn book? What do you mean "the hymn book"? Do you think there is only an English language version of the hymnbook? Isn't that a bit presumptuously jingoistic?
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Many of my objections are to hymns that are set to inferior music. Maybe better melodies would save them. Good text with good music make excellent hymns. I would not miss Truth Reflects Upon our Senses. The real words are "Life is Like a Mountain Railway." I cannot sing that hymn with a straight face because I used to perform the country/bluegrass version in Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge string band. Come Away to the Sunday School could go away. In Our Lovely Deseret, Called to Serve (yep), We Are All Enlisted, and most of the other march tempo dotted-eighth/sixteenth note rhythm (tah-ti tah-ti tah-ti) and Salvation Army Band-style tunes need to go. In My Opinion. It's a mine field. Fools enter where angels fear to tread. No matter which hymn one proposes for delete, it will have passionate devotees who will defend it to the death. There is no accounting for taste. Did you ever perform "Go Tell Aunt Rhodie" ("Lord Dismiss Us with Thy Blessings") in your bluegrass group? How about "The Old Oaken Bucket" ("Do What Is Right")? The only one I would defend to the death is "Praise to the Man." Regardless of what happens, I will be singing that with gusto (and defiance, if need be) until the day I die. Edited January 28, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 8 hours ago, 2BizE said: I vote that Praise to the Man be removed. It is clearly prophet worship. We should be singing praises to Christ, not Joseph Smith. Do you ever praise your children for doing well in school? HERESY!
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: If You Could Hie to Kolob (Hymns 1985 No. 284) has many of the same problems, but I hope they/we don't get rid of it. (It is not copiable because of where the music comes from, so the music for it, too, is not available on the Church's Web site). It has esoteric doctrine (and perhaps speculation) with which some members are uncomfortable ... but that's why I like it. For the most part, beyond a rather basic "Plan of Salvation" lesson and some references in the scriptures, with respect to the life to come, all we can do is speculate. Still, I like the idea that this life wasn't our beginning, and its end won't be our end. We came from somewhere, a place where we spent (essentially) eternity past getting ready to come here, and we're going somewhere, a place where we will spend (essentially) eternity future learning, growing, and becoming something we cannot now fathom, getting answers to so many of the questions that so perplex(ed) us here (to which I say, "Hasten the day!" ). Good post, but I don't agree the doctrine is esoteric. It is in the scriptures, which we are all invited, nay, urged to study diligently and regularly.That's the antithesis of esoteric, which means intended for a select few.
Bernard Gui Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Did you ever perform "Go Tell Aunt Rhodie" ("Lord Dismiss Us with Thy Blessings") in your bluegrass group? How about "The Old Oaken Bucket" ("Do What Is Right")? The only one I would defend to the death is "Praise to the Man." Regardless of what happens, I will be singing that with gusto (and defiance, if need be) until the day I die. Yes. I forgot about those two. Outta here. Praise to the Man is good but the tune is also borrowed....Scotland the Brave. Works well with bagpipes. Some say this was the original tune... https://www.ccel.org/ccel/walker/harmony/files/hymn/Star_in_the_East.htmlb If we’re nixing patriotic songs, Be Still My Soul must go. I’ve performed Sibelius’s orchestral work Finlandia from which it was adapted several times. To me the words just don’t go with the contours of the tune... thy si-iide. Quote The music made an even deeper impact later in the year, when four of the parts, including “Finland awakes”, were performed again in concert. “Finland awakes” soon came to be in great demand as a separate concert piece and Sibelius revised it in the following year, giving it the title Finlandia, as suggested in a letter from an anonymous admirer. (Sibelius later came into closer contact with this fan, Axel Carpelan, who became an indefatigable supporter and a self-appointed fund-raiser.) Finlandia became a symbol of Finnish nationalism. While Finland was still a Grand Duchy under Russia performances within the empire had to take place under the covert title of “Impromptu”. In Finland the Finlandia Hymn was not sung until Finnish words for it were written by the opera singer Wäinö Sola in 1937. After the Russian aggression against Finland in 1939 (The Winter War) the Finnish poet V.A. Koskenniemi supplied a new text, the one that has been used ever since. Sibelius arranged the Hymn for mixed choir as late as 1948. Finland, behold, thy daylight now is dawning, the threat of night has now been driven away. The skylark calls across the light of morning, the blue of heaven lets it have its way, and now the day the powers of night is scorning: thy daylight dawns, O Finland of ours! Finland, arise, and raise towards the highest thy head now crowned with mighty memory. Finland, arise, for to the world thou criest that thou hast thrown off thy slavery, beneath oppression´s yoke thou never liest. Thy morning´s come, O Finland of ours! https://finland.fi/arts-culture/finlandia-by-jean-sibelius/ It used to be common practice to use or borrow an existing tune for a hymn text. We can exchange tunes in our hymn book if they match meters. For example, Now Let Us a rejoice and The Spirit of God texts can be sung to each other’s tunes....but tunes borrowed from other sources often come with baggage. Of course with you I’m preaching to the choir (director). 😊 Edited January 28, 2020 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Perfect solution, but why sing ANY national anthems in church? Does it lead us toward a unified church culture that transcends nationalism? Or is it divisive? That was exactly my reason for bringing up the Polish anthem. Hopefully it gets folks to think about it Because each country has times of celebration for which such music is appropriate. I don’t think it is divise for members to sing the anthems of their own countries.
Bernard Gui Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Rain said: I've never noticed to sing it in unison, but unless I was in choir I wouldn't worry about it. You can sing harmony without it being written. I discovered years ago I wasn't singing the alto part in "Come, Come Ye Saints" years ago. Too many years in Festival of the American West where the alto was different. It didn't sound bad so I continued. Now days, I've naturally done little bits of both. I like the hymns that are in unison because I can mess with the harmonies when I play them on the organ. Can’t do that when the congregation is singing four part harmony. My son Abogadissimo thinks that’s how the highly ornamented music of the Baroque period got started....Church organists got bored with playing the same tunes and harmonies over and over, so they started adding little things here and there, and then it mushroomed. Sounds likely to me. I get that urge all the time. Edited January 28, 2020 by Bernard Gui
Calm Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I don’t think it is divise for members to sing the anthems of their own countries. It is if you are singing others though! I wonder how many nonAmerican wards along the border end up singing American patriotic songs in July. Bet fewer than there used to be. Edited January 28, 2020 by Calm
Bernard Gui Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Tacenda said: They should put different nationalities' music in. Songs that reflect many of the members in the church. Off the top of my head I can think of a song that hit me hard and gave me the feel goods, or the spirit during a visit from the Baptist Calvary Church's choir to our stake during Christmas time. Our stake president did this probably three years in a row that I remember. Each ward had their choirs sing as well. The song was, "Go Tell It On the Mountain". I'll never forget standing up and clapping to that song, along with the whole stake and our stake presidency swaying and clapping up on the stand. This took place in the stake center, in the chapel and cultural hall and the room was so full we also sat on the stage. It was so memorable. I hope the hymns have more spirited music, and wouldn't that make Gladys Knight happy! I think we should develop our own style of hymnody not derived or imitative of other religions and cultures. The greatest body of superior religious music is that of the Catholic Church and JS Bach,, but we do not use any of it. Edited January 28, 2020 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Calm said: It is if you are singing others though! I wonder how many nonAmerican wards along the border end up singing American patriotic songs in July. Bet fewer than there used to be. And here I was thinking the big word of today is inclusivity! But when in Rome...... Although I have no problem singing O Canada with my friends from the North. Eh? Edited January 28, 2020 by Bernard Gui 1
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Do you ever praise your children for doing well in school? HERESY! I don't tell, mine that they have ascended to heaven as Jesus was, communing with Jehovah, mingling with Gods, and planning strategies for their brethren so that traitors and tyrants now fight them in vain. Seems to me that's a pretty false analogy. Seems to me also that lately the traitors and tyrants are doing pretty well and the church is hunkering down, trying to save the youth. Maybe Joseph is napping? Edited January 28, 2020 by mfbukowski
Stargazer Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 11 hours ago, RevTestament said: 341 God Save the King - really? I don't want no earthly king - esp Obama... or Trump...for that matter. That's in there as a patriotic song for members living in the British Commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia, etc). It has just as much (or as little) place as 338 America the Beautiful, 339 My Country, 'Tis of Thee (same melody as God Save the King, btw), and 340 The Star Spangled Banner. If GSK goes, so should the others. And I presume that since we're going to be having an international hymn book (all languages having the same hymns), these patriotic songs will be left out anyway. Unless they want to include a patriotic song for each country/language? Which would be crazy, since the Spanish language version would have to feature something like 20 national anthems.
Stargazer Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: Didn't I say that? Just in a slightly different way? I guess you are saying 341 is in the hymnal for the benefit of our members in England. Well, I don't ever intend on singing it... no offence to you or our English members. Not that I don't like the Queen. She has been a rather remarkable person, but of course she doesn't hold any power anymore, but is just a symbol. That is actually not strictly true. She still has power, she just rarely exercises it. Here's an interesting video which describes it: What Powers Does the Queen of England Actually Have?
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