whistleblower on Church finances

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Of course there is a plan for future use of it, whatever the need might be.  I think most members will agree it is not immoral to not disclose the details. They completely trust church leadership to do what's right about it. The Church has let the members know that they have been making investments with some of the money for future use. This no surprise to most members. 
 

The Lord has commanded his Church to prepare to meet and successfully overcome the challenges and calamities of the last days by “standing independent above every creature beneath the celestial world.” As we approach the Second Coming, the nations of the world are going to collapse under the weight of their own ripening iniquity. Therefore, in order for the Church to remain intact, united, and able to provide temporally for its own, there must be a tremendous amount of capital and resources available in order for the Church to be able acquire what’s needed to be self-sufficient and stand independent from the unstable, unreliable and hostile governmental and economic systems of a failing world that’s under the decree of divine condemnation. Like it or not, it’s going to take a tremendous amount of money and capital to build the Latter-Day Zion that will make it possible for the Lord’s people to survive temporally that they might meet the Lord at his coming, and thereafter be prepared and equipped to rule and rebuild a fallen world destroyed by the judgements of God. 

Those who are complaining about our leaders’ wise temporal preparations for the inevitable tribulations of the last days don’t know what they’re talking about.

Edited December 18, 2019 by teddyaware

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Are we speaking about charitable private trusts?

So the Church is not "charitable."  That's your position?

Certainly not. It’s a church not a charity. Above provided for reference. Both charities and churches are tax exempt. 

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And your say-so doesn't make the Church's stewardship of its finances "wrong"

Excuse me? I’m pretty sure I’m the expert on my views of right and wrong. 

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This is just conclusory, because-I-say-so stuff.

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

And since when is there a nexus between morality and "disclosure?"  What does that even mean?  Disclosure of what?  To whom?

Maybe because without it there can be no informed consent?

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As I predicted just a few hours ago: "I suspect the IRS will make a finding that the Church does indeed comply with the laws governing its finances.  The discussion will then shift from 'The Church broke the law!' to oh-so-more-nebulous grumbling from armchair quarterbacks about what the Church should do (which can best be defined as 'something vague, but definitely more than the Church is doing now, 'cuz the Church is bad')."

Boy, you are proving me right.

Dude I’ve been consistent from post one on this thread. I’ve never deviated from calling the church immoral for hoarding funds and have stated multiple times it is unlikely they broke any laws. May want to get off your self congratulatory victory lap. 

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Anyhoo, I am curious about your "hoard money" statement.  To what illicit purpose does the Church do this, in your view?  Where is the misconduct?

You want to continue the conversation after the above? No thanks.

 

 

 

 

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Here is a 2018 article posted on the church website about the financial affairs of the church. Included is the following:

Why do you think the church included such a misleading and out of date quote? 

I don't know, but I think most people are smart enough to ignore the bolded part at the end, knowing that it was 35 years ago. The main point of what he was saying is that the church has been making investments since the early years of the church.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I don't know, but I think most people are smart enough to ignore the bolded part at the end, knowing that it was 35 years ago. The main point of what he was saying is that the church has been making investments since the early years of the church.

BS. The part about it being relatively small could easily have been cut. It’s a separate part of the quote. It serves no purpose except to downplay the churches assets. 

[Meadowchik]

29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Certainly not. It’s a church not a charity. Above provided for reference. Both charities and churches are tax exempt. 

Excuse me? I’m pretty sure I’m the expert on my views of right and wrong. 

Maybe because without it there can be no informed consent?

Dude I’ve been consistent from post one on this thread. I’ve never deviated from calling the church immoral for hoarding funds and have stated multiple times it is unlikely they broke any laws. May want to get off your self congratulatory victory lap. 

You want to continue the conversation after the above? No thanks.

 

 

 

 

Hoarding on this level is reminiscent of the Egyptian elect who buried themselves with pomp, treasure, and companions, moth and dust corrupting all.

If there is a place for a "rainy-day fund," let it be analogous to the individual. Allow for the faithful to withhold payment in lieu of their own "rainy-day funds," be as transparent as members who declare their tithes and open their pantry doors and share their balance sheets to justify need to relief society presidents and bishoprics. 

[SteveO]

22 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Hoarding on this level is reminiscent of the Egyptian elect who buried themselves with pomp, treasure, and companions, moth and dust corrupting all.

Hoarding on this level is reminiscent of the Egyptian elect who followed the counsel of Joseph the Seer, and saved their excess during the seven years of plenty, to survive the seven years of lean.

 

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Hoarding on this level is reminiscent of the Egyptian elect who followed the counsel of Joseph the Seer, and saved their excess during the seven years of plenty, to survive the seven years of lean.

 

No, that is magnitudes less.

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

No, that is magnitudes less.

Well if you account for inflation...

 

🙄

Edited December 18, 2019 by SteveO

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The Lord has commanded his Church to prepare to meet and successfully overcome the challenges and calamities of the last days by “standing independent above every creature beneath the celestial world.” As we approach the Second Coming, the nations of the world are going to collapse under the weight of their own ripening iniquity. Therefore, in order for the Church to remain intact, united, and able to provide temporally for its own, there must be a tremendous amount of capital and resources available in order for the Church to be able acquire what’s needed to be self-sufficient and stand independent from the unstable, unreliable and hostile governmental and economic systems of a failing world that’s under the decree of divine condemnation. Like it or not, it’s going to take a tremendous amount of money and capital to build the Latter-Day Zion that will make it possible for the Lord’s people to survive temporally that they might meet the Lord at his coming, and thereafter be prepared and equipped to rule and rebuild a fallen world destroyed by the judgements of God. 

Those who are complaining about our leaders’ wise temporal preparations for the inevitable tribulations of the last days don’t know what they’re talking about.

Exactly.  The church has a lot of responsibilities to do before Christ come.  Most other churches either don't care or don't know what to do.  They live moment by moment.  The Church has had fairly detailed view of last days events before Christ comes again.  Ever since I was a teenager I have believed this stuff would happen but I never understood why. The why is a secondary, academic exercise and not central in the message of the prophets and scriptures.  All that matters is XYZ will happen.  If one looks at what the scientists say about climate change, it checks a lot of the boxes. 

Prophets have said cities would be destroyed by the seas going over their bounds.  Climate scientists say the oceans will flood major cities worldwide.  Check. 

Prophets have said wars will engulf all nations.  Climate scientists say that wars will occur over water and other resources.   Refugee flows as people flee one problem will create problems in the countries they go to and probably will cause many of those nations to collapse.  The Syrian war started in part because of drought.  So check that box. 

Plagues and other natural disasters more intense and frequent come with climate change.  Prophets have said the same thing.  Check.

The more climate scientists speak, the more the UN makes claims, the more they validate LDS last days views on a number of key points.  Stock piling money and other things is a wise course to take.  If people don't believe last days LDS teachings, then listen to the climate scientists.  If they listen to the climate scientists, they will find themselves accepting more and more of LDS last days views.  They can't run from it.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by carbon dioxide

[MorningStar]

14 hours ago, juliann said:

I had several reactions to this story including,

1. Wondering how Mormonleaks is feeling right now.

2. Amazement that there is this much money and not even a hint that leaders profited from it. 

3. In contrast to #3, a "whistleblower" who does expect to profit. 

4. No apparent awareness that the Church is entering into an era where much of the population is from impoverished developing countries.

5. The usual brain dead talking points about how much the church spends on charity without accounting for very expensive but volunteer services that it organizes. 

My thoughts exactly! For this to be greed, wouldn't someone have to be benefitting from the greed? And yes, with more members joining in third world countries, it will be the tithing of first world countries that fund their chapels, temples, materials, etc.. 

I feel like I have to sit down with my kids now and explain this. Since when do we give to the church with the expectation that it will all be spent on charitable giving? 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Hoarding on this level is reminiscent of the Egyptian elect who buried themselves with pomp, treasure, and companions, moth and dust corrupting all.

If there is a place for a "rainy-day fund," let it be analogous to the individual. Allow for the faithful to withhold payment in lieu of their own "rainy-day funds," be as transparent as members who declare their tithes and open their pantry doors and share their balance sheets to justify need to relief society presidents and bishoprics. 

Not how it worked with bishops I’ve seen. Just recently the Church opened its pantry doors and kept one my sons afloat during a lengthy period of underemployment. I am so grateful for that. I was able to do that for members when I served as a bishop. I am grateful for that, too.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MorningStar said:

it will be the tithing of first world countries that fund their chapels, temples, materials, etc.. 

Which in my experience most members are very excited about being given the privilege to do so.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not how it worked with bishops I’ve seen. Just recently the Church opened its pantry doors and kept one my sons afloat during a lengthy period of underemployment. I am so grateful for that. I was able to do that for members when I served as a bishop. I am grateful for that, too.

The Pathway Program for higher education available wherever there are enough to suatain it is a fantastic method to teach people the ability "to fish" for themselves and their families.  Looks like there is room for expansion as tech provides more flexibility as well.

There are so many things the Church is doing that to try and color the Church as sitting on a hoard of money because a certain percentage of income is set aside and saved (a percentage we have no clue on so how to judge fairly) seems like ignoring putting together a 1000 piece puzzle because one is tightly focused on finishing a color of about 50 pieces because it looks so interesting and just happens to be the easiest section to reach.

Much of the problem is a result of the Church not sharing details, such as might tell us what percentage of yearly income is one billion.  It might be just as likely the percentages make the Church look like more a miser than less.  There may be significant cost to being more transparent...people who don't understand or value the Church's choice of saving practices or something may pull their donations of any type now a rather high number has been revealed. If this is one of many, it will take some adjustment...and change in culture.

Given the easy access to news sources...if you can't find one that sees it as a worthwhile topic, send an email off to a few more, one will eventually take and then others will follow...the tech that makes it easy to copy documents and the current mentality of less loyalty to one's employer (wasn't always a good thing if the company didn't deserve it), I have little doubt this is something that will be ongoing.  What might stop it is if Nielsen (or others who follow) didn't really plan for a change of career...or maybe he has a great pension from the Church to live off of now?  (How old is he?)  If he ends up financially struggling if he can't make a living out of being a professional antiMormon, can't get a job in his field (the Internet giveth, the Internet taketh away) or any job that needs trust between him and his employer in order for him to progress, the role of Mormon bounty hunter might drop drastically as reports of struggling happen.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

https://kutv.com/news/local/whistleblowers-brother-insist-irs-complaint-was-not-attack-on-latter-day-saint-church

Quote

The man who helped file an IRS whistleblower complaint against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says it was not done with the intent of attacking the Church.

Quote

Lars Nielsen said it was a difficult decision for his brother to bring his claims to the IRS.

“David Nielsen is a full member of the Mormon church. He pays his tithes, he goes to church, and he is a temple recommend-carrying member of the Church," Nielsen said.

Quote

Nielsen resigned from Ensign Peak in late August 2019. In a letter, according to the Washington Post, Nielsen wrote that his employment with the organization had become “unworkable” because his wife and children had left the church and wanted him to follow. 

https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/david-nielsen/

Edited December 18, 2019 by Calm

[gopher]

I haven't followed the story closely, but I have some whistleblowing too.  In a recent welfare training I recently attended, we were told by the storehouse director that they give you what you asked for, not what they think you need.  If you want four loaves of bread, you get four loaves of bread even if they think two loaves should be enough.

That's just one example of the reckless spending by the church that explains why they are 100 billion dollars in debt as alleged by the article in the WP.

[Analytics]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

There are so many things the Church is doing that to try and color the Church as sitting on a hoard of money because a certain percentage of income is set aside and saved (a percentage we have no clue on so how to judge fairly) seems like ignoring putting together a 1000 piece puzzle because one is tightly focused on finishing a color of about 50 pieces because it looks so interesting and just happens to be the easiest section to reach.

The senior portfolio manager/whistle blower claims that every year, about 14% of tithing, or about $1 Billion a year, is sent of to Ensign Peak Advisors where it is invested in stocks, bonds, derivatives, and real estate. The financial instruments have accumulated with interest to a value of about $100 Billion. To put this in perspective, if this was distributed equally to the various wards or branches of the church, each word or branch would get something like $3.5 million. The land might be worth something on the order of $20 Billion. This portfolio generates about $7 Billion in interest every year, 100% of which is simply reinvested. In 22 years, this has never spent a dime of this money for any charitable purposes.

This is in addition to how much the Church itself and its various legal entities have in their own rainy day funds.

Given that Ensign Peak Advisors is a tax-exempt 501C3 charity, the fact that it hoards so much money without ever spending a single dime on charity seems to run afoul of IRS regulations. If it wants to hoard money that's fine, but its investment income should be taxed just as every other individual or corporation's investment income is taxed. That is the argument.

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Much of the problem is a result of the Church not sharing details, such as might tell us what percentage of yearly income is one billion.

Agreed. While I have my own wonky views on capital allocation, my only real complaint about the Church is the lack of transparency. Members ought to know what is being done with the money, and the Church ought to know it is being watched.

That said, the whistle blower claims that all of the church's operations (professional staff, buildings, temples, maintenance, BYU, CES, mission overhead, etc) costs about $6 billion a year. The Church makes about $14 billion a year: roughly $7 billion a year in tithing and another $7 billion a year in investment returns. So every year, it saves about 53% of its total income. \

3 hours ago, Calm said:

What might stop it is if Nielsen (or others who follow) didn't really plan for a change of career...or maybe he has a great pension from the Church to live off of now?  (How old is he?)  If he ends up financially struggling if he can't make a living out of being a professional antiMormon, can't get a job in his field (the Internet giveth, the Internet taketh away) or any job that needs trust between him and his employer in order for him to progress, the role of Mormon bounty hunter might drop drastically as reports of struggling happen.

Lars Nielsen has an MBA and PhD from Harvard, and in all likelihood has an income in the mid-6 figures. David's job for the church paid less than a third of what he could have made in the private sector doing the same thing. They will both be okay. If the IRS agrees with them, revokes Ensign Peak Advisor's tax exempt status, makes it pay taxes on its investment income, and gives Nielsen 15% of the cut as a bounty, he could wind up with a check for over $2 billion. Who would have imagined being an anti-Mormon could be that lucrative? 

In any case, I'm sure they will do fine, financially.

[Analytics]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Exactly.  The church has a lot of responsibilities to do before Christ come.  Most other churches either don't care or don't know what to do.  They live moment by moment.  The Church has had fairly detailed view of last days events before Christ comes again.  Ever since I was a teenager I have believed this stuff would happen but I never understood why. The why is a secondary, academic exercise and not central in the message of the prophets and scriptures.  All that matters is XYZ will happen.  If one looks at what the scientists say about climate change, it checks a lot of the boxes. 

Prophets have said cities would be destroyed by the seas going over their bounds.  Climate scientists say the oceans will flood major cities worldwide.  Check. 

Prophets have said wars will engulf all nations.  Climate scientists say that wars will occur over water and other resources.   Refugee flows as people flee one problem will create problems in the countries they go to and probably will cause many of those nations to collapse.  The Syrian war started in part because of drought.  So check that box. 

Plagues and other natural disasters more intense and frequent come with climate change.  Prophets have said the same thing.  Check...

I'm not following your logic here. It is normally considered wise financial management to buy low and sell high. If wars engage all nations and cities burn and the cataclysms of the book of Revelation all take place, companies will go bankrupt and their stocks and bonds will become worthless. If the polar ice caps completely melt Florida will be under 300 feet of water. What will be the value in owning 2% of the sea floor?

Ensign Peak Advisors investment strategy seems to be based on Warren-Buffett-style unbridled optimism in the future of the American economy. If you think the world is coming to an end you hoard guns, bullets, wheat, land, etc. You don't buy $100 billion of stocks and bonds in blue-chip companies.

[Metis_LDS]

58 minutes ago, gopher said:

I haven't followed the story closely, but I have some whistleblowing too.  In a recent welfare training I recently attended, we were told by the storehouse director that they give you what you asked for, not what they think you need.  If you want four loaves of bread, you get four loaves of bread even if they think two loaves should be enough.

That's just one example of the reckless spending by the church that explains why they are 100 billion dollars in debt as alleged by the article in the WP.

The Gopher rules!!!,  I was a ward clerk and then 1st council in Canada for many years.  The number of cheques that I counter signed for members welfare was amazing.  The welfare program was not operational in the area so we had a voucher system with a grocery store.  I would see that the store got paid after returning the vouchers back to the Church.  Again the amount of money involved would give you pause.  I never saw any member of the Church in Canada be homeless or go hungry or be without electricity and heat.

[smac97]

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Dude I’ve been consistent from post one on this thread. I’ve never deviated from calling the church immoral for hoarding funds and have stated multiple times it is unlikely they broke any laws. May want to get off your self congratulatory victory lap. 

The "victory lap" was intended to be ironic.  I guess I failed.

How hard is it to predict a pattern we've seen over and over?  Not very.  Nothing to brag about, certainly.

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You want to continue the conversation after the above? No thanks.

I guess I got carried away.  My apologies.

So, back to the topic: Anyhoo, I am curious about your "hoard money" statement.  To what illicit purpose does the Church do this, in your view?  Where is the misconduct?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, MorningStar said:

My thoughts exactly! For this to be greed, wouldn't someone have to be benefitting from the greed? And yes, with more members joining in third world countries, it will be the tithing of first world countries that fund their chapels, temples, materials, etc.. 

I feel like I have to sit down with my kids now and explain this. Since when do we give to the church with the expectation that it will all be spent on charitable giving? 

Then perhaps it doesn't fall under the guideline of being a tax exempt entity, or am I wrong on that? This is a tough subject, indeed.

[provoman]

45 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Then perhaps it doesn't fall under the guideline of being a tax exempt entity, or am I wrong on that? This is a tough subject, indeed.

Have you considered that the whistle-blower and his brother used misleading tactics?

Fact: The whistle blower has a degree in finance from BYU and a MBA from UCLA

Fact: The whistleblower reported that EPA has not made charitable distributions in X number of years.

(Do the brothers cite a law/code/or regulation that establishes that EPA is required to make distributions?)

Fact: The author of a Forbes.com article informed that EPA is not required to make distributions.

 

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, provoman said:

Have you considered that the whistle-blower and his brother used misleading tactics?

Fact: The whistle blower has a degree in finance from BYU and a MBA from UCLA

Fact: The whistleblower reported that EPA has not made charitable distributions in X number of years.

(Do the brothers cite a law/code/or regulation that establishes that EPA is required to make distributions?)

Fact: The author of a Forbes.com article informed that EPA is not required to make distributions.

 

Provo, I don't quite understand, and I only have a couple of years of colleges total. LDS Business College, U of U, and a tech college, haha. Do you have a link to back up the author of the Forbes.com article. 

Many of my friends, are very glad the church has this kind of money, and mentioning it on FB. I'm glad too, until I remember, the percentage of what the church does give. Some put it at .0004? That's one I've seen out in the bloggernacle, in the context of how much is taken in. 

[mnn727]

On 12/16/2019 at 10:48 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And how does saving for the second coming work? Like governments are failing, the world is dying and the church’s portfolio is going to be worth what exactly!?

The so-called" Whistle bower is the only person saying that its being saved for the 2nd coming - you may safely disregard it and put in place GBH's statement on saving for hard times.

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

I haven't followed the story closely, but I have some whistleblowing too.  In a recent welfare training I recently attended, we were told by the storehouse director that they give you what you asked for, not what they think you need.  If you want four loaves of bread, you get four loaves of bread even if they think two loaves should be enough.

That's just one example of the reckless spending by the church that explains why they are 100 billion dollars in debt as alleged by the article in the WP.

we have a couple in our ward, totally inactive, never seen them before-they get 1400 clams a month on food from the storehouse

[mnn727]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

Many of my friends, are very glad the church has this kind of money, and mentioning it on FB. I'm glad too, until I remember, the percentage of what the church does give. Some put it at .0004? That's one I've seen out in the bloggernacle, in the context of how much is taken in. 

.0004 That's a false number also.It was based on a statement given by a GA about an amount given, but the GA was not talking about total humanitarian help given at the time.