MustardSeed Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 It seems to be popular here, just wondering if it’s as effective as it is popular or if it’s just a way of letting off steam. Recently someone offered a fresh point of view that allowed me to open my heart and mind to a new way of thinking...I might try to identify the elements that made it so. Or the absent elements, as it were. At any rate, it *felt* good. I quite enjoy conversation that invites new thought. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 1 minute ago, MustardSeed said: It seems to be popular here, just wondering if it’s as effective as it is popular or if it’s just a way of letting off steam. Recently someone offered a fresh point of view that allowed me to open my heart and mind to a new way of thinking...I might try to identify the elements that made it so. Or the absent elements, as it were. At any rate, it *felt* good. I quite enjoy conversation that invites new thought. Absolutely. About almost everything!
MustardSeed Posted February 23, 2019 Author Posted February 23, 2019 1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Absolutely. About almost everything! Amazing! such openness.
Popular Post CA Steve Posted February 23, 2019 Popular Post Posted February 23, 2019 I have observed an interesting process in my own thinking when it comes to debate. I find the more I am involved directly in the debate, the less likely I am to change my own opinion. Those debates (or threads if we are talking about this forum) in which I just follow along seem to have a much better chance of influencing my views than those in which I participate directly. I think this has to do with the fact that participation usually requires establishing a position, the defense of which ends up being the priority in the debate. So instead of trying to understand opposing view points, I find myself trying to disprove them. I should read more & type less. 9
MustardSeed Posted February 23, 2019 Author Posted February 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I have observed an interesting process in my own thinking when it comes to debate. I find the more I am involved directly in the debate, the less likely I am to change my own opinion. Those debates (or threads if we are talking about this forum) in which I just follow along seem to have a much better chance of influencing my views than those in which I participate directly. I think this has to do with the fact that participation usually requires establishing a position, the defense of which ends up being the priority in the debate. So instead of trying to understand opposing view points, I find myself trying to disprove them. I should read more & type less. What a great insight! Along the same lines, I think when picking a side and debating I tend to feel the need to save face. I’m going to guess I’m not alone there.
DBMormon Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 Listening to others differing perspectives has changed my mind. Debate is a loaded term but I can say hearing Dehlin interview Givens and also his interview with Bushman both made a huge shift with me. Sam Harris vs Jordan Peterson in Vancouver affected me. Joe Rogan's podcast with various people who have disagreed has had an impact. Even recently Jim Bennett in part 4 of our interview acknowledged that part 3 changed his perspective on the Book of Abraham. It is certainly easier as an observer to a disagreeing conversation than a participant.
LoudmouthMormon Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 I have never been in a debate that has changed my mind (except with my wife, where I change it often). That said, watching others debate has been one of the major building blocks of my testimony. Before I became a loudmouth poster, I spent a good 2-3 years lurking and watching critic and faithful clash on various boards. I watched, read, researched, decided for myself who had the stronger argument and the weaker one. So yeah, I go into debates with the understanding that neither party will budge a dang inch in our opinions, but a witness to the exchange might be greatly impacted. Honestly, the notion helps me be less of a jerkwad. Sometimes. 1
Popular Post Calm Posted February 23, 2019 Popular Post Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, DBMormon said: Even recently Jim Bennett in part 4 of our interview acknowledged that part 3 changed his perspective on the Book of Abraham After reading Bennett's response to your postpodcast narrative, I have my doubts about the accuracy of your paraphrases of his positions. https://canonizer.com/blog/ces-reply-conversations-with-bill-reel/ And slipping this into an answer that is supposed to be you sharing instances of changing your mind.... Got a time stamp for that? You can answer this CFR in the podcast thread to avoid taking this off topic. Edited February 23, 2019 by Calm 6
provoman Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: It seems to be popular here, just wondering if it’s as effective as it is popular or if it’s just a way of letting off steam. Recently someone offered a fresh point of view that allowed me to open my heart and mind to a new way of thinking...I might try to identify the elements that made it so. Or the absent elements, as it were. At any rate, it *felt* good. I quite enjoy conversation that invites new thought. debate has changed my opinion. It was quite humorous to me when it happened, because the change was like a light switch.
bluebell Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 I don't know if debating topics has ever changed my opinion, but reading the debates of others definitely has. At least until each side starts getting nit-picky and ***-for-tat, then I just stop following along.
MustardSeed Posted February 24, 2019 Author Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't know if debating topics has ever changed my opinion, but reading the debates of others definitely has. At least until each side starts getting nit-picky and ***-for-tat, then I just stop following along. I lose respect for *** tat rudeness and closed mindedness, and often times those elements will sway me to the other side when observing a debate. Ego is a beast that doesn’t hide well. Most of the time I find debate mostly emotion based and closed minded. I learn so much more when people validate each other’s valid points, whether that’s someone else’s debate or my own. Edited February 24, 2019 by MustardSeed 1
bsjkki Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 3 hours ago, CA Steve said: I have observed an interesting process in my own thinking when it comes to debate. I find the more I am involved directly in the debate, the less likely I am to change my own opinion. Those debates (or threads if we are talking about this forum) in which I just follow along seem to have a much better chance of influencing my views than those in which I participate directly. I think this has to do with the fact that participation usually requires establishing a position, the defense of which ends up being the priority in the debate. So instead of trying to understand opposing view points, I find myself trying to disprove them. I should read more & type less. I agree with this. When I am involved in the debate, I am taking a position. When I am reading/watching/researching...that is when I am more open minded. Most of the 'major' changes in opinion I have experienced have come due to trauma, personal experiences or overwhelming statistics. Sometimes, on this board, I start a debate or throw out a topic to see where it goes. Sometimes, I start a thread with a news item or controversy and people assume I am taking a certain position but I am really just waiting to see the pro and con arguments that follow. I am actually seeking more educated opinions on something I am not sure of. Other times, I have a definite opinion and will debate and argue it not to convince those I am debating with, but for those who are seeking a thoroughly debated issue with all the different angles. A google search on a controversial topic is how I found this board and I enjoyed reading church controversies/doctrine/history. On this board, they are mostly debated in a respectful way that has helped me understand these topics better. In my life, I don't see a lot of people outside my family and the members of my ward. My voice here goes much further then it would over go in real life. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 5 hours ago, MustardSeed said: It seems to be popular here, just wondering if it’s as effective as it is popular or if it’s just a way of letting off steam. Recently someone offered a fresh point of view that allowed me to open my heart and mind to a new way of thinking...I might try to identify the elements that made it so. Or the absent elements, as it were. At any rate, it *felt* good. I quite enjoy conversation that invites new thought. Do you mean debate on <any> subject or strictly debate on gospel/Church topics?
MustardSeed Posted February 24, 2019 Author Posted February 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Do you mean debate on <any> subject or strictly debate on gospel/Church topics? Any topic
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 Just now, MustardSeed said: Any topic OK, I’ll play. I have fervently believed throughout my life that our nation’s membership in NATO (the North Atlantic Treaty Organization) was a good and necessary thing. But recently, as a result of public debate and discourse, I have come to question its efficacy in a post-Cold War world. The Soviet bloc has long since collapsed; do we really need NATO anymore? 1
Duncan Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 We watched "My Cousin Vinny" and the movie is you know......but you think one thing about the case until Vinny the Lawyer and the lovely Marisa Tomei propose an alternative theory and now you think hmmmmmmmmmm, on the other hand.... 2
sunstoned Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 6 hours ago, CA Steve said: I have observed an interesting process in my own thinking when it comes to debate. I find the more I am involved directly in the debate, the less likely I am to change my own opinion. Those debates (or threads if we are talking about this forum) in which I just follow along seem to have a much better chance of influencing my views than those in which I participate directly. I think this has to do with the fact that participation usually requires establishing a position, the defense of which ends up being the priority in the debate. So instead of trying to understand opposing view points, I find myself trying to disprove them. I should read more & type less. This is an excellent observation. As I reflected on your post, I see how this is the case with my own interactions with this and other forums.. When I just sit back and read (as a lurker, that is what I usually do), I tend to reflect more on what is being said. As a participant in a thread, I sometimes find my focus is centered on what I will be saying next, rather than hearing what others are saying. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 4 hours ago, DBMormon said: Listening to others differing perspectives has changed my mind. ..................... Once while serving on a civil jury in Southern California, I went into the Jury Room very unsure of which way to go on the case. The lawyers had been well-matched, and only a few witnesses. The lawyers quickly summed up, and we went in to deliberate. We eventually reached a verdict, but only nine of us agreed -- which was adequate for a civil case. It took a lot of discussion, some of it ill-tempered, but we did what the judge told us to do. The lesson to me was that my fellow jurors helped me see the evidence more clearly. They had heard and recalled things I had not, and I the same on other matters. Together it all became clear. We decided who was guilty, and we set the monetary amount of damages. The upshot: Afterward we were told that our verdict matched the offered out-of-court settlement. The trial could have been avoided if the two parties had simply agreed beforehand. Unfortunately, there were three jurors who had obvious prejudices at the outset which they could not leave behind in the deliberations. One even found it appropriate to use vulgar language. One thinks of "to Kill a Mockingbird." It takes sincerity and an open mind to negotiate the issues effectively.. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Once while serving on a civil jury in Southern California, I went into the Jury Room very unsure of which way to go on the case. The lawyers had been well-matched, and only a few witnesses. The lawyers quickly summed up, and we went in to deliberate. We eventually reached a verdict, but only nine of us agreed -- which was adequate for a civil case. It took a lot of discussion, some of it ill-tempered, but we did what the judge told us to do. The lesson to me was that my fellow jurors helped me see the evidence more clearly. They had heard and recalled things I had not, and I the same on other matters. Together it all became clear. We decided who was guilty, and we set the monetary amount of damages. The upshot: Afterward we were told that our verdict matched the offered out-of-court settlement. The trial could have been avoided if the two parties had simply agreed beforehand. Unfortunately, there were three jurors who had obvious prejudices at the outset which they could not leave behind in the deliberations. One even found it appropriate to use vulgar language. One thinks of "to Kill a Mockingbird." It takes sincerity and an open mind to negotiate the issues effectively.. It puts me more in mind of “Twelve Angry Men.” 1
CAS Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 8 hours ago, MustardSeed said: It seems to be popular here, just wondering if it’s as effective as it is popular or if it’s just a way of letting off steam. Recently someone offered a fresh point of view that allowed me to open my heart and mind to a new way of thinking...I might try to identify the elements that made it so. Or the absent elements, as it were. At any rate, it *felt* good. I quite enjoy conversation that invites new thought. I not only have never had my mind changed I don't believe I have actually ever learned anything. Especially when people are trying (my perception) to talk over my intelligence level, because I figure they are talking from a manual and do not actually have command of what they are writing because if they did they would be able to express themselves in terms anyone could follow without a full week of lectures. Smart people (or not) who want to SOUND smart turn most people off. Taking the time to make your point make sense to everyone is a valuable leadership skill and it wins people over to concepts they might not otherwise consider. I have however let off some significant steam in debating, I completely avoid that now, because as I mentioned I don't get any knowledge that way and don't gain any friends, just enemies.
RevTestament Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 20 hours ago, MustardSeed said: It seems to be popular here, just wondering if it’s as effective as it is popular or if it’s just a way of letting off steam. Recently someone offered a fresh point of view that allowed me to open my heart and mind to a new way of thinking...I might try to identify the elements that made it so. Or the absent elements, as it were. At any rate, it *felt* good. I quite enjoy conversation that invites new thought. i seem to feel that one of my "gifts" is recognizing truth - I am not always so good at coming up with it myself - but then I think most truth has been bantered about before over the course of the last 6000 years of history. Anyway, I feel I recognize truth when I see it/hear it. So to that extent I enjoy debate. Reading the viewpoints and opinions of others is a large part of adopting my viewpoints and areas of study. For instance I used to frequent a forum called TOL. A Christian minister which also frequented that forum posted that the Son and the Father have a covenantal relationship. It seemed like I already knew that, but just hadn't thought about it in those words, but he was exactly right. Joseph Smith said a lot of things that just struck me as exactly right. He wasn't formally debating, but he may as well have been, because he was presenting his view of the gospel, and why he was right, and then sometimes he would answer questions - much like Paul of the NT did. Sometimes this involves debating with someone else. I have learned a lot from people here. I may not always agree with them, but that I believe helps my learning process - to examine why I disagree with someone. If I don't have a good reason, maybe my opinion needs changing. Debating with civility, and temperance is at least part of what this site is about, and I am glad for it. I always try to be open to new points of view - that is largely the way I learn from others.
ALarson Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, CAS said: I not only have never had my mind changed I don't believe I have actually ever learned anything. 😲 Why are you here then? So far, you refuse to really engage in a real, honest discussion regarding anything specific (from what I have seen). I'm honestly wondering and would love to hear what brought you to this forum? Edited February 24, 2019 by ALarson 1
The Nehor Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 There are cases where reading about a topic has changed my mind but this almost never happens in a debate format (formal or informal).
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, The Nehor said: There are cases where reading about a topic has changed my mind but this almost never happens in a debate format (formal or informal). Never happens for you or never happens for anyone?
3DOP Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, ALarson said: 😲 Why are you here then? So far, you refuse to really engage in a real, honest discussion regarding anything specific (from what I have seen). I'm honestly wondering and would love to hear what brought you to this forum? I think you are being a little rough on the newbie. So far? CAS has made 32 posts after joining less than two weeks ago. I have been here since 2004 and can't believe anybody here changes their mind or learns something new every two weeks. What about you? How often do you learn something new or change your mind here? Surely not so rapidly as you seem to expect from CAS. To my recollection, I have changed my mind...at least once...but it was only recently, after fifteen years of misunderstanding something. Is the only legitimate purpose of being here to find out what we are wrong about? Is there not a legitimate place here for those who are enthused about what we think is true? That said, give anyone here a few decades...there will be some learning and mind changing. Besides...I am a little homesick and want to defend my fellow (for now) Washingtonian. Edited February 24, 2019 by 3DOP 4
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