JulieM Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, 3DOP said: I think you are being a little rough on the newbie. So far? CAS has made 32 posts after joining less than two weeks ago. You’ve probably missed where CAS has posted some very definite statements and then disappeared from threads when asked for some specific examples to back up what he posted. I get that he’s new, but it was nicely explained that he should be ready to engage and discuss. So far, he’s been unwilling to do that even though many have asked.
CA Steve Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, 3DOP said: dI think you are being a little rough on the newbie. So far? CAS has made 32 posts after joining less than two weeks ago. I have been here since 2004 and can't believe anybody here changes their mind or learns something new every two weeks. What about you? How often do you learn something new or change your mind here? Surely not so rapidly as you seem to expect from CAS. To my recollection, I have changed my mind...at least once...but it was only recently, after fifteen years of misunderstanding something. Is the only legitimate purpose of being here to find out what we are wrong about? Is there not a legitimate place here for those who are enthused about what we think is true? That said, give anyone here a few decades...there will be some learning and mind changing. Besides...I am a little homesick and want to defend my fellow (for now) Washingtonian. I don't know about you but if I just joined a forum and in two weeks time I had made 30+ posts without having learned anything, I would be looking for a new forum. Edited February 24, 2019 by CA Steve 2
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) So here’s an instance of debate-engendered mind changing for me. In 2016, I voted against Donald Trump. But having seen all the Trump Derangement Syndrome on display, including on this board, well, it’s Trump/Pence for me in 2020. By the way, why is there no MAGA emoticon available on this board? Edited February 24, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 3
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, JulieM said: You’ve probably missed where CAS has posted some very definite statements and then disappeared from threads when asked for some specific examples to back up what he posted. I get that he’s new, but it was nicely explained that he should be ready to engage and discuss. So far, he’s been unwilling to do that even though many have asked. You mean refusal to answer a CFR? Like nobody else ever does that here? 🙄
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 14 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I don't know about you but if I just joined a forum and in two weeks time I had made 30+ posts without having learned anything, I would be looking for a new forum. So what have you changed your mind about here in the last two weeks?
JulieM Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You mean refusal to answer a CFR? Like nobody else ever does that here? 🙄 Ha! Right! I haven’t seen anyone get to the point of issuing them a CFR, but close. Then he/she leaves the thread. Edited February 24, 2019 by JulieM
CA Steve Posted February 24, 2019 Posted February 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So what have you changed your mind about here in the last two weeks? I did not say I had changed my mind about anything in the last two weeks, I merely pointed out that it might be reasonable to expect to learn something new when first posting in a new forum. If nothing else CAS might have learned that some people here are going to challenge what he says. But in regards to your question, this thread has made me think about how I react in threads. It has made me realize that I tend to dig in my heels when I post in the thread as opposed to lurking. This is one thing I need to consider when I am posting. Am I just trying to win a point or am I listening to what the other side is saying? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 13 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I did not say I had changed my mind about anything in the last two weeks, I merely pointed out that it might be reasonable to expect to learn something new when first posting in a new forum. If nothing else CAS might have learned that some people here are going to challenge what he says. But in regards to your question, this thread has made me think about how I react in threads. It has made me realize that I tend to dig in my heels when I post in the thread as opposed to lurking. This is one thing I need to consider when I am posting. Am I just trying to win a point or am I listening to what the other side is saying? It’s just not axiomatic to me that one would expect to have one’s mind changed within two weeks of frequenting a message board. Sure, it can and does happen, but all by itself it doesn’t make one person more or less virtuous or wise than another. 2
JulieM Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s just not axiomatic to me that one would expect to have one’s mind changed within two weeks of frequenting a message board. Sure, it can and does happen, but all by itself it doesn’t make one person more or less virtuous or wise than another. I think I learned something on my first thread here. I’ve continued to learn from others on this forum. It’s helped me through some struggling I’ve had and I’m always open to being corrected and learning more. 3
CA Steve Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s just not axiomatic to me that one would expect to have one’s mind changed within two weeks of frequenting a message board. Sure, it can and does happen, but all by itself it doesn’t make one person more or less virtuous or wise than another. I didn't say anthing about expectations to change your mind, though I did provide an example where I did. Here is what CAS said. Quote I not only have never had my mind changed I don't believe I have actually ever learned anything I am responding to his claiming to have not actually learned anything and DCOP's further comment about not having learned anything in the two weeks since he had been here. You keep changing it to "changing his mind." 2
MustardSeed Posted February 25, 2019 Author Posted February 25, 2019 19 hours ago, CAS said: I not only have never had my mind changed I don't believe I have actually ever learned anything. Especially when people are trying (my perception) to talk over my intelligence level, because I figure they are talking from a manual and do not actually have command of what they are writing because if they did they would be able to express themselves in terms anyone could follow without a full week of lectures. Smart people (or not) who want to SOUND smart turn most people off. Taking the time to make your point make sense to everyone is a valuable leadership skill and it wins people over to concepts they might not otherwise consider. I have however let off some significant steam in debating, I completely avoid that now, because as I mentioned I don't get any knowledge that way and don't gain any friends, just enemies. Unless I am reading this wrong, CAS is answering my question by stating that DEBATE has never changed his mind. Further, since I spoke about learning, he goes on to say that DEBATE has never taught him anything. He says that debate invites insecurities and the insecurities are masked by over intellectualizing stuff. Chill, yo.
JulieM Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Unless I am reading this wrong, CAS is answering my question by stating that DEBATE has never changed his mind. Further, since I spoke about learning, he goes on to say that DEBATE has never taught him anything. He says that debate invites insecurities and the insecurities are masked by over intellectualizing stuff. Chill, yo. Well, so far we don’t know since they won’t stay on a thread long enough to even have a debate They’re new so we should cut him some slack though, I agree!
MustardSeed Posted February 25, 2019 Author Posted February 25, 2019 Well I mean you can’t MAKE someone participate. If there are rules around that then I’m in trouble too. I get weary of constant CFR calls. I feel like I have to be so perfectly exact in everything abs sometimes I just wanna talk like I’m sitting over lunch with acquaintances. I’m not following the beef with CAS but in this instance on this thread I think people are looking for a fight. Let it go on this one, imo.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, CA Steve said: I didn't say anthing about expectations to change your mind, though I did provide an example where I did. Here is what CAS said. I am responding to his claiming to have not actually learned anything and DCOP's further comment about not having learned anything in the two weeks since he had been here. You keep changing it to "changing his mind." Maybe he didn’t learn anything here because this is not the fountain of knowledge some would make it out to be. And by the way, isnt the thread title here “Has debate ever changed your mind?”? Edited February 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Well I mean you can’t MAKE someone participate. If there are rules around that then I’m in trouble too. I get weary of constant CFR calls. I feel like I have to be so perfectly exact in everything abs sometimes I just wanna talk like I’m sitting over lunch with acquaintances. I’m not following the beef with CAS but in this instance on this thread I think people are looking for a fight. Let it go on this one, imo. There’s not a thing wrong with expecting someone to back up what he/she asserts with reliable documentation. You get pooled ignorance otherwise. There are ample places on the Internet where one can go for that. Edited February 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 2
MustardSeed Posted February 25, 2019 Author Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: There’s not a thing wrong with expecting someone to back up what he/she asserts with reliable documentation. You get pooled ignorance otherwise. There are ample places on the Internet where one can go for that. I see value in it too. It’s excessive here ****imo***.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I see value in it too. It’s excessive here ****imo***. Opinion noted. And I agree it can be excessive, especially where a CFR is issued not for a claimed fact but for an opinion. When it happens to me, I sometimes respond, “I am the reference for my own opinion.” I say you can counter a person’s opinion with facts — or with a contrasting opinion — but it’s silly to issue a CFR for that person’s opinion. Edited February 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 1
MustardSeed Posted February 25, 2019 Author Posted February 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Opinion noted. And I agree it can be excessive, especially where a CFR is issued not for a claimed fact but for an opinion. When it happens to me, I sometimes respond, “I am the reference for my own opinion.” I say you can counter a person’s opinion with facts, but it’s silly to issue a CFR for that person’s opinion. I’ve just started using stars to accentuate my opinions. It’s annoying but seems to work.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: I’ve just started using stars to accentuate my opinions. It’s annoying but seems to work. Ah, but, you see, it then becomes CFR-able (to coin a term). Oops, disregard. I misread and thought you said “stats,” not “stars.” Edited February 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Gray Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) On 2/23/2019 at 8:38 PM, Scott Lloyd said: OK, I’ll play. I have fervently believed throughout my life that our nation’s membership in NATO (the North Atlantic Treaty Organization) was a good and necessary thing. But recently, as a result of public debate and discourse, I have come to question its efficacy in a post-Cold War world. The Soviet bloc has long since collapsed; do we really need NATO anymore? Considering how much Russia has been attacking us and our allies lately, the answer is yes. Edited February 25, 2019 by Gray
bsjkki Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: Well I mean you can’t MAKE someone participate. If there are rules around that then I’m in trouble too. I get weary of constant CFR calls. I feel like I have to be so perfectly exact in everything abs sometimes I just wanna talk like I’m sitting over lunch with acquaintances. I’m not following the beef with CAS but in this instance on this thread I think people are looking for a fight. Let it go on this one, imo. Just preface items that are opinion and back up factual statements and you can avoid CFR’s. I used to watch “The Good Wife” and there was a judge who made the lawyers start their sentences with, “ in my opinion.” That tends to work for me. In my experience, in my opinion, anecdotal evidence from my life etc..., 2
The Nehor Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Never happens for you or never happens for anyone? I am only for sure about me but maybe others are different. I doubt many are though. If reason ruled we would not be surrounded by astrologers, climate change denier, believers in the Illuminati, proponents of the electric universe theory, flat earthers, and those people who like dead children known as anti-vaxxers. Everyone thinks they are reasonable. Very few are and even those who are have stupidly huge blind spots.
MustardSeed Posted February 25, 2019 Author Posted February 25, 2019 15 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Just preface items that are opinion and back up factual statements and you can avoid CFR’s. I used to watch “The Good Wife” and there was a judge who made the lawyers start their sentences with, “ in my opinion.” That tends to work for me. In my experience, in my opinion, anecdotal evidence from my life etc..., Yes. Annoying though. This ain’t court, just a bunch of nobodies we are, talking stuff.
The Nehor Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: So here’s an instance of debate-engendered mind changing for me. In 2016, I voted against Donald Trump. But having seen all the Trump Derangement Syndrome on display, including on this board, well, it’s Trump/Pence for me in 2020. By the way, why is there no MAGA emoticon available on this board? Voting a certain way to annoy people you do not like. The epitome of reason. 1
Calm Posted February 25, 2019 Posted February 25, 2019 55 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Just preface items that are opinion and back up factual statements and you can avoid CFR’s. I used to watch “The Good Wife” and there was a judge who made the lawyers start their sentences with, “ in my opinion.” That tends to work for me. In my experience, in my opinion, anecdotal evidence from my life etc..., And using "imo" (my preference) is very easy. 1
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