"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto to them to speak".

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I grew up in a Church, a Baptist Church where women were never allowed to speak (other than in Sunday School classes, sometimes as teachers). Until I became LDS, I had never heard a woman "Sister" speak in Church. Even as an investigator, I enjoyed hearing the wisdom and wonderful perspective that they brought to Sacrament meetings. Once out of the Army and stateside, I asked my parents to attend a Sacrament meeting on the day I would be speaking. I did so because I knew (loving me as they did) they would come under these circumstances. Also speaking that day, was a good friend and Relief Society President. As she spoke I could see my Mother transported at both the topic and the speaker. I was to be the concluding speaking, and it dawned on me that this was the first my Mother and Father had ever witnessed hear a woman speak in a Church meeting. My Mother was moved to tears, and my Father seemed to be enjoying it as well. There was no judgement in their eyes, just enjoyment at her talk and mine, mine because that is what good parents do. 

My parents were seated near the front, and my Mother rushed up to speak to our Relief Society President, in order to thank her for her comments. My Mother did so while wiping away tears, and then gave me a big hug. My Father hung back and said that he enjoyed both our "sermons" as he called them. He did not shake her hand, only because here in the South a gentleman only shakes the hand of a woman, "if" she extends it. At least that is how I was raised, but I also got a hug from him. 

One of the criticisms that we receive from the Evanglical world is when we depart from New Testament teachings. The title of the thread is a quote from 1 Corinthians 14:34. As I was looking in the Topical Guide, under the words, "Woman and Women", I noted that this teaching was never in Jesus Christ's teaching, but in the Apostle Paul's teaching. Now these words my have been revealed to him, but I think it was more of a cultural norm, for both Jews and a small but growing first century Christian Church reflecting customs of that day. 

Some of the best Gospel Doctrine teachers I ever had, was a Sister in my old Ward. Many wonderful ideas would come from Bisopric and Ward Counsel meetings where the three Presidents were in attendance, Relief Society, Young Women's and Primary Presidents. All who's opinions were not only important, but welcome. As when it came to activity plans from the Priesthood leaders, it would be, cookouts, softball games and chile cook offs. We have done all three in the last Qtr, iseas I loved until I broke my back.  

I already know how we value our Sisters in the Gospel, and we receive criticism from many other Faith's. As there also seems to be no end to the many things for which we receive such criticisms. So contrary to New Testiment scripture, our Sisters, speak, preach, exhort, and hold office, and in the temple some serve an even greater appointment. 

What can we as Priesthood Leaders, as Husbands and Father do to help understand that none of this  "Work", or "works without them". One big areas I have seen over my 38 years in the Church, is so many brethren who will not support their wives in their respective callings. When our wives or daughters and now my grandchild daughters, do not feel their calling important in the home, they certainly not incision it outside the home.

So, what to do? Thoughts? 

[california boy]

Either we follow the teachings of Paul and revere him as someone whose writings come from God, or we don't.  Since we don't then we reevaluate his writings and acknowledge that Paul like most Biblical writers inject their own ideas and opinions. The test that Christ gives is to ask if it bears good fruit.  I would say that in this case, allowing women to speak in church brings forth good fruit.  Like other departures from Paul's writings, may we have the wisdom to recognize that which is good and that which is harmful to the salvation and building up of the kingdom of God.  We give it our best effort and leave the rest up to God.

Edited August 8, 2017 by california boy

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I grew up in a Church, a Baptist Church where women were never allowed to speak (other than in Sunday School classes, sometimes as teachers). Until I became LDS, I had never heard a woman "Sister" speak in Church. Even as an investigator, I enjoyed hearing the wisdom and wonderful perspective that they brought to Sacrament meetings. Once out of the Army and stateside, I asked my parents to attend a Sacrament meeting on the day I would be speaking. I did so because I knew (loving me as they did) they would come under these circumstances. Also speaking that day, was a good friend and Relief Society President. As she spoke I could see my Mother transported at both the topic and the speaker. I was to be the concluding speaking, and it dawned on me that this was the first my Mother and Father had ever witnessed hear a woman speak in a Church meeting. My Mother was moved to tears, and my Father seemed to be enjoying it as well. There was no judgement in their eyes, just enjoyment at her talk and mine, mine because that is what good parents do. 

My parents were seated near the front, and my Mother rushed up to speak to our Relief Society President, in order to thank her for her comments. My Mother did so while wiping away tears, and then gave me a big hug. My Father hung back and said that he enjoyed both our "sermons" as he called them. He did not shake her hand, only because here in the South a gentleman only shakes the hand of a woman, "if" she extends it. At least that is how I was raised, but I also got a hug from him. 

Beautiful story.  Thank you for sharing.  

10 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

One of the criticisms that we receive from the Evanglical world is when we depart from New Testament teachings.

Always a false assumption.

In regards to 1 Cornin 14, the JST and modern day revelation clarifies this has not mandating women to always literally shut up, but they are to be respectful of men (and vise versa), and not dominate over them in church.  I recommend: https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/1-corinthians/chapter-39-1-corinthians-12-14?lang=eng

In addition to receiving some criticism for allowing women to speak, we LDS also receive a lot more criticism from the other end of the spectrum for not having women priests.  

10 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

One big areas I have seen over my 38 years in the Church, is so many brethren who will not support their wives in their respective callings. When our wives or daughters and now my grandchild daughters, do not feel their calling important in the home, they certainly not incision it outside the home.

Your point here is extremely important.  Thankfully, what you're describing has not been my experience as a woman in the Church at all.  I have always been supported by men in the church (father, church brothers, friends, etc).  One of my biggest supporters is my non-LDS husband.  

Still, I know that not all women are so fortunate, and what you describe is a real problem.  There are variety of ways this problem can manifest--

- Not supporting her via not giving her time to do her calling.  Remedied by giving her time.  For example, dad can watch the kids for a time so she can prepare a lesson or visit teach.

- Not supporting via not listening.  *Jane bonks such an idiot on the head*  Dude, the man is not without the woman.  Listen to your wife/sister/mom/etc.

- Not supporting via just skipping over her/her calling.   *Jane bonks this an idiot on the head too*

- Not supporting via never saying thanks.   *Jane bonks idiot #3 on the head too*

The proper way: give everyone in your life time to fulfill their calling, listen to them and respect them, and thank them for their contribution.  

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I grew up in a Church, a Baptist Church where women were never allowed to speak (other than in Sunday School classes, sometimes as teachers). Until I became LDS, I had never heard a woman "Sister" speak in Church. Even as an investigator, I enjoyed hearing the wisdom and wonderful perspective that they brought to Sacrament meetings. Once out of the Army and stateside, I asked my parents to attend a Sacrament meeting on the day I would be speaking. I did so because I knew (loving me as they did) they would come under these circumstances. Also speaking that day, was a good friend and Relief Society President. As she spoke I could see my Mother transported at both the topic and the speaker. I was to be the concluding speaking, and it dawned on me that this was the first my Mother and Father had ever witnessed hear a woman speak in a Church meeting. My Mother was moved to tears, and my Father seemed to be enjoying it as well. There was no judgement in their eyes, just enjoyment at her talk and mine, mine because that is what good parents do. 

My parents were seated near the front, and my Mother rushed up to speak to our Relief Society President, in order to thank her for her comments. My Mother did so while wiping away tears, and then gave me a big hug. My Father hung back and said that he enjoyed both our "sermons" as he called them. He did not shake her hand, only because here in the South a gentleman only shakes the hand of a woman, "if" she extends it. At least that is how I was raised, but I also got a hug from him. 

One of the criticisms that we receive from the Evanglical world is when we depart from New Testament teachings. The title of the thread is a quote from 1 Corinthians 14:34. As I was looking in the Topical Guide, under the words, "Woman and Women", I noted that this teaching was never in Jesus Christ's teaching, but in the Apostle Paul's teaching. Now these words my have been revealed to him, but I think it was more of a cultural norm, for both Jews and a small but growing first century Christian Church reflecting customs of that day. 

Some of the best Gospel Doctrine teachers I ever had, was a Sister in my old Ward. Many wonderful ideas would come from Bisopric and Ward Counsel meetings where the three Presidents were in attendance, Relief Society, Young Women's and Primary Presidents. All who's opinions were not only important, but welcome. As when it came to activity plans from the Priesthood leaders, it would be, cookouts, softball games and chile cook offs. We have done all three in the last Qtr, iseas I loved until I broke my back.  

I already know how we value our Sisters in the Gospel, and we receive criticism from many other Faith's. As there also seems to be no end to the many things for which we receive such criticisms. So contrary to New Testiment scripture, our Sisters, speak, preach, exhort, and hold office, and in the temple some serve an even greater appointment. 

What can we as Priesthood Leaders, as Husbands and Father do to help understand that none of this  "Work", or "works without them". One big areas I have seen over my 38 years in the Church, is so many brethren who will not support their wives in their respective callings. When our wives or daughters and now my grandchild daughters, do not feel their calling important in the home, they certainly not incision it outside the home.

So, what to do? Thoughts? 

Maybe you would like more input from the men, but I just had to tell you that you sparked something in me to want to return to church, if only a moment, because of what you said about the women in our church speaking. I worry about going to another church because of the literal belief in the Bible that other churches have. I was once critical, in my head mostly, that our church believes the Bible only as far as it is translated correctly. Now I've done a complete turnaround about it and am thrilled that we don't take every thing as gospel truth on that end. Now if we can do that with the BoM, I would be even more thrilled. Because I don't like some things in it either. 

I like that our church, I call it ours because I'm not yet out on paper (who knows), I like that the women speak all the time and hopefully more will come of it. 

Thanks for your post!

[The Nehor]

I am of two minds about this. On one hand women can give inspiring discourses and have great insights just as often as men do. On the other hand if we kept women from speaking Sister Snoozer (name changed to protect the guilty) would not be able to stand up at every F&T meeting and tell the story of her incredibly dull life and spout banal meaningless platitudes. In fact if we expanded that rule and kept men from speaking then Brother Boring would also not be able to regale us with his sermons in the same meeting filled with fortune cookie wisdom, incoherent inconsistency, and the whole thing verging on 95% false whenever he briefly tries to tie his ramblings to the gospel.

Basically either let women speak or shut everyone up.

[JAHS]

I am reminded of a few of the Fourteen fundamentals for following the prophet according to President Benson:

The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.
The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

What the Apostle Paul said was right and true for his time, but as we progress and grow in the gospel we become ready to receive more light and knowledge and new principles through revelation from our latter-day prophets. 
 

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

Either we follow the teachings of Paul and revere him as someone whose writings come from God, or we don't.  Since we don't then we reevaluate his writings and acknowledge that Paul like most Biblical writers inject their own ideas and opinions. The test that Christ gives is to ask if it bears good fruit.  I would say that in this case, allowing women to speak in church brings forth good fruit.  Like other departures from Paul's writings, may we have the wisdom to recognize that which is good and that which is harmful to the salvation and building up of the kingdom of God.  We give it our best effort and leave the rest up to God.

Or we recognize that many commands are tied to a particular time and place. As Joseph said, the command to Noah to build an ark doesn't mean we each have to build arks. The problem is in assuming Paul's directions to relatively new churches with particular problems due to the conversion of gentiles for a Jewish church imply universal timeless rules.

Edited August 8, 2017 by clarkgoble

[thesometimesaint]

Anyone who believes LDS women should keep silent doesn't know LDS women very well.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe you would like more input from the men, but I just had to tell you that you sparked something in me to want to return to church, if only a moment, because of what you said about the women in our church speaking. I worry about going to another church because of the literal belief in the Bible that other churches have. I was once critical, in my head mostly, that our church believes the Bible only as far as it is translated correctly. Now I've done a complete turnaround about it and am thrilled that we don't take every thing as gospel truth on that end. Now if we can do that with the BoM, I would be even more thrilled. Because I don't like some things in it either. 

I like that our church, I call it ours because I'm not yet out on paper (who knows), I like that the women speak all the time and hopefully more will come of it. 

Thanks for your post!

I wish that your your "moment" had turned into more than just a moment. Very early on the Prophet Joseph Smth saw the need and the wonderful contribution that our sisters could bring to our new Faith (at that time". Our sisters serve not only in a number of Presideency's in Ward positions, but in Stake Presidencys as well. They also serve as General Authorites, in these same callings. Also in one really influential post (if not still) within the Church, as Chief and editor of Deseret  Publications, (I hope she is in that  position I speak of) Sister Sherry Dew (I also hope I spelled her name correctly) which is a "very influential position". I have known and read your posts for many years  Tadenda, and there are many things that keep you interested "in" and not leading to have you leave the Church in belief or on paper. So many think that the mind, or issues with Church teaching should overrule the heart, or more importantly the "Spirit". It is the "Spirit" that acts as the inner compass, that gently pulls us in the direction of belief and what is right. It does so, ever so gently as to add and aid us, as to not not force us and violate our free agency or free will. (I am hoping not to be redundant)  

One thing in this day and age, (via the Internet) is the availability  of a steady diet of articles and documents that are designed to plant and cultivate the "seed of doubt". Not just for our Faith, I use that term "seed of doubt" because while  reading a book of and for pro anti-Mormonism, this was listed as the first and most important formula when dealing with our Faith and for many others. The reality is that this is also the "first tactic" of demons as well, the concept of belief for all, and iin every "belief system". For those who decide they no longer believe in God, they like any other groups or religions begin "missionary work", because every convert bolsters their faith in the "religion of non belief" and it brings them a measure of peace. You have a heart that wants to believe and still have a measure faith, which is the place where the Spirit dwells, listen to it, seek it out, embrace it. 

We are born with this "inner compass", the "desire to believe", and then as we grow older we tend to dismiss it as childish, or lack of education even foolishness. We do this while hanging on the the gift of "loving without judgement", "trusting" and "compassion for those around us", because for many these are are things we that we should have. We should remain and adopt the practice of daily scripture study and daily prayer, instead of seeing this as a draining us of our time, or the invasion of our intellect. Believe it or not, many sisters wonder and worry about not having the Priesthood, should policy change. They also fear the consequences of receiving it. They see the way that such callings and responsibilities rob (hope this is the right word) their husbands and fathers from so much time with Spouse and Chuldren. The callings of Bishop and Counselors, Stake Presidencies and councilors, and General Authorities (especially) rob them of years on not having the joy of having husbands and fathers sitting with families in Church meetings. For the wives of Apostles and Prophets it becomes the rest of their lives of never sitting with their husbands again in Church again, 

I have seen over decades the very intimate pratice if seeing husband any wide sitting together in Church meetings. The ability of young mothers who are able to listen more intently to sermons, when fathers are able to assist with children. The intiment interaction of holding hands, caressing, small things which allow husbands and wives to connect, in very innocent ways, that strengthen marriages. To allow children fall asleep in the embrace of their father's, with their heads on his shoulder. Also the paradox of suddenly have two parents who have callings that rob children of both parents, leaving them in the care of another. The Priesthood is a serving of servitude, not one of simply leadership, and certainly not one that elevates one over another, except for those who seek to practice "unrighteousness dominion" over which as scripture points out leads to destruction and "...amen to the Priesthood and authority of that man". (D&C 121:37). There are circumstances where women are given Priesthood powers to bless others with "life saving ordinances". Also Sisters and especially Mothers have incredible gifts and power that so many men lack. A Mother can calm a sick or frantic child with a simple touch. I once once taken to the hospital, unaware with a heartbeat so out of control that doctors feared I would have a heart attack. As I was thrashing around, even after a Priesthood blessing, doctors feared they may need to put me under to save my life. Shortly before putting me in a chemically induces coma, my Mother arrives (as I am told), she simply put her hand upon my forehead, my body just when limp (I was in my 30's at the time) again as I am told. The doctors asked of her, what did you do? Calmly she just said, "nothing, I am just his Mama". 

Our God, a living and loving God grants to all the gift we need. Be it Priesthood or other heavenly gifts, but each according to his needs. I have a friend I have I have known since he was a teenage, who lost his wife a year ago today. He has one child who is only 5 or 6, years old, his greatest fear was losing the gifts his wife had being a Mother. Her ability (for instance) of simple calming his daughter with a simple word or touch. Despite a brief period of turmoil, he found that these gifts became his. When I say brief, I mean just a couple of weeks. Yesterday was just one week of the day she passed away. Anyway, enough said, I lack the ability to restore faith, and to strengthen it, just wanted to help...God bless you my Sister. My prayer is that you find the faith you one enjoyed, nothing more. 

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I wish that your your "moment" had turned into more than just a moment. Very early on the Prophet Joseph Smth saw the need and the wonderful contribution that our sisters could bring to our new Faith (at that time". Our sisters serve not only in a number of Presideency's in Ward positions, but in Stake Presidencys as well. They also serve as General Authorites, in these same callings. Also in one really influential post (if not still) within the Church, as Chief and editor of Deseret  Publications, (I hope she is in that  position I speak of) Sister Sherry Dew (I also hope I spelled her name correctly) which is a "very influential position". I have known and read your posts for many years  Tadenda, and there are many things that keep you interested "in" and not leading to have you leave the Church in belief or on paper. So many think that the mind, or issues with Church teaching should overrule the heart, or more importantly the "Spirit". It is the "Spirit" that acts as the inner compass, that gently pulls us in the direction of belief and what is right. It does so, ever so gently as to add and aid us, as to not not force us and violate our free agency or free will. (I am hoping not to be redundant)  

One thing in this day and age, (via the Internet) is the availability  of a steady diet of articles and documents that are designed to plant and cultivate the "seed of doubt". Not just for our Faith, I use that term "seed of doubt" because while  reading a book of and for pro anti-Mormonism, this was listed as the first and most important formula when dealing with our Faith and for many others. The reality is that this is also the "first tactic" of demons as well, the concept of belief for all, and iin every "belief system". For those who decide they no longer believe in God, they like any other groups or religions begin "missionary work", because every convert bolsters their faith in the "religion of non belief" and it brings them a measure of peace. You have a heart that wants to believe and still have a measure faith, which is the place where the Spirit dwells, listen to it, seek it out, embrace it. 

We are born with this "inner compass", the "desire to believe", and then as we grow older we tend to dismiss it as childish, or lack of education even foolishness. We do this while hanging on the the gift of "loving without judgement", "trusting" and "compassion for those around us", because for many these are are things we that we should have. We should remain and adopt the practice of daily scripture study and daily prayer, instead of seeing this as a draining us of our time, or the invasion of our intellect. Believe it or not, many sisters wonder and worry about not having the Priesthood, should policy change. They also fear the consequences of receiving it. They see the way that such callings and responsibilities rob (hope this is the right word) their husbands and fathers from so much time with Spouse and Chuldren. The callings of Bishop and Counselors, Stake Presidencies and councilors, and General Authorities (especially) rob them of years on not having the joy of having husbands and fathers sitting with families in Church meetings. For the wives of Apostles and Prophets it becomes the rest of their lives of never sitting with their husbands again in Church again, 

I have seen over decades the very intimate pratice if seeing husband any wide sitting together in Church meetings. The ability of young mothers who are able to listen more intently to sermons, when fathers are able to assist with children. The intiment interaction of holding hands, caressing, small things which allow husbands and wives to connect, in very innocent ways, that strengthen marriages. To allow children fall asleep in the embrace of their father's, with their heads on his shoulder. Also the paradox of suddenly have two parents who have callings that rob children of both parents, leaving them in the care of another. The Priesthood is a serving of servitude, not one of simply leadership, and certainly not one that elevates one over another, except for those who seek to practice "unrighteousness dominion" over which as scripture points out leads to destruction and "...amen to the Priesthood and authority of that man". (D&C 121:37). There are circumstances where women are given Priesthood powers to bless others with "life saving ordinances". Also Sisters and especially Mothers have incredible gifts and power that so many men lack. A Mother can calm a sick or frantic child with a simple touch. I once once taken to the hospital, unaware with a heartbeat so out of control that doctors feared I would have a heart attack. As I was thrashing around, even after a Priesthood blessing, doctors feared they may need to put me under to save my life. Shortly before putting me in a chemically induces coma, my Mother arrives (as I am told), she simply put her hand upon my forehead, my body just when limp (I was in my 30's at the time) again as I am told. The doctors asked of her, what did you do? Calmly she just said, "nothing, I am just his Mama". 

Our God, a living and loving God grants to all the gift we need. Be it Priesthood or other heavenly gifts, but each according to his needs. I have a friend I have I have known since he was a teenage, who lost his wife a year ago today. He has one child who is only 5 or 6, years old, his greatest fear was losing the gifts his wife had being a Mother. Her ability (for instance) of simple calming his daughter with a simple word or touch. Despite a brief period of turmoil, he found that these gifts became his. When I say brief, I mean just a couple of weeks. Yesterday was just one week of the day she passed away. Anyway, enough said, I lack the ability to restore faith, and to strengthen it, just wanted to help...God bless you my Sister. My prayer is that you find the faith you one enjoyed, nothing more. 

Your sweet Mama, makes me tear up so much, how I miss mine. Bless you Papa!!

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Your sweet Mama, makes me tear up so much, how I miss mine. Bless you Papa!!

Thank you, she was an amazing woman, as are most Mothers. I am not sure you read my poem "When My Mother Prayers", without her no such poem could have been written. I too miss her, as you and so many others should miss such amazing creatures. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[RevTestament]

I like several comments in this thread. With Paul context is important. It could be that speaking up in Church meant with regards to church governance which is a priesthood function. In Jewish tradition, I'm sure women were allowed to ask questions, but probably were not allowed to address the rabbis in terms of giving advice, or were not asked to speak or give advice by the rabbi, etc. I was raised Baptist, and as I recall women did speak up in Sunday school. I feel my own wife is very intuitive, and I certainly give her every opportunity to speak in the home. In fact I largely put her in charge of the home, and she accepted that role until she went to work. I virtually always supported her decisions with regards to the children, but sometimes I voiced my difference, and she tried to accept that when I spoke up. Women are often very in tune with the spirit, and have valuable testimony and experiences which are beneficial for all to hear, so in this regard I am with California Boy that allowing them and even asking women to speak bears good fruit. I consider one of the best Gospel Doctrine teachers I ever had was a woman. I would have been greatly less enriched had I not experienced her teaching. She was humorous, and was able to keep my attention. There are several male teachers now trying to fill her shoes, and none of them are as good. I have never accepted Paul's letters to the Churches as dictation straight from God, and on the issue of marriage, although he advises his listeners not to marry but to remain single like him, he also at one point says that this advice was not by way of commandment. So to treat everything Paul says as commandment I don't believe would be prudent. If every Christian since Paul's day had followed this advice, Christianity would probably have gone extinct like the Shakers. This is obviously not the Lord's intent. This means Paul's advice is subject to change, and was sometimes given within certain contexts. In Paul's case at the time advice not to marry may have been prudent if the couple were Jewish converts as the couple could be bearing children when the seven years war would place the family under great duress, or perhaps end up killing them. However, obviously this did not apply to new churches in Asia Minor Paul was usually addressing in his epistles. I feel westerners often read Paul too literally, and get the wrong impression from him. On this particular subject I am quite comfortable with the light on the subject from the JST, and am quite happy the Church allows and indeed even expects women to speak, bear their testimonies, and give us the benefit of their keen intuition and insights.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

. I feel westerners often read Paul too literally, and get the wrong impression from him.

Here's a pretty good book.

https://www.amazon.com/Misreading-Scripture-Western-Eyes-Understand-ebook/dp/B009QYVGJA/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1502228602&sr=8-1-fkmr3

[Raymond Ellis]

The apostle Paul in Timothy -- I think it is -- and Corinthians said women are not permitted to speak in church but are to remain silent. Paul says elsewhere that Men are the glory of God and women are the glory of men. Although I am a Mormon I believe in what Paul says, but I do not think we should force women not to speak but we should leave it up to the women collectively or individually to decide to be silent in church.

Our church is strong because it is run mainly by men, but our church is weakened because it allows women to speak and to hold authority over men.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Raymond Ellis said:

The apostle Paul in Timothy -- I think it is -- and Corinthians said women are not permitted to speak in church but are to remain silent. Paul says elsewhere that Men are the glory of God and women are the glory of men. Although I am a Mormon I believe in what Paul says, but I do not think we should force women not to speak but we should leave it up to the women collectively or individually to decide to be silent in church.

Our church is strong because it is run mainly by men, but our church is weakened because it allows women to speak and to hold authority over men.

So in your world, are women to be encouraged to speak outside of church or is it best to remain silent and under men's authority there as well?

Edited April 10, 2018 by Calm

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Raymond Ellis said:

The apostle Paul in Timothy -- I think it is -- and Corinthians said women are not permitted to speak in church but are to remain silent. Paul says elsewhere that Men are the glory of God and women are the glory of men. Although I am a Mormon I believe in what Paul says, but I do not think we should force women not to speak but we should leave it up to the women collectively or individually to decide to be silent in church.

Our church is strong because it is run mainly by men, but our church is weakened because it allows women to speak and to hold authority over men.

So the Apostles who gave women speaking assignments in General Conference are basically apostate and the entirety of the Women's Session of Conference is basically all heresy?

Good to know. Uh-oh

"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. And Adam reproved Eve saying that it was not meet for Eve to be lifted up in pride even unto speaking blasphemies such as prophesying to her husband."

Oh wait....I made that last part up! Our scriptures seem to support this depraved practice too!!!! That horrible woman was....(gasp)...... teaching and prophesying in the presence of her husband.

Basically everyone in the faith including our apostles disagrees with you. The Church is not strong because men "mostly run it". It is strong because most of us (men and women) are trying to run our little part of the Kingdom the way God wants. People with ideas like yours are a big reason I hope my suspicion that the Church is gearing up to have women function as Priesthood holders comes true.

Perhaps you would next like to enlighten us all on how our lack of owning slaves as portrayed in offhand passages in the Bible is weakening the church?

 

 

Also good work on the necromancy:

Edited April 10, 2018 by The Nehor

[Amulek]

6 hours ago, Raymond Ellis said:

Although I am a Mormon...

CFR 

 

[Avatar4321]

On 8/8/2017 at 12:05 PM, thesometimesaint said:

Anyone who believes LDS women should keep silent doesn't know LDS women very well.

 

 

 

Anyone who believes any woman can stay silent doesn’t know women

[CV75]

On 8/7/2017 at 11:28 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

So, what to do? Thoughts? 

FWIW: "Explain that it is difficult to understand the intent* of Paul’s counsel since he clearly did not forbid women from praying or speaking in Church meetings (see 1 Corinthians 11:5). The Joseph Smith Translation replaces the word speak in verses 34 and 35 with rule. This word change suggests the possibility that Paul was trying to correct a situation in which some Corinthian women were either being disorderly during worship services or were improperly seeking to take responsibility to lead rather than sustaining and following priesthood leaders (see New Testament Student Manual [Church Educational System manual, 2014], 380)." https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-first-epistle-of-paul-to-the-corinthians/lesson-110-1-corinthians-13-14?lang=eng

Also, for some additional commentary:

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/1-corinthians/chapter-39-1-corinthians-12-14?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/1-corinthians/chapter-39-1-corinthians-12-14?lang=eng

* It is interesting to me that the passage follows one about speaking in tongues (verses 2-26), a gift also mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 and 13. "He cautioned that the gift of speaking in tongues, if used improperly, will fail to edify the Church and will distract members from seeking superior spiritual gifts."

Edited April 10, 2018 by CV75

[Tacenda]

On 8/7/2017 at 9:28 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I grew up in a Church, a Baptist Church where women were never allowed to speak (other than in Sunday School classes, sometimes as teachers). Until I became LDS, I had never heard a woman "Sister" speak in Church. Even as an investigator, I enjoyed hearing the wisdom and wonderful perspective that they brought to Sacrament meetings. Once out of the Army and stateside, I asked my parents to attend a Sacrament meeting on the day I would be speaking. I did so because I knew (loving me as they did) they would come under these circumstances. Also speaking that day, was a good friend and Relief Society President. As she spoke I could see my Mother transported at both the topic and the speaker. I was to be the concluding speaking, and it dawned on me that this was the first my Mother and Father had ever witnessed hear a woman speak in a Church meeting. My Mother was moved to tears, and my Father seemed to be enjoying it as well. There was no judgement in their eyes, just enjoyment at her talk and mine, mine because that is what good parents do. 

My parents were seated near the front, and my Mother rushed up to speak to our Relief Society President, in order to thank her for her comments. My Mother did so while wiping away tears, and then gave me a big hug. My Father hung back and said that he enjoyed both our "sermons" as he called them. He did not shake her hand, only because here in the South a gentleman only shakes the hand of a woman, "if" she extends it. At least that is how I was raised, but I also got a hug from him. 

One of the criticisms that we receive from the Evanglical world is when we depart from New Testament teachings. The title of the thread is a quote from 1 Corinthians 14:34. As I was looking in the Topical Guide, under the words, "Woman and Women", I noted that this teaching was never in Jesus Christ's teaching, but in the Apostle Paul's teaching. Now these words my have been revealed to him, but I think it was more of a cultural norm, for both Jews and a small but growing first century Christian Church reflecting customs of that day. 

Some of the best Gospel Doctrine teachers I ever had, was a Sister in my old Ward. Many wonderful ideas would come from Bisopric and Ward Counsel meetings where the three Presidents were in attendance, Relief Society, Young Women's and Primary Presidents. All who's opinions were not only important, but welcome. As when it came to activity plans from the Priesthood leaders, it would be, cookouts, softball games and chile cook offs. We have done all three in the last Qtr, iseas I loved until I broke my back.  

I already know how we value our Sisters in the Gospel, and we receive criticism from many other Faith's. As there also seems to be no end to the many things for which we receive such criticisms. So contrary to New Testiment scripture, our Sisters, speak, preach, exhort, and hold office, and in the temple some serve an even greater appointment. 

What can we as Priesthood Leaders, as Husbands and Father do to help understand that none of this  "Work", or "works without them". One big areas I have seen over my 38 years in the Church, is so many brethren who will not support their wives in their respective callings. When our wives or daughters and now my grandchild daughters, do not feel their calling important in the home, they certainly not incision it outside the home.

So, what to do? Thoughts? 

100 % agree Papa! I guess when it's all I'm use to and a born in the covenant member, I don't realise how good women in the church have it. But I think there are a lot of faiths that go even further for women, such as giving them more authority. And the Baptist church being at the lower bottom for that.

[mnn727]

On 8/8/2017 at 10:38 AM, The Nehor said:

I am of two minds about this. On one hand women can give inspiring discourses and have great insights just as often as men do. On the other hand if we kept women from speaking Sister Snoozer (name changed to protect the guilty) would not be able to stand up at every F&T meeting and tell the story of her incredibly dull life and spout banal meaningless platitudes. In fact if we expanded that rule and kept men from speaking then Brother Boring would also not be able to regale us with his sermons in the same meeting filled with fortune cookie wisdom, incoherent inconsistency, and the whole thing verging on 95% false whenever he briefly tries to tie his ramblings to the gospel.

Basically either let women speak or shut everyone up.

Or perhaps dumping F&T meeting would be the best way of handling Sister Snoozer and Brother Boring.

[smac97]

On 8/8/2017 at 5:36 AM, california boy said:

Either we follow the teachings of Paul and revere him as someone whose writings come from God, or we don't.  

Well, there's a third option: We seek to better understand the teachings of Paul through study and prayer.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak … for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Cor. 14:34–35.)

These oft misunderstood lines were changed in the Inspired Version to read, “it is not permitted unto them to rule … for it is a shame for women to rule in the church.” (JST, 1 Cor. 14:34–35; italics added.) In another instance the Prophet declared that “a woman has no right to found or organize a church—God never sent them to do it.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 212.) The question is one of the priesthood’s divine commission and role in the establishment and direction of God’s church upon the earth. This in no way prohibits a woman from teaching and testifying in the church.

And here:

Quote

The JST also clarifies this statement: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak” (KJV, 1 Cor. 14:34). This statement seems odd since the Apostle Paul had already acknowledged the right of women to pray and prophesy, the latter meaning to teach under the power of the Holy Ghost (see 1 Cor. 11:5).⁸The JST changes one word and in so doing clarifies the whole issue: “It is not permitted unto them to rule”; rather, they are “to be under obedience, as also saith the law [of Moses]” (JST, 1 Cor. 14:34, footnote b). From this simple change, we see that the Apostle Paul was not forbidding sisters to teach or pray, but rather correcting those who attempted to usurp priesthood authority.

We also seek guidance from modern prophets and apostles.

On 8/8/2017 at 5:36 AM, california boy said:

Since we don't then we reevaluate his writings and acknowledge that Paul like most Biblical writers inject their own ideas and opinions.

You are ignoring the JST.

Nevertheless, you have a point.  There are times when we cultural influence/bias can affect a Church's leader's counsel.  Hence the importance of avoiding proof-texting, eisegesis, reading scriptural passages in isolation, and so on.  As Elder Andersen wisely put it:

Quote

A few question their faith when they find a statement made by a Church leader decades ago that seems incongruent with our doctrine. There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find.

The leaders of the Church are honest but imperfect men. Remember the words of Moroni: “Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father … ; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.”²¹

Joseph Smith said, “I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations.”²² The miracle of God’s hand in the history and destiny of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is understood only through the lens of spiritual inquiry. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “Every [person] eventually is backed up to the wall of faith, and there … must make his stand.”²³ Don’t be surprised when it happens to you!

Yep.

On 8/8/2017 at 5:36 AM, california boy said:

The test that Christ gives is to ask if it bears good fruit.  

Indeed.  But what "good fruit" means is not always immediately apparent.  Consider, for example, John 6, which includes a record of the Savior's "Bread of Life" sermon.  That sermon, we are told, caused many of his followers to "murmer" and be offended, even to the point that "{f}rom that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

I am curious how you gauge this sermon.  Was it "good fruit" or not?

On 8/8/2017 at 5:36 AM, california boy said:

I would say that in this case, allowing women to speak in church brings forth good fruit.  

Same here.  Fortunately, we have the JST and additional guidance from prophets and apostles, such that women have never been forbidden to speak in our church.

On 8/8/2017 at 5:36 AM, california boy said:

Like other departures from Paul's writings,

Such as?

On 8/8/2017 at 5:36 AM, california boy said:

may we have the wisdom to recognize that which is good and that which is harmful to the salvation and building up of the kingdom of God.  We give it our best effort and leave the rest up to God.

Indeed.  Wisdom is to be found through the scriptures, through study, and prayer, and through listening to the counsel of modern prophets and apostles.

There are times when what Jesus taught will, as in John 6, cause murmurings and offense.  As He elsewhere declared in Matthew 10:

Quote

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

The "fruit" of obedience can sometimes take a while to ripen.  If we rebel in the moment, if we reject those aspects of the Gospel which are difficult to accept, then we may stray.  We may be divided. We may deprive ourselves of the "good fruit."  Again from John 6:

Quote

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
...
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
...
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
...
66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Or perhaps dumping F&T meeting would be the best way of handling Sister Snoozer and Brother Boring.

I enjoy F&T meeting but there are always those members who just struggle not to give a talk or preach when they bear their testimonies and that can make the meeting TOUGH!  We had a couple of those this last Sunday and it was very uncomfortable.

[rongo]

50 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I enjoy F&T meeting but there are always those members who just struggle not to give a talk or preach when they bear their testimonies and that can make the meeting TOUGH!  We had a couple of those this last Sunday and it was very uncomfortable.

This is impossible to fix, and in my experience, is actually made worse when it is directly and explicitly addressed (direct teaching over the pulpit about dos and don'ts with testimonies). The most blatant example was when our bishop in a ward in Gilbert explicitly asked that parents not come up and whisper in little children's ears and have them repeat back what was whispered, and he asked that little children who were just going to do the testimony ditty practice in the home and in primary. He also went through the dos and don'ts, and had members of the ward council model this. Immediately following, twenty little kids (the usual suspects) ran up, and several parents brought little kids up. It was actually worse than usual immediately after the attempt at direct teaching (which was effectively done, if not effectively received). The reason the bishop wanted to address it was because the meeting was dominated from beginning to end with children, every month.

I've found in my own experience, too, that directly addressing it with the prime offenders does nothing. They continue to do it, and maybe get even a little worse. Then, the bishop needs to decide if he's going to escalate and tell them to sit down (very precarious with a lot of people). 

In a lot of ways, F&T meeting is a form of therapy where people who have needs to give travelogues, sermons, etc. hold the rest of us hostage. They get a boost out of it, but it can be brutal for the rest of us. 

When I was in high school in Chicago, we had an ancient Filipino brother whom no one could understand who would bear his testimony the entire meeting. The bishop tried to prevent this by having him give the opening prayer (thinking that he might hopefully feel like he had participated in that way), but all that happened was that the opening prayer lasted 40 minutes!   And what do you do, then? Pull on his suit coat and tell him to sit down?

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I enjoy F&T meeting but there are always those members who just struggle not to give a talk or preach when they bear their testimonies and that can make the meeting TOUGH!  We had a couple of those this last Sunday and it was very uncomfortable.

Sometimes I think that F&T becomes a time when some of our more lonely members get a chance to talk. For them it is important even though for most of the rest of us it has little to do with bearing a testimony.