Why are we silent?

[Anijen]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Do you even know enough about this subject to make a statement?  

1. I don't need your condescending attitude. 2. I didn't know one had to "know enough" to state their opinion.

 

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perhaps silence is a prudent course of action.

Of course it is, you would rather have them silent, [those who opposes your beliefs]. 

 

 

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Do sexual preditors need bathrooms in order to attack you?

No, and you spelled predators wrong. 

 

 

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Do you know of ANY case where a  person claiming to be transgender who sexually attacked someone in a bathroom?

No, and I did not claim that.

 

Now to everyone else (not california boy). His posts is an example of the ridicule I knew would happen. And in his very first post he tried to shame me back into silence. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Anijen

[sunstoned]

The topic of rest rooms is something that my university is trying to address.  The goal is to have facilities that provide for everyone. Currently the policy is that a person can use the facility that he/she is most comfortable with.  We are looking at expanding the traditional men/women restrooms to include single occupancy facilities. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by sunstoned

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Even in ancient Athenian Greece it wasn't a pure democracy. Only certain upper class males were permitted a say.

Oh how far democracy has fallen since then.

(runs and ducks)

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

lol.  oops forgot about that.  Quite honestly, i completely forget that they are still women.  If this guy walked into a mens bathroom, I would not even turn my head to notice.  Yet people seem to get hysteical about this issue.  Usually through ignorance on what transgender even looks like.

 

 

I am more concerned that the option exists at all. I have never met a mentally balanced transgender person.

[Ahab]

My stand on this issue of which bathroom to use is that I really don't care either way as long as everyone has their own stall or room.

I detest urinals and don't ever use one when I have the option of using a stall.  I vote that we get rid of all urinals and put stalls in their space.

[Duncan]

Sometimes there is no public vote. When gay marriage came to Canada it was voted on in the Parliament (IIRC) I think God punished us with Justin Bieber and former Mayor Rob Ford

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Anijen said:

1. I don't need your condescending attitude. 2. I didn't know one had to "know enough" to state their opinion.

 

Of course it is, you would rather have them silent, [those who opposes your beliefs]. 

 

 

No, and you spelled predators wrong. 

 

 

No, and I did not claim that.

 

Now to everyone else (not california boy). His posts is an example of the ridicule I knew would happen. And in his very first post he tried to shame me back into silence. 

I am SO SORRY that you were so insulted by my remarks.  It really wasn't intentional, but I can certainly see how you would be offended.  That was a very insensitive way for me to ask the question.

I have to admit complete ignorance on this subject.  I really don't know or understand transgender individuals.  I have only met one or two in a very casual way.  But I do know that the press often vilifies them unjustly and assume they are all teenage boys just trying to sneak into women's bathrooms.  Or predatory rapist looking for a woman's restroom to perform their intent.  I can understand the concerns, but I also find a complete lack of evidence of this happening.  

But in my defense, you really had to slice and dice what I wrote to come up with your offense.  This is what you sliced from my comments

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Do you even know enough about this subject to make a statement?  

And this is what I actually wrote

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Do you even know enough about this subject to make a statement?  If you are, fine.  If you are not, then perhaps silence is a prudent course of action.

 

I have no idea how much you know about transgenders.  Like I said in my post if you do have a good understanding then I  am FINE with you telling us all what you know.  so that we can all be better informed.  Since it appears that you are well versed in transgender issues, rather than working so hard to find offense, why don't you give us some insight on what bathroom the two examples I posted should use?

 

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Now how will you even know this person is transgender?  Does she look threatening to you?  Do you think it would be an issue if she walked into the mens room?  Do you think she is a sexual preditor that is going to attack you?  Should she be forced legally to use a mans bathroom.

 

Now how about this guy?  This is what a female to male transgender looks like.  Would you feel comfortable with him using the womans bathroom?  Would your daughter be comfortable with him being forced to use the womans bathroom?  Do you think he would cause more of a disturbance in a womans bathroom or a mans bathroom?  This is what we are talking about.  

 

 

 

You also error in claiming that I wanted to silence you or anyone else.  This was my opening comment on the post you quoted.

 

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First of all, I want to state that I think no one should feel they should be silent about anything they want to express their feelings about.  But if you  have something to say, I think it is important to really think about what you want to say and what your objections are.  When we are talking about transgender people, this is what we are talking about

 

I eagerly await your insights on this issue.

 

 

 

 

Caitlyn Jenner

Edited February 19, 2016 by california boy

[Bobbieaware]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

I hope not, since our government is a republic.

I believe it wasn't until the time of World War I (that's a span of about 130 from the beginning of the nation), during the administration of progressive President Woodrow Wilson, that it started to become fashionable to call the U.S. system of government a democracy. There was a slogan during the war -- a rallying cry -- that said the U.S. was going to war in Europe to "Make the World Safe for Democracy." Many non-progressive Americans were outraged that the U.S. was being called a "democracy," as knowledgeable citizens knew the founding fathers had a low opinion of democracies, thinking of them as being little more than systems of mob rule. As you know, under a Republic it's the Constitutional law that's supposed to reign supreme and not the capricious will of an all-to-often fickle populace.

[stemelbow]

You don't really have to think about transgender to feel there is an issue or danger here.  If a man wants to pretend transgender to go into women's bathrooms, there may be no stopping such a one because how do you on the spot determine transgender from man predator, if this predator designs to look like a woman?  

Then again I dont' know how you'd legislate it since so many former males who turn female, and former females who turn male aren't very distinguishable. 

[BlueDreams]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

I am SO SORRY that you were so insulted by my remarks.  It really wasn't intentional, but I can certainly see how you would be offended.  That was a very insensitive way for me to ask the question.

I have to admit complete ignorance on this subject.  I really don't know or understand transgender individuals.  I have only met one or two in a very casual way.  But I do know that the press often vilifies them unjustly and assume they are all teenage boys just trying to sneak into women's bathrooms.  Or predatory rapist looking for a woman's restroom to perform their intent.  I can understand the concerns, but I also find a complete lack of evidence of this happening.  

I don't know much myself. I've met, to date, 2 people that I know in someway ID as transgender. 1 had full surgical transitioning. No one would have known by looking at her that she was born male. The other you would very much know because he didn't present as female outside of his house. Surgical transgenders are actually a smaller subset of transgender populations. There's ones that solely dress, ones that use hormones, top surgery, and bottom surgery. Bottom are the least common. Most transgendered people don't look like Caitlyn Jenner.

That said, I also think anijen overreacted a little....i personally didn't read your post as silencing just presenting an opposing view.

Personally I get people's discomfort with bathrooms. I would also be uncomfortable if the one man I mentioned would have walked into a bathroom I was in....he did not look in the least female. Of course, he wouldn't enter a female bathroom just because he could. I wouldn't even know that the trans-woman I knew wasn't female and wouldn't think twice about it. Even knowing that she was born a man now I would expect her to be in the female's bathroom. It would be beyond weird to have her go to the man's. 

I do feel that some of the concerns would be assuaged but some wouldn't. People are weird period. And as a female, It's not teenage boys that I would be worried about, it would be grown pervvy men who may act the part of a minority group to take advantage of women/girls.  

But I don't think there needs to be legislation enforcing strict gender code. I would rather people self select by having male, female, and unisex bathrooms available.

 

With luv,

BD

[Johnnie Cake]

23 hours ago, Anijen said:

I am a member of the silent majority. As I attend class, I have noticed a very loud liberal agenda. Here in South Dakota (where I am attending grad school), the state legislature just passed a bill that does not allow those who identify themselves as transgender to use the rest rooms of the opposite sex. I have seen so much publicity in the news of how this is a "hate" bill. How it is discrimination etc. Not just in the print, press, broadcast news, but is a huge issue on social media as well. Even here on this MDDB forum it is often a popular topic.

Up to now I have remained silent because I tend to hold a contrary view to the loud voices of the LGBT. I do not hate gay, black, polygamous, or any other group or people, but I know I will be labeled and typecast as a  hater or racist simply because I do not agree with their beliefs.

My question that I would like to discuss is; are there are a lot in the silent majority like myself who do not want to enter the controversial fray because they want to avoid the contention and being thought of as a flat-earther, behind the times, racist, prejudicial, or other hater term? Also, should we be more vocal? Am I wrong, am I in a silent majority or am I now in a minority?

 

American's are so **** about our restroom proclivities.  Europe has unisex restrooms...no one gives a hoot

[bluebell]

I personally don't have a problem with a transgendered person using the bathroom they look like they most belong in.  It's usually pretty easy to tell when someone is dressing like the opposite gender as part of a lifestyle change and not just for the day.

I'm sure it would not always be safe for a transgendered woman especially to use the men's room and i wouldn't want anyone to be hurt or bullied just because they had to pee.  

[BlueDreams]

For the OP, i think there's a fine line between majority communication and silence. I've experienced de facto and more overt silencing several times.....but most of those experiences happened as being a part of a minority (religious, socio-economic, gender, and race being the biggies). Just a couple of weeks ago I felt the need for minority silence in a small group extolling the traditional white-washed view of Columbus, a euro-centric view of who came over to the new world and why, and the constitution as an inspired document with only a minor correction (they weren't perfect, i believe was the gist) about the founding fathers making a land for equality when my brown self raised an eyebrow and had a look on my face that said oh, really???  Only once did I experience it really as being in the majority in thought. And I resented it, I won't pretend I didn't... the presenter made an argument that basically made it that if you disagreed at all you were in some way an oppressor.   

I think there are times the majority needs to take a more passive role....not necessarily complete silence but an understanding that their voice can be inadvertently silencing other voices that need to be heard. Particularly in cases of legislation or social issues, because the issues will likely be effecting one group far more than another. But even on the small scale what I see it as needed because if the majority doesn't see something as a problem, the minority voice is viewed as inert or irrelevant. I see this a lot with people asserting I don't do X or I've never seen X, it's not that big of a problem.  Or, the people I know in said minority group are just fine and haven't said anything about this. Or kinda shrugging it off as some form of over-sensitivity on the minority experience when they've had little to no parallel experiences. Or simply asserting one view (theirs) as fact and all others as opinion or something the minority group has to prove (which is difficult because, again, one status is already privileged over another). Or it's just the massive discomfort of being the one opposing voice in a group that all agrees. If you disagree it can make people defensive as well as inadvertently label yourself as something slightly negative or over-reactive. 

 

So I'm split. Of course I don't think you should be silenced Anijen....but in majority circumstances it may be helpful to realize that your voice has more power than the minority groups.

 

With luv,

BD    

 

[Nevo]

23 hours ago, Anijen said:

My question that I would like to discuss is; are there are a lot in the silent majority like myself who do not want to enter the controversial fray because they want to avoid the contention and being thought of as a flat-earther, behind the times, racist, prejudicial, or other hater term? Also, should we be more vocal? Am I wrong, am I in a silent majority or am I now in a minority?

By all means express your views—shout them from the rooftops if you like—but don't resent others for expressing views that contradict yours. People will judge you by what you say—and rightfully so. So either own it, reconsider your opinion, or remain silent. "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding" (Prov. 17:28)

[MorningStar]

55 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

American's are so **** about our restroom proclivities.  Europe has unisex restrooms...no one gives a hoot

Doesn't Europe also have a lot of bathroom attendants?

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

You don't really have to think about transgender to feel there is an issue or danger here.  If a man wants to pretend transgender to go into women's bathrooms, there may be no stopping such a one because how do you on the spot determine transgender from man predator, if this predator designs to look like a woman?

If we're talking about safety, I think the odds are much higher of a trans woman (like Caitlyn Jenner) being harassed/assaulted in a men's bathroom (particularly in some jurisdictions) than of a predatory male posing as a trans woman assaulting women in women's bathrooms.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Nevo

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Nevo said:

If we're talking about safety, I think the odds are much higher of a trans woman (like Caitlin Jenner) being harassed/assaulted in a men's bathroom (particularly in some jurisdictions) than of a predatory male posing as a trans woman assaulting women in women's bathrooms.

I don't think you're wrong at all.  I can't figure out how this would ever be managed by law. 

[MorningStar]

Here in Seattle earlier this week, a man (not dressed as a woman) entered a women's locker room at the pool and proceeded to undress thanks to a ridiculous law where we're not supposed to question if the person is supposed to be there or not.  They're allowed to go to the bathroom of the gender they identify with, even if they haven't had reassignment surgery.  I'm not concerned about transgender people being in bathrooms.  I'm concerned about perverts pretending to be transgender and taking advantage of laws that are meant to protect the feelings of transgender people while ignoring the feelings of countless sexually abused women who don't need to encounter any naked men in the locker room.  No mother wants any man leering at her daughters  All feelings need to be considered and I think any decent transgender person would understand and try to compromise in these situations.   Most women are not OK with a naked man being in a locker room or looking at them naked.  If a transgender woman doesn't understand this, then they have a lot to learn about what it is to be a natural born woman! 

[Johnnie Cake]

50 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Doesn't Europe also have a lot of bathroom attendants?

yes you will often find an attendant in some bathrooms in Europe...but not all of them...plus the often charge which is a real problem when you have no cash with you since they don't accept credit cards

[Nevo]

6 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

All feelings need to be considered and I think any decent transgender person would understand and try to compromise in these situations. Most women are not OK with a naked man being in a locker room or looking at them naked.

Many public pools in my area now have family change rooms that don't involve any public nakedness at all. That might be the best solution.

[BlueDreams]

10 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Here in Seattle earlier this week, a man (not dressed as a woman) entered a women's locker room at the pool and proceeded to undress thanks to a ridiculous law where we're not supposed to question if the person is supposed to be there or not.  They're allowed to go to the bathroom of the gender they identify with, even if they haven't had reassignment surgery.  I'm not concerned about transgender people being in bathrooms.  I'm concerned about perverts pretending to be transgender and taking advantage of laws that are meant to protect the feelings of transgender people while ignoring the feelings of countless sexually abused women who don't need to encounter any naked men in the locker room.  No mother wants any man leering at her daughters  All feelings need to be considered and I think any decent transgender person would understand and try to compromise in these situations.   Most women are not OK with a naked man being in a locker room or looking at them naked.  If a transgender woman doesn't understand this, then they have a lot to learn about what it is to be a natural born woman! 

I'd agree, that's why I think having the option for unisex and split sex facilities in the same area would be better than insisting all can use whatever area they want or legislation roundly barring all transgender from entering. 

[Ahab]

There are always going to be rule breakers, and perverts.

I think the best rule on this issue would be to provide a stall available to anybody that gives everyone who uses it enough privacy. 

[california boy]

I think most transgenders will choose the bathroom where they are least likely to be beaten up.  They have a tough row to hoe and physical assaults are a real and constant concern for them.  Passing a law that applies what is legally best for EVERYONE is a difficult thing to do.  Not only having the transgenders that I posted above go to a bathroom based on how they were born be unsafe for them at times, but I think it would be difficult for the other people in the bathroom.  I would certainly rather see the female to male transgender in the mens room than a male to female transgender.  Though I have been to concerts and other big events where women will come into the men's bathrooms because there are long lines for the womans.  No one seemed to care all that much.  I would think men going into a womans bathroom would not be viewed so casually.

Locker rooms are MUCH more difficult to deal with because nudity is involved.  But passing a law might not always be the best solution there either.  Perhaps it is best to leave it up to the club or school where the locker room is at.  A judgement can be made based on individual cases rather than anyone having a legal right one way or the other.

In the gym that I go to, there is a man in transition.  She is taking hormones which is giving his body breasts, but she still has male genitalia.  The club has a policy that you go to the locker room matching your genitalia.  That seems like a good solution.  If the person is uncomfortable dressing in the mens locker room with breasts, then they don't have to dress there.  They can change at home.  If they do feel comfortable, then they are welcome to use the male locker room.  No one seems to mind that she is there. They can clearly see that she was a male at one time.  

These issues can be worked out without all the hype and fear that often surrounds this issue.

 

 

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

I think most transgenders will choose the bathroom where they are least likely to be beaten up.  They have a tough row to hoe and physical assaults are a real and constant concern for them.  Passing a law that applies what is legally best for EVERYONE is a difficult thing to do.  Not only having the transgenders that I posted above go to a bathroom based on how they were born be unsafe for them at times, but I think it would be difficult for the other people in the bathroom.  I would certainly rather see the female to male transgender in the mens room than a male to female transgender.  Though I have been to concerts and other big events where women will come into the men's bathrooms because there are long lines for the womans.  No one seemed to care all that much.  I would think men going into a womans bathroom would not be viewed so casually.

Locker rooms are MUCH more difficult to deal with because nudity is involved.  But passing a law might not always be the best solution there either.  Perhaps it is best to leave it up to the club or school where the locker room is at.  A judgement can be made based on individual cases rather than anyone having a legal right one way or the other.

In the gym that I go to, there is a man in transition.  She is taking hormones which is giving his body breasts, but she still has male genitalia.  The club has a policy that you go to the locker room matching your genitalia.  That seems like a good solution.  If the person is uncomfortable dressing in the mens locker room with breasts, then they don't have to dress there.  They can change at home.  If they do feel comfortable, then they are welcome to use the male locker room.  No one seems to mind that she is there. They can clearly see that she was a male at one time.  

These issues can be worked out without all the hype and fear that often surrounds this issue.

 

 

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place...that would be very difficult. 

[california boy]

I have a question that pretains to this isssue.  Do women feel they are in a private space when they are using one of the stalls?