Reverence In The Chapel...i Feel Like A Fossil

[bluebell]

 

As a member of the Sunday School Presidency, my pet peeve is the adults who skip Sunday School to hang out in the halls, or conduct presidency meetings in the cultural hall.

 

They probably prefer a ward where such is accepted

[cinepro]

Cinepro, OK, if I understand you I hear you say that talking and socializing during the prelude music is a good thing. What say you about the Prophet telling us to treat the chapel as we would the Temple?

I don't begrudge Church leaders their desire for members to be reverent and be quiet before Sacrament meeting starts. From a member's perspective, I disagree that a little conversation with the people around me before the meeting is a bad thing. I'm not saying we should be dancing jigs and telling dirty jokes. We should save that for the third hour.

[JLHPROF]

If all I ever heard during the prelude music was the chatter of little children I would not be that concerned, They are kids. As I said before, I am talking about the adults only.

 

I agree with you.  And it's not just at sacrament meeting.  It's a societally deep problem.

 

You see it on temple grounds.  You see it at LDS weddings.  You see it during sacrament (people checking FB on their phones).  You see it with the way people approach almost every area of the gospel.  You see it EVERYWHERE.  But fortunately you don't see it with EVERYONE.

 

The old saying has really become true - "is nothing sacred anymore".

[JLHPROF]

I believe the next generation will not have this problem. As I observe today's youth in church, they are all bowing their heads, arms and hands in their laps and are quietly and anxiously engaged in a diligent focus on their cell phones.

 

And checking Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Pinterest, Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board...oh wait.

[Duncan]

We have a huge ward with 200 primary kids and 100 youth.  I can say that it is clearly the adults that are the primary offenders in the pre-Sacrament Meeting noise in our ward.  

 

Another big problem- our chapel and cultural hall looks like an absolute disaster after our Sacrament meetings.  I am at a loss as to how to teach effectively the concept of fully respecting the church building, especially the chapel.  It really bothers me.

 

yeah, um maybe just announce over the pulpit 'your kids you're mess to clean up!'

[strappinglad]

Maybe we need the Bishop to stand up with a vuvuzela or a claxon or maybe just a flag to signal the time to stop the racket and focus. My ward has the advantage of a pipe organ that can blow the back doors open if needed.

[Raingirl]

If all I ever heard during the prelude music was the chatter of little children I would not be that concerned, They are kids. As I said before, I am talking about the adults only.

My experience and concerns are similar. The children generally don't bother me. It's the adults using sacrament meeting as social hour....talking non- stop....using their phones for everything but scriptures....I would go on but my lunch break is about to end.

I feel like I've been the oddball since my conversion in 2011 in that I like to get there early and get into that "zone" before the meeting starts. And I actually pay attention to what's going on in the meeting.

It might not be an old-fogey desire, though. In my first Ward, a wonderful young also commented on the lack of reverence.

[Raingirl]

I don't begrudge Church leaders their desire for members to be reverent and be quiet before Sacrament meeting starts. From a member's perspective, I disagree that a little conversation with the people around me before the meeting is a bad thing. I'm not saying we should be dancing jigs and telling dirty jokes. We should save that for the third hour.

There's always room for a little conversation but when the bishopric can't start the meeting because they can't get people to shut up....not good. Even less good when the chatter continues non-stop during the meeting.

I loved it back in my Orthodox Jewish days when the rabbi simply stopped right in the middle of a sentence and stayed silent until the message got across. Of course, in the soul, the men were the worst offenders.

[katherine the great]

I have. I fact I have spoken to all 5 of them over the years. They just tell me that "Yes, we should be more reverent, but that we are a sociable people." Then nothing happens.

 

I believe that the chapel is a sacred place, just as sacred as the Temple. Why do we respect Heavenly Father in the Temple and not the chapel? In the LDS.com article "Reverence for Sacred Places" it says we should treat the chapel as we treat the Temple.

 

A few years ago we had a Stake Conference and Elder Bednar was in attendance. He commented to the Stake Presidencly that he was disturbed by all of the talking that went on before the meeting during the prelude music. Nothing changed in the weeks after that and the talking and socializing continues to this day.

 

Have we forgotten that the chapel is also a "House of the Lord"?

Frankly, I envision a lot of people chatting away lovingly in the Lord's house. I never expect people to quiet in my house--unless someone is sleeping or if one person is addressing everyone.  He created us to be the most social of creatures!  I expect people to be quiet during the meeting, but I'm not bothered by chatting before or after the meeting.

Edited January 22, 2015 by katherine the great

[Tacenda]

Frankly, I envision a lot of people chatting away lovingly in the Lord's house. I never expect people to quiet in my house--unless someone is sleeping or if one person is addressing everyone. He created us to be the most social of creatures! I expect people to be quiet during the meeting, but I'm not bothered by chatting before or after the meeting.

Pretty much agree! Last week it was funny to hear my college aged son get mad about the adults talking during a youth speaker, usually it's me getting mad.

[Rain]

Cinepro, OK, if I understand you I hear you say that talking and socializing during the prelude music is a good thing. What say you about the Prophet telling us to treat the chapel as we would the Temple?

 

 

Some do! Like the sisters sitting in the celestial room near me gossiping about so and so getting a divorce.

[Traela]

People talk in the chapel for one simple reason: it's where we can see everyone who has come that day. My building now has four entrances. Good luck grabbing someone before they get to the chapel. After church, everyone is scrambling to gather up the family. And you can talk all you want about communicating outside of church, but some people are just hard to get a hold of. Or you know their health is bad so they won't stay past Sacrament meeting, so you have to check on them right then.

However, that does not even begin to excuse talking during the meeting.

[Classic Mormon Mom]

It may be too late to add to this discussion, but the Ezra Taft Benson lesson #20 is "Feed My Sheep" and stresses fellowishipping and befriending others especially new and weaker Saints. It includes a photo of folks *gulp* talking in the benches to each other. Two observations - what is your focus? Is it inward, about yourself or are you your brother's keeper and looking to love, connect and befriend? How you tend to focus, either outward or inward and what your overall objectives are will influence your opinion on a topic like this.

Secondly, the architecture of our buildings with small or almost no foyer does not give a place for fellowishipping, greeting, gathering and conversations outside the chapel. In Utah, were folks live close and go to the same schools, it may be easier. What about areas which are really spread out? Fellowishipping at church is often the only place you run into others and the warmth of congregation is vital to a ward's health. If we want more reverence in the chapel, then we need to provide a natural spot and flow for interconnection to take place on Sunday, the day most Saints are committed to come. This is the time to be brotherly and love. The Soirit often works through friendly conversations, and hearts are often healed, validated and encouraged by a few kind words.

[stemelbow]

I"ve never really had a tough time tuning out other noises if I want to. And I enjoy being smiley and conversational with people. I don't want to shut people up, really. I like to see them and hear from them, whether in Sacrament or elsewhere.

[Gray]

I don't think we should try to discourage socialization among the members before and between meetings. Socialization is a big key to retention and activity 

[filovirus]

I brought this issue up in Ward Council a couple of months ago. I mentioned a few things on how to increase reverence before sacrament meeting starts. Dimming the lights. Young women as ushers. Having the ward council members take church business items into the foyer. The bishop came up to me afterward and said thanks for the input. But alas, no change.

 

So now I just do my part. My wife and I separate our three kids from each other (ages 11, 8, 5) and we sit reverently until service starts. I do take my socializing into the foyer if someone approaches me to make chit chat or if I need to coordinate church business. Other than that, I try to prepare myself and my family for the service. It can get distracting when adults around me are noisy. I've just chalked it up to "this is how it is going to be."

Edited September 24, 2015 by filovirus

[bsjkki]

Thank you Classic Mormon Mom! I agree with your comments completely. The sisters in my ward are lonely and a friendly "hello" can help. My ward has a lot of turnover and it is so important people feel welcomed to church and fellowshipped. As a ward, we are constantly trying to build ties and connections. It is a huge challenge. Sunday meetings are not designed with opportunities to socialize. For some, it is the only time they see people from their ward and chatting in the foyer is not an option after church if another ward is meeting in the chapel.

[rockpond]

I don't want ward members to NOT warmly greet each other as they come into the Chapel before Sacrament meeting.  So I think there does need to be some talking during the prelude music.  It's when the prelude music ends that the talking needs to stop.

 

We've found that by decreasing the volume of the organ, we can get people to talk more quietly.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thread necromancy alert!

 

But since this thread has been resurrected, I'll add my opinion that using the need for "socialization" as a rationalization for the din and occasional raucousness that occurs in the chapel before and after a worship service is a crock. There is plenty of opportunity for that in the foyers, halls and on the grounds of the meetinghouse. Warmth and fellowship can be exuded with an attitude of reverence in a worshipful setting as well as with talking and joviality elsewhere.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't want ward members to NOT warmly greet each other as they come into the Chapel before Sacrament meeting.  So I think there does need to be some talking during the prelude music.  It's when the prelude music ends that the talking needs to stop.

 

We've found that by decreasing the volume of the organ, we can get people to talk more quietly.

They shouldn't be drowning out the organ in any event.

[jkwilliams]

They shouldn't be drowning out the organ in any event.

 

Depends on how good the organist is.

[Scott Lloyd]

Depends on how good the organist is.

Touche!

[rockpond]

They shouldn't be drowning out the organ in any event.

 

I agree... we actually experimented and found that the congregation seems to come up/down to the level of the organ volume (whether we had the organist adjust higher or lower).

 

I imagine that our ward occasionally exceeds the volume of the organ (hard to tell when sitting on the stand) which is something we're working on.  We accept some level of noise as normal greeting chit chat but we'd like members to be able to sit and listen to the prelude music as well.  It's something we're working on.  Our ward also has roughly 120 active primary kids so "reverence" for us is on slightly different terms than in some other wards.

Edited September 24, 2015 by rockpond

[Bob Crockett]

Those who are upset with the lack of reverence have probably not spent much time in other churches.  It is absurdly different and much more noisier there.   And, the LDS churches I've attended in Brazil seem to have no conception of reverence.

 

All too often we get all up in arms about "reverence" when, in fact, that term has almost nothing to due with quietude.  I don't see anything in the scriptures. 

 

Further, it is altogether the case that when a new bishopric wants to make a change in a ward, the easiest thing to attack, rather than poverty, lack of education, lack of activity and so forth, is the level of noise right before sacrament meeting.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[Scott Lloyd]

Those who are upset with the lack of reverence have probably not spent much time in other churches.  It is absurdly different and much more noisier there.   And, the LDS churches I've attended in Brazil seem to have no conception of reverence.

 

 

When did the way things are done in other churches become the benchmark for how we should behave? I agree with the concept of "holy envy" and all that, but raucousness before worship services doesn't strike me as an apt object for holy envy.

 

All too often we get all up in arms about "reverence" when, in fact, that term has almost nothing to due with quietude.

 

Actually, I don't see much getting "up in arms" about it very often. I do see the occasional admonition.

 

And depending on the circumstances, quietude is indeed an expression of reverence. It is largely born of consideration and respect for others, who may be striving to feel the Spirit and might find ambient noise distracting in that respect.

 

Of course, "reverence is more than just quietly sitting," as the Primary song states, and there are occasions when silence could be regarded as irreverent: Hymn singing, the uttering of an audible "amen" after a prayer or testimony, the Hosanna Shout at temple dedications are three examples that come to mind.

 

 

 I don't see anything in the scriptures.

 

Surely you don't believe that all truth and inspiration is contained in the scriptures. My understanding is we do not hold to the sola scriptura dogma.

 

 

Further, it is altogether the case that when a new bishopric wants to make a change in a ward, the easiest thing to attack, rather than poverty, lack of education, lack of activity and so forth, is the level of noise right before sacrament meeting.

 

 

Do the one and don't leave the other undone.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd