Reverence In The Chapel...i Feel Like A Fossil

[bluebell]

Thread necromancy alert!

 

But since this thread has been resurrected, I'll add my opinion that using the need for "socialization" as a rationalization for the din and occasional raucousness that occurs in the chapel before and after a worship service is a crock. There is plenty of opportunity for that in the foyers, halls and on the grounds of the meetinghouse. Warmth and fellowship can be exuded with an attitude of reverence in a worshipful setting as well as with talking and joviality elsewhere.

 

There's not always plenty of space or time to visit though.  My ward building has three wards in it and so both before and after church there is no place to visit with anyone inside the building.  Outside is probably an option i suppose, except during extremes of weather, which is probably more than half the year.

 

I do wish that those in charge of chapel design would take this issue into consideration and make a building plan that was more conducive to fellowshipping with the Saints on Sunday.

[Calm]

We just went to four wards in our area. Another building won't be built until there is at least one more ward and another ward ready to form. Iow in order to get a new building, one needs to have the three wards ready to fill it.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

There's not always plenty of space or time to visit though.  My ward building has three wards in it and so both before and after church there is no place to visit with anyone inside the building.  Outside is probably an option i suppose, except during extremes of weather, which is probably more than half the year.

 

I do wish that those in charge of chapel design would take this issue into consideration and make a building plan that was more conducive to fellowshipping with the Saints on Sunday.

Reverence becomes even more of an issue where there are multiple wards in the building with overlapping schedules.

 

As ward choir director, about once a month, I come early to sacrament meeting in case some members of the choir need help with a part or need to warm up. I have observed occasions when attendees from the other ward's sacrament meeting are still conversing rather loudly in the chapel even after the prelude music for our meeting has begun and our ward members have begun to assemble. At this point, it is long past time for the lingerers to have gone to their own Sunday School or other classes or, if they are visitors, to have vacated the chapel in consideration of the next ward to be meeting there.

[rpn]

Next Fast Meeting bear your testimony of the power of just being still during the prelude and how you got confirmation by the Holy Ghost of Elder Bednar's counsel to _________________________ [whatever his words were] when he said them and have since felt the power brought by heeding the counsel.   Do not make any comments about anyone in your ward.  

 

Yes, I really struggle with trying to rassle grandkids while the sisters chat up their non-member mother instead of setting the example of what the time is for.

[Bob Crockett]

Well, then I reduce my comment to:  reverence is not quietude.  

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, then I reduce my comment to:  reverence is not quietude.  

It would be better to say, "Reverence is more than quietude."

[The Nehor]

It would be better to say, "Reverence is more than quietude."

By this standard the Hosanna shout is irreverent.

[Scott Lloyd]

By this standard the Hosanna shout is irreverent.

Well go ahead and phrase it how you like. I'm just trying to help Bob out.

 

It's not accurate to say, "Reverence is not quietude" when quietude very often is an element of reverence.

[Bob Crockett]

More important than reverence should be an effort to improve the quality of meetings.  That is different for every ward and locale, but it could include (1) fewer speakers, (2) speakers given notice months in advance, (3) training or counsel to speakers in advance not to make jokes about the ward clerk calling him or her to speak, the lack or greatness of notice, the lack of preparation etc., (4) focus upon doctrine and scripture and less on personal experience; (5) reduce thankamony sermons; (6) ending on time; (7) consideration for other speakers' time, ( reduction of sports analogies, and, to repeat ( focus on doctrine, statements of living prophets, scripture and stuff like that.  

 

In my ward I've seen urged the elimination of (1) written programs, (2) sermonettes before and after the speakers by the bishopric, (3) no electronic devices seen in the hands of the bishopric, to greater and lesser degrees of success. 

 

But lists like this are perceived to be officious, something a lawyer would make up.  But quietude has really little to do with the doctrine.

[PeterPear]

Malachi 3:16

I visited a ward in Louisville (l don't live in UT) known for its turnover of Dental students. My friend remarked that often a new student and/or his/her spouse will get up in Fast & Testimony mtg and make a remark along the lines, "Now we know why we were accepted to only this one Dental School so so far from home and family! We've been sent here by Him to help and train you in your callings and in how to run a ward!"

After returning home from KY, I told my Bishop of this comment. He knowingly rolled his eyes, "yep, UT Mormons."

Talk about irreverent.

[Scott Lloyd]

More important than reverence should be an effort to improve the quality of meetings.  That is different for every ward and locale, but it could include (1) fewer speakers, (2) speakers given notice months in advance, (3) training or counsel to speakers in advance not to make jokes about the ward clerk calling him or her to speak, the lack or greatness of notice, the lack of preparation etc., (4) focus upon doctrine and scripture and less on personal experience; (5) reduce thankamony sermons; (6) ending on time; (7) consideration for other speakers' time, ( reduction of sports analogies, and, to repeat ( focus on doctrine, statements of living prophets, scripture and stuff like that.  

 

In my ward I've seen urged the elimination of (1) written programs, (2) sermonettes before and after the speakers by the bishopric, (3) no electronic devices seen in the hands of the bishopric, to greater and lesser degrees of success. 

 

But lists like this are perceived to be officious, something a lawyer would make up.  But quietude has really little to do with the doctrine.

Some of this stuff is indeed officious. Electronic devices? Give me a break. Whoever is making an issue of that ought to be told to mind his/her own business. This is is the first time I've seen printed programs being spoken of negatively. And the "sermonettes" ought to be the prerogative of the bishop as moved upon by the Spirit.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

Quietude is often mistaken as reverence and I understand the desire for quiet but I don't think it should be the focus. Sunday is the one day we join together to worship in a community. A community doesn't sit quietly, never speaking a word to others in effort to remain quiet/reverent. The community piece of worship should be celebrated and enjoyed. We can have all the quiet contemplation and worship time we want...on our own. Hopefully we're worshipping daily with our families and individually. Reverence will likely look different in that environment than in a large community at church.

 

I think we should enjoy each other at church. Sure, there's a time for quiet, like during the sacrament, and it's respectful to have a level of quiet during talks and lessons. But that same level of quiet should not be required between classes, or prior to and after services. We should enjoy the community aspect of worship.

[Bob Crockett]

Some of this stuff is indeed officious. Electronic devices? Give me a break. Whoever is making an issue of that ought to be told to mind his/her own business. This is is the first time I've seen printed programs being spoken of negatively. An the "sermonettes" ought to be the prerogative of the bishop as moved upon by the Spirit.

 

The point here is that an insistence upon quietude is an insistence upon quietude as its own objective, not to "revere" God.  Yes, quietude is nice for old farts.  [i'd be interested to read GC sermons telling the Saints to be quiet in sacrament meeting.]  Let's get off the quietude kick and instead focus upon good sermons.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[CA Steve]

The point here is that an insistence upon quietude is an insistence upon quietude as its own objective, not to "revere" God.  Yes, quietude is nice for old farts.  [i'd be interested to read GC sermons telling the Saints to be quiet in sacrament meeting.]  Let's get off the quietude kick and instead focus upon good sermons.

I see a lot of people who are quiet in sacrament meeting, whose heads are nodding either because they are falling asleep or reading their latest text. The fact that people are not making noise is not indicative of attention to what is going on. We need to worry about interest levels, not noise levels.

[bluebell]

The point here is that an insistence upon quietude is an insistence upon quietude as its own objective, not to "revere" God.  Yes, quietude is nice for old farts.  [i'd be interested to read GC sermons telling the Saints to be quiet in sacrament meeting.]  Let's get off the quietude kick and instead focus upon good sermons.

 

Do believe this applies to the temple as well?  That they insist on quiet for quiet's sake and not to revere God and that only old people appreciate quiet anyway?

 

I like the idea of focusing on good sermons.  But i HATE the idea of doing away with personal experience in favor of just reading more scriptures out loud.  I think that would be the death of sacrament meeting talks.  

[Scott Lloyd]

The point here is that an insistence upon quietude is an insistence upon quietude as its own objective, not to "revere" God.  Yes, quietude is nice for old farts.  [i'd be interested to read GC sermons telling the Saints to be quiet in sacrament meeting.]  Let's get off the quietude kick and instead focus upon good sermons.

I submit that there's no way you can know without peering into the mind and heart of a person that he/she is insisting "upon quietude as its own objective."

 

 [i'd be interested to read GC sermons telling the Saints to be quiet in sacrament meeting.]

 

Well, I just undertook a Google search, and in the very first hit I clicked on, I found this from Boyd K. Packer:

 

 

When we meet to learn the doctrines of the gospel, it should be in a spirit of reverence. It is about reverence and how it relates to revelation that I wish to speak.

Inspiration comes more easily in peaceful settings. Such words as quiet, still, peaceable, Comforter abound in the scriptures: “Be still, and know that I am God.” (Ps. 46:10; italics added.) And the promise, “You shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom.” (D&C 36:2; italics added.)

 

Edited September 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[cynth]

Those who are upset with the lack of reverence have probably not spent much time in other churches.  It is absurdly different and much more noisier there.   And, the LDS churches I've attended in Brazil seem to have no conception of reverence.

 

All too often we get all up in arms about "reverence" when, in fact, that term has almost nothing to due with quietude.  I don't see anything in the scriptures. 

 

Further, it is altogether the case that when a new bishopric wants to make a change in a ward, the easiest thing to attack, rather than poverty, lack of education, lack of activity and so forth, is the level of noise right before sacrament meeting.

I have had exactly the opposite experience, have you actually attended other services?  my husband is Catholic, and I have attended more than 4 other parishes multiple times, plus many others occasionally, and I have never had your experience.  I have found reverence pre-, during, and post-services, and I have NEVER ONCE seen an electronic device out during a Catholic service. 

 

When my Catholic relatives accompany me to Mormon services, I always have to warn them in advance of the bizarrely excessive noise level, the massive and constant food consumption, the ubiquitous use of electronic devices, adult and youth alike, the excessive touching among all sexes and ages(back rubs, neck rubs, head rubs, hair stroking, etc.), and the likelihood that children and babies will be louder than the miked speaker, with no effort from parents to prevent disruptions.  Invariably, they are quite shaken and in utter shock when we leave a meeting.  I keep getting asked, why are Mormons, youth and adults alike, so immature? Why are they so disrespectful of God?  I have no answer. 

 

So yes, I do agree with one of your comments, compared to Mormon irreverence, other services are indeed absurdly different.  How did this culture arise?  Why is this behavior considered acceptable? 

[Bob Crockett]

I have had exactly the opposite experience, have you actually attended other services?  my husband is Catholic, and I have attended more than 4 other parishes multiple times, plus many others occasionally, and I have never had your experience.  I have found reverence pre-, during, and post-services, and I have NEVER ONCE seen an electronic device out during a Catholic service. 

 

When my Catholic relatives accompany me to Mormon services, I always have to warn them in advance of the bizarrely excessive noise level, the massive and constant food consumption, the ubiquitous use of electronic devices, adult and youth alike, the excessive touching among all sexes and ages(back rubs, neck rubs, head rubs, hair stroking, etc.), and the likelihood that children and babies will be louder than the miked speaker, with no effort from parents to prevent disruptions.  Invariably, they are quite shaken and in utter shock when we leave a meeting.  I keep getting asked, why are Mormons, youth and adults alike, so immature? Why are they so disrespectful of God?  I have no answer. 

 

So yes, I do agree with one of your comments, compared to Mormon irreverence, other services are indeed absurdly different.  How did this culture arise?  Why is this behavior considered acceptable? 

Well, you're right about Catholic services.  I've seen noisy Protestant services.

 

When I attended some Brazilian LDS services I was amazed that normal conversations were occurring during the sacrament and during services.

[willy1]

In regards to the posting of reverence in Sacrament meeting, the thought that I had was how do we prepare before we enter. Is it listening to uplifting music, spending time with family, praying over the scriptures, listening to a Conference talk? Just a few suggestions on how I have seen help myself be better prepared for the Sacrament and Sacrament meeting. We never know the benefits that could come from the next word spoken in the meeting to answer a question or recognizing a need for improvement. Through this heeding of the words of God through the speakers and church leaders can better prepare us to live with him someday. One last note as we visualize that Jesus Christ is in Sacrament meeting with us through his represented local church leaders we will better show reverence and be an example to those around us.    

[Scott Lloyd]

I have had exactly the opposite experience, have you actually attended other services? my husband is Catholic, and I have attended more than 4 other parishes multiple times, plus many others occasionally, and I have never had your experience. I have found reverence pre-, during, and post-services, and I have NEVER ONCE seen an electronic device out during a Catholic service.

When my Catholic relatives accompany me to Mormon services, I always have to warn them in advance of the bizarrely excessive noise level, the massive and constant food consumption, the ubiquitous use of electronic devices, adult and youth alike, the excessive touching among all sexes and ages(back rubs, neck rubs, head rubs, hair stroking, etc.), and the likelihood that children and babies will be louder than the miked speaker, with no effort from parents to prevent disruptions. Invariably, they are quite shaken and in utter shock when we leave a meeting. I keep getting asked, why are Mormons, youth and adults alike, so immature? Why are they so disrespectful of God? I have no answer.

So yes, I do agree with one of your comments, compared to Mormon irreverence, other services are indeed absurdly different. How did this culture arise? Why is this behavior considered acceptable?

With regard to the use of electronic devices, do you explain to your relatives that the Church of Jesus Christ makes available in electronic format on the Internet all of its scriptures and most of its published instructional material, so those who are using electronic devices at church are likely-as-not using them appropriately? Edited September 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

With regard to the use of electronic devices, do you explain to your relatives that the Church of Jesus Christ makes available in electronic format all of its scriptures and most of its published instructional material, so those who are using electronic devices at church are likely-as-not using them appropriately?

I am usually day trading.

[Kenngo1969]

I am usually day trading.

    You must be rich, then, eh?  Can I have a no-interest loan with exceedingly generous (or loose) repayment terms?  I'll be happy to PM you with all fo the IRL info necessary to make the arrangements.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Jeanne]

Ugh...can anyone do without the darn devices just or an hour??? Gees!  This is the saddest part to me to hear.  We can complain about noise but at least people are actually talking to each other.  I don't own a cell phone or have anything like this stuff so I just must not understand how it must be so important or habit forming it is.  Doesn't anyone ever just feel ignored?  Maybe God does..I just fail to see what is so important about the next text or anything..it can wait. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

Ugh...can anyone do without the darn devices just or an hour??? Gees!  This is the saddest part to me to hear.  We can complain about noise but at least people are actually talking to each other.  I don't own a cell phone or have anything like this stuff so I just must not understand how it must be so important or habit forming it is.  Doesn't anyone ever just feel ignored?  Maybe God does..I just fail to see what is so important about the next text or anything..it can wait.

You're so right Jeanne. Just the other night I was at Olive Garden and saw a couple of couples on their phones, not much communicating going on.

[Ginger Snaps]

*shrug*. I've used my hymn book and scripture app during SM, and I let my kids look at the Friend/New Era. I try to restrict our usage to what I deem appropriate and I don't really care what others choose to do as long as their devices are quiet. It seems like we have a phone ring at least once a month and since a large portion of our ward is elderly, their ringtones are often very loud