$1.5Mn Charity Donation To... A War Museum In America?

[Calm]

Thank you. This delights me

I get to meet a lot of good people through my husband's work.

[volgadon]

and Jordan. Just to name a few.

 

And I could name a few, such as the Arabic translator of Preach My Gospel.

[rodheadlee]

I am joining this discussion very late but would like to add my tuppence worth.

In my view the church has no business at all donating funds to this museum. As a British tithe payer and contributor to what I understand is a worldwide church I feel it is an entirely inappropriate use of sacred funds.

It is high time the church came clean with it's finances. I believe the church has an embarrassment of riches and has had for some time, and that is the reason they keep us in the dark.

The museum of the American Revolution has absolutely no relavance to the majority of church members, given that the majority of saints are not Americans; and are, quite frankly, rather pleased about that.

Still mad that we kicked your butt twice? Had to bail you out of  2 other wars? Well let me tell you something little brother we are the world. We are British, German, Polish, Irish, Italian, Asian, Latin, African, Slavic, Hispanic, Arab, Jew, Pacific Islander etc, we are every race and  every nationality so when you diss America you diss the whole world.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2014 by rodheadlee

[Bikeemikey]

Still mad that we kicked your butt twice? Had to bail you out of 2 other wars? Well let me tell you something little brother we are the world. We are British, German, Polish, Irish, Italian, Asian, Latin, African, Slavic, Hispanic, Arab, Jew, Pacific Islander etc, we are every race and every nationality so when you diss America you diss the whole world.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Perhaps you can tell me why 1 nephi 16-19 only applies to the USA and not for example the Mexican nation, any of the nations in South America, or perhaps Canada, and let I forget, Central America.

[Alan]

Still mad that we kicked your butt twice? Had to bail you out of  2 other wars? Well let me tell you something little brother we are the world. We are British, German, Polish, Irish, Italian, Asian, Latin, African, Slavic, Hispanic, Arab, Jew, Pacific Islander etc, we are every race and  every nationality so when you diss America you diss the whole world.

 

 

 

Whatever.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Alan

[rodheadlee]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Perhaps you can tell me why 1 nephi 16-19 only applies to the USA and not for example the Mexican nation, any of the nations in South America, or perhaps Canada, and let I forget, Central America.

Wooosh! Went right over your head didn't it?

[Alan]

Wooosh! Went right over your head didn't it?

 

Not mine.

[Alan]

Still mad that we kicked your butt twice? Had to bail you out of  2 other wars? Well let me tell you something little brother we are the world. We are British, German, Polish, Irish, Italian, Asian, Latin, African, Slavic, Hispanic, Arab, Jew, Pacific Islander etc, we are every race and  every nationality so when you diss America you diss the whole world.

 

 

 

I see those poor old Native Americans (you know, the ones who were there first) don't merit a mention.

[Bikeemikey]

Wooosh! Went right over your head didn't it?

Guess it did - care to clarify exactly what went over my head?

[rodheadlee]

Guess it did - care to clarify exactly what went over my head?

The blessings don't stop at the border. 

[rodheadlee]

I see those poor old Native Americans (you know, the ones who were there first) don't merit a mention.

That would be under etc, by the way I am part Cherokee. Scotch, Irish, German and Cherokee but John Headlee migrated from England in the late 18th century.

[Bikeemikey]

The blessings don't stop at the border.

Sure... But I don't think they start at a border either.

[Calm]

Perhaps rod feels anything that honours the US honours the rest of the world since we stand on the shoulders so to speak of those countries whose people came to this land keeping the good stuff and together with other created something greater out of the sum of the parts.

If so, it is not a point that I think most Americans dwell much on in my experience. Often it is "you guys wouldn't let us into your "in group" over there so we came over here and made our own better than yours".

And then there are the way too many Americans who would rather just ignore the majority of their heritage not being "native" or dismissing it as the ancient past.

I suppose one can give credit to Britain and other European countries creating the positives of the environment that led to the US wanting to govern themselves in a more independent way, a rebellious teenager that didn't see diplomacy as a quick enough option.

If there is a geneaology tie in to the museum, I think that is one of the quickest ways to get someone to realize how quickly we all tie into other countries and have never stood on our own (no country has IMO since trade began to cross borders).

The whole the US went over and save Europe twice etc. etc. ignores the fact that war was kept from our own lands not so much by our own efforts but by luck (having two oceans to cross) as well as the European countries who fought from the beginning delaying attacks here allowing us to build up resources while theirs were being trashed. Considering how long it took the US to get involved, I don't think there should be any bragging about how great we were to go over to save anyone. How many died while Americans told themselves they didn't want to get involved, it wasn't our fight.

Kicking butt twice, btw..given that the US invaded Canada first in hopes of annexing part of it against the treaty established before, given the US capital was burnt, given the end of the war simply reinforced previous boundaries and given that in England itself that war is looked on as a side issue to the greater Napoleonic wars of the time (got to wonder what would have happened if Britian had all its attention focused on the US at that time) and pretty much forgotten, I think the phrase makes the US look more like a bully than anything else myself.

http://theweek.com/article/index/231328/americas-invasion-of-canada-a-brief-history

" was essentially a stalemate. By late 1814, the U.S. government was almost bankrupt because of the expense of the conflict, while Britain wanted to end what it regarded as a sideshow to the larger war against Napoleon. So on Christmas Eve, 1814, the two sides signed a peace treaty in Ghent (now in Belgium) that restored the prewar borders of the U.S. and Canada, without even mentioning the maritime issues that had started the conflict"

Edited April 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[CV75]

So I ask again, out of that long sequence of historical events, why does just one of them merit special treatment?

None of them would be bad choices -- but your OP was "Is this a good use of funds?" and of course it is -- why do you keep gnawing away at it?

 

Maybe you should be calling for the church to donate $1.5mn to the colosseums of Rome

That's not my approach to alternatives to good choices (yours maybe!).

 

Of all of the lines of argument in this thread I find the one that Cal and others are using (that it fulfills one of the fourfold missions of the church) far more compelling than the one you and kenngo keep gnawing away at.

I agree with that too! (Why on earth would you want to be compelled?)...

[canard78]

I see those poor old Native Americans (you know, the ones who were there first) don't merit a mention.

 

Touché

[canard78]

None of them would be bad choices -- but your OP was "Is this a good use of funds?" and of course it is -- why do you keep gnawing away at it?

That's not my approach to alternatives to good choices (yours maybe!).

"None of them would be bad choices." That was not your original argument. Kenngo said that the American Revolution has special status, elevated above many other steps in the process of the restoration because it gets a mention in the Book of Mormon, something he said only the Apostasy can also claim. You supported this line of reasoning. I've shown, in just one chapter, that they are not the only events in the process referenced in the restoration. You're now acknowledging that apparently. So your argument that the American revolutions merits special treatment doesn't stand.

You say "none of them would be a bad choice." Just to be absolutely clear... you'd be just as happy if the church also gave $1.5mn to, for example, the Slate Valley Quarry Museum (dedicated to the Welsh protestants who emigrated to USA and to the upstate New York area in particular, thereby adding to the religious diversity that created the environment for Joseph's questions). From their website:

 

Religious dissent from the official, state-sponsored Church of England (or Anglican Church) found fertile ground in Wales.  Including such sects as the Baptists, Congregationalists and indigenous Welsh Calvinistic Methodists, Protestant nonconformity was the majority faith of the Welsh nation at the time of the emigration to the Slate Valley. Being outside the established Church, Welsh nonconformists were still forced to pay the hated Church tithe and suffered from a variety of civic and legal penalties.

 

If yes, then you should also expect to hear from the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales. The religious diversity of the protestant emigrants has its root in Europe and we surely need to sustain all of the historical and cultural richness in order to help people better understand the restoration. 

 

If these examples seem to extend in to the ridiculous, perhaps it will help you appreciate how I feel about the argument that a donation to an American war museum can be justified because of its role in the restoration and passing reference in the Book of Mormon.

 

You also said:

 

I agree with that too!

Good. Maybe you can see sense and stop trying to defend the donation based on the importance of the american revolution.

 

(Why on earth would you want to be compelled?)...

 

Haha. It's English and they are two different words.

 

Compelled: force or oblige (someone) to do something

Compelling: evoking interest, attention, or admiration in a powerfully irresistible way.

I suppose your fathers kicking my fathers out should mean I forgive a little limitation in your comprehension of the mother-tongue.

Edited April 28, 2014 by canard78

[canard78]

Not mine.

I just tried to PM you but it seems your inbox is full (it's not accepting messages). Do you need to delete a few?

[bluebell]

Here's a new question to ponder:

If a person, who otherwise sustains the leaders of the church, doesn't believe it was moral (or condoned of God) for the church to donate to the museum, what should that person do or not do about it?

Since none of us have any say about this donation, and none of us have any power to change it, maybe it would be more productive at this point to discuss what we believe God expects of us moving forward.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What a waste of a thread.

[canard78]

What a waste of a thread.

It's ok... I really don't mind if you completely ignore it.

[Tacenda]

It's ok... I really don't mind if you completely ignore it.

It'd be nice to have a suggestion box set out for and from the church leaders, or just a place to air our concerns.  Remember those boxes our teachers would put out in school?  Or did you have that?  Haha.  Why the heck do we sustain people in callings?  Our opinions matter.     

[bluebell]

It'd be nice to have a suggestion box set out for and from the church leaders, or just a place to air our concerns.  Remember those boxes our teachers would put out in school?  Or did you have that?  Haha.  Why the heck do we sustain people in callings?  Our opinions matter.     

 

I agree that our opinions matter, but sometimes i think we believe that they matter way more than they actually do.  

[Scott Lloyd]

But really, so what? It gets mentioned in the Book of Mormon. It's a moment in history. I know it matters a great deal to you Americans. You pop some fireworks about it once a year and feel proud but the mention of it in the BoM doesn't make it some sacred calf to worship.

It was a functional step in bringing the USA its independence from UK. It isn't some holy moment that needs to be worshipped.

Popping back into this thread ever once in a while, I'm just as firmly convinced that this thread definitely possibly doesn't stem from a nationalistic axe to grind.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[MorningStar]

If God inspired church leaders to donate to this, then He must have a good reason for it. 

[CV75]

"None of them would be bad choices."

That's right, and I think you’re gnawing… I also think the choice is a good one from several standpoints including its mention in the Book of Mormon. That none of the other prophecies in the Book of Mormon are bad to recognize or that all are good to recognize doesn’t take away from the merits of this choice.

Just to be absolutely clear... you'd be just as happy if the church also gave $1.5mn to, for example... appreciate how I feel

Yes, I would be just as happy. Your examples are also good to recognize, but it seems you started this thread to validate your feelings or to get people to empathize with you (funny way of going about it!). Personal feelings are not rational, so no rational justification will assuage them.

Good. Maybe you can see sense and stop trying to defend the donation based on the importance of the american revolution.

There is no need for me to stop! The importance of the American Revolution is both rationally explained and spiritually identified. Note that spirituality is also irrational, but the Church will always find and render support on that basis as well as rational bases.

Haha. It's English and they are two different words.

 

Compelled: force or oblige (someone) to do something

Compelling: evoking interest, attention, or admiration in a powerfully irresistible way.

OK Profesor Higgins, you need a remedial course (Where's Pickering?)! One’s an adjective and one’s a verb; the common root for both words is, “pel’ meaning “to push.” So ha-ha! LOL

I suppose your fathers kicking my fathers out should mean I forgive a little limitation in your comprehension of the mother-tongue.

Unfortunately, this demonstrates the irrationality of your position, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself except it sets you up for dissonance with rational arguments... P.S. My fathers weren’t anywhere near the colonies at the time of the American Revolution, so you imagination is governed by your prejudices (or is it the otehr way around?).