$1.5Mn Charity Donation To... A War Museum In America?

[Kenngo1969]

You also ignored the list I shared that was straight from the text of 1 Nep 13. There's a long list of world history in that chapter. Your suggestion that only the apostasy and the revolution have special historical status in the BoM was shown to be incorrect in just one chapter. ...

OK.  Congratulations! (Or ... something ... )

 

P.S.: I'm sure you're about to show me where irrigation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, are all discussed in The Book of Mormon, too, right?

Edited April 29, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[cdowis]

Having lived in Zion as well as out in the "Mission Field" (CT, NY, WA, CO, LA, etc...)  I've noticed that not all wards really pay much attention to July 24th.  I'm sure there were wards that had a picnic or something but I just don't recall.

 

 

 

 

Here in Georgia, someone wrote a play about the history of the church in the state, and put on the play.  That was a great spiritual experience to show the "pioneers" of the church here in this state.

[Kenngo1969]

Here in Georgia, someone wrote a play about the history of the church in the state, and put on the play.  That was a great spiritual experience to show the "pioneers" of the church here in this state.

"Pioneering" is less about geography than it is about spirit.  My sister-in-law, as the first member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in her family and as an immigrant to the United States, is a pioneer.

[cdowis]

This is a straw man, Scott Lloyd is doing the same. Where have I suggested that history is unimportant?

 

 

I was specifically addressing your question in the OP, and I quote:

 

It's a genuine question and I concern I've been wrestling with. Are these the sorts of projects the church should be supporting? You can only spend a dollar once. Given it can only spent once, is a war museum the most beneficial charitable use for the funds?

 

I don't know whether it has been taken from tithing or other activities. Does it matter? If it is money available to donate to a charity, is this a good choice?

 

 

Yes, I believe it is.

Edited April 29, 2014 by cdowis

[CV75]

Then you've invalidated your argument. If you feel the Welsh chapel preservation society is just as valid a recipient

All I said is that I would be happy—there you go, confounding feelings with rational justification.

If I were looking for validation there are several other boards I could go to. As it happens I use a range of Mormon boards to test my conclusions.

I said emotional validation – there you go again, confounding it with rational conclusions!

I'm impressed (for an American). Thank you for the lesson. As it happens, you need a second 's' in Professor and I'm not sure what the word "otehr" means.

I realise this is a dangerous game to play.

It was only a test—you missed the use of an ‘ (apostrophe) instead of a ” (right quotation mark) in “pel”… LOL

[rodheadlee]

Ok here it again with the words.

 

 

 

Every body sing along, you all have a little American in you.

[Scott Lloyd]

When I was a primary kid we talked about the pioneers often.  Do they still do that today?  I haven't been in a primary class in a long long time.

 

I wonder if talk of the Utah pioneers has lessened?  If so, then non-interest or should I say, non-appreciation for July 24th could be a function of how much one knows about the sacrifices it took to get to Utah. 

 

I've not been in Primary for many years either, but a quick Google search of lds.org brings up this lesson from a Primary manual.

 

It is as good as or better than anything I remember being taught in Primary about the Pioneers.

 

I should think that if a teacher were to present this lesson conscientiously and not omit or dilute it due to unwarranted nationalism, regional prejudice, apathy, ignorance or other reasons, a child would be apt to come away from the class with a very rich understanding and appreciation for the Pioneers and the heritage they left all of us.

 

And in the Children's Songbook we still have selections such as this.

 

And this.

 

And this.

 

And this.

 

And, of course, one of my favorites from childhood (although I prefer the traditional words that were actually sung by the handcart pioneers to today's rewrite),

Edited April 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[CV75]

I know people have hangups when it comes to any emphasis on Mormon pioneers, but that part of Church history provides so many valuable lessons about how the Lord deals with His people, especially converts, whichthe pioneers were. Those later converts and memebrs born in the Church who are able to discern and are comfortable with being a pioneer in their own right will appreciate that emphasis and what is gained by the pioneers' example. The celebration may be a "Utah" thing (and recognized in some of the units of the Church in "the mission field", at least where I've lived), but the lessons are universal.

[Scott Lloyd]

Now you're going to tell me what I "should" find important?

 

Well, yes. That's pretty much the essence of what we do in the Church. In talks, lessons, music, meetings, conferences, personal conversations, articles, books, videos, computer software, websites, scriptures, etc., we constantly instruct and remind each other about what is important and what we should have appreciation for. Heaven help us if we ever lose sight of that responsibility.

 

[Edited to add this afterthought:] Isn't this very thread a manifestation of your endeavor to tell me and others what we should find important?

 

If it were so important I'm sure the area presidency would send a message encouraging Europe to get involved. As it is, they don't mention it either.

 

 

You're getting me wrong. I'm not saying you need to have a full-scale celebration on the order of what is done in Utah communities. I'm not  saying you have to have any celebration at all. If the wards and branches were to have an occasional lesson as outlined in Church curricula or give attention to the occasional article in Church periodicals, I would be content.

 

Perhaps your area presidency sees no need to put out such an appeal as you suggest because they know what's already contained in the correlated instructional materials provided by the Church. I've already linked to a very good lesson in the Primary manual. I'm sure I could easily find other such examples if I wanted to put the time into it.

 

As Alan pointed out, 24th has no more significance to a none Utahn (especially a non American) than any other date in the process of the growth of the church. We tend to do some sort of father/son activity around the time of the priesthood restoration. That's possibly one of the only historical dates that has a "marker" that I can think of (I guess the April conference counts). That even seems to have fallen by the wayside the last few years.

 

So you keep indicating. And as I said, to the extent that's true, more's the pity. President Uchtdorf and "seeing beyond the leaf" and all.

 

How about an event to remember the first missionary arriving in UK? Do you mark that day? And if you do I'd imagine you're a minority. Given the large number of British saints who became pioneers isn't that an important day in the history.

Over the years, I have written or have been involved in the preparation of articles highlighting the history of the Church in the British Isles, including the beginning of missionary work there.

 

I recall doing a memorable article on the port city of Liverpool, its importance in the history of British Latter-day Saint immigration, and the Church members and units that are there today. I remember a rather lengthy trans-oceanic interview I did with a stake president there, a man who still ranks among the most impressive Church members I've ever met. (By the way, he owned a rather large home that he named "Nauvoo House" because he wanted it to be a place of hospitality and refuge for travelers and people in need. There's an appreciation of early Church history for you!)

 

I'm always thrilled to hear of events such as new temple construction, creation of new stakes and missions, etc. in the British Isles. As I said, I have a genealogical heritage from Wales, England and Scotland of which I am ever mindful.

 

I can tell you this: If my background were different, if I lived outside of Utah and if I had not been born and reared here, I still would feel inclined to appreciate and celebrate the events of the 1847 exodus to the Salt Lake Valley and the four-decade pioneer movement that transpired thereafter as a legacy that belonged to me as much as any other member of the Church, regardless of place of residence.

 

 

Would you find it odd if I were saddened by you not making a big deal and having a celebration every year on that day?

 

Yes, but as I said, I don't expect you to celebrate July 24 annually, despite the importance to the Church generally of the events marked by that date.

 

But my hunch is that, by and large, the Saints in the UK do very well in this regard. When the Pioneer Sesquicentennial was held back in 1996-97, the commemorative wagon/handcart trek from Council Bluffs (Kanesville), Iowa to Salt Lake City included the memorable participation of a family of British Church members who brought a handcart across the Atlantic from their home.

 

 

I'm not saying that the pioneers are of no importance to me at all. I recognise their place in the progress of the church but I don't find them of more significance than lots of other events in the process.

 

Well, I must say, I'm underwhelmed.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I know people have hangups when it comes to any emphasis on Mormon pioneers, but that part of Church history provides so many valuable lessons about how the Lord deals with His people, especially converts, whichthe pioneers were. Those later converts and memebrs born in the Church who are able to discern and are comfortable with being a pioneer in their own right will appreciate that emphasis and what is gained by the pioneers' example. The celebration may be a "Utah" thing (and recognized in some of the units of the Church in "the mission field", at least where I've lived), but the lessons are universal.

Yes.

 

A study and memorialization of the Mormon pioneer saga is every bit as important to our identity and self-concept as the covenant people of God as is a study of ancient Israel in the Old Testament.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

Well, yes. That's pretty much the essence of what we do in the Church. In talks, lessons, music, meetings, conferences, articles, books, videos, computer software, scriptures, etc., we constantly instruct and remind each other about what is important and what we should have appreciation for. Heaven help us if we ever lose sight of that responsibility.

You're getting me wrong. I'm not saying you need to have a full-scale celebration on the order of what is done in Utah communities. I'm not saying you have to have any celebration at all. If the wards and branches were to have an occasional lesson as outlined in Church curricula or give attention to the occasional article in Church periodicals, I would be content.

Perhaps your area presidency sees not need to put out such an appeal as you suggest because they know what's already contained in the correlated instructional materials provided by the Church. I've already linked to a very good lesson in the Primary manual. I'm sure I could easily find other such examples if I wanted to put the time into it.

So you keep indicating. And as I said, more's the pity.

Over the years, I have written or have been involved in the preparation of articles highlighting the history of the Church in the British Isles, including the beginning of missionary work there.

I recall doing a memorable article on the city of Liverpool, its importance in the history of British Latter-day Saint immigration, and the Church members and units who live there today. I remember a rather lengthy trans-oceanic interview I did with a stake president there, a man who still ranks among the most impressive Church members I've ever met. (By the way, he owned a rather large home that he named "Nauvoo House" because he wanted it to be a place of hospitality and refuge for travelers and people in need. There's an appreciation of early Church history for you!)

I'm always thrilled to hear of events such as new temple construction, creation of new stakes and missions, etc. in the British Isles. As I said, I have a genealogical heritage from Wales, England and Scotland of which I am ever mindful.

Yes, but as I said, I don't expect you to celebrate July 24 annually, despite the importance to the Church generally of the events marked by that date.

But my hunch is that, by and large, the Saints in the UK do very well in this regard. When the Pioneer Sesquicentennial was held back in 1996-97, the commemorative wagon/handcart trek from Council Bluffs Iowa to Salt Lake City included the memorable participation of a family of British Church members who brought a handcart across the Atlantic from their home.

Well, I must say, I'm underwhelmed.

Then we've been talking at crossed purposes. If your hope was that the pioneers might be mentioned a few times a year in Sunday talks or lessons then don't worry. We get that most years. I've never said we completely ignore them. I'm not sure what your point is any more.

[Bikeemikey]

Yes.

A study of the Mormon pioneers is every bit as important to our identity and self-concept as the covenant people of God as is a study of ancient Israel in the Old Testament.

I honestly have no idea how studying ancient Israel and their genocidal romp across the region has any import to my relationship with God.

Mormon pioneers are obviously relevant from a religious perspective. That does not make them relevant to non-US Mormons from a patriotic standpoint.

That is to say it is entirely possible to believe LDS pioneers are hugely important and still that the US constitution and US govt totally insignificant. In fact, when one studies the way the us govt treated the early LDS members and church it would seem obvious that Mormonism survived in the face of the US govt terrible actions, not because of US govt help.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Scott Lloyd]

Then we've been talking at crossed purposes. If your hope was that the pioneers might be mentioned a few times a year in Sunday talks or lessons then don't worry. We get that most years. I've never said we completely ignore them. I'm not sure what your point is any more.

My hope and point, for reasons I've already expressed, is that the Latter-day Saints generally not have the same sort of dismissive and provincial attitude toward the Mormon Pioneer saga that you and Alan have displayed here.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I honestly have no idea how studying ancient Israel and their genocidal romp across the region has any import to my relationship with God.

Mormon pioneers are obviously relevant from a religious perspective. That does not make them relevant to non-US Mormons from a patriotic standpoint.

That is to say it is entirely possible to believe LDS pioneers are hugely important and still that the US constitution and US govt totally insignificant. In fact, when one studies the way the us govt treated the early LDS members and church it would seem obvious that Mormonism survived in the face of the US govt terrible actions, not because of US govt help.

It would have been far worse had the setting been elsewhere. Despite the oppression carried on by mobs with the acquiescence and eventual participation of government, America was still the cradle of the Restoration, this because of the U.S. Constitution, the only modern-day government document I know of that has direct scriptural endorsement.

[Sleeper Cell]

I never said an observance elsewhere had to be "HUGE."

 

What I'm expressing disappointment over is the notion that it should have no meaning or significance whatsoever to Church members who don't live in Utah. That's just plain silly.

It is also just plain sad.  

[cdowis]

I honestly have no idea how studying ancient Israel and their genocidal romp across the region has any import to my relationship with God.

 

May i suggest that reading and understanding the scriptures indeed has an import with your relationship with the Lord.

 

For example, it appears that your copy of the BOM sits quietly, untouched, on your bookshelf as you display ignorance  of the text where it explains very specifically the Lord's dealing with the Israelites during this "genocidal romp" as you call it.  

 

Mormon pioneers are obviously relevant from a religious perspective. That does not make them relevant to non-US Mormons from a patriotic standpoint.

 

I think you are missing the point == the history of the pioneers has to do with the history of the  restoration and the building of the Kingdom of God on this earth.   

That is to say it is entirely possible to believe LDS pioneers are hugely important and still that the US constitution and US govt totally insignificant. In fact, when one studies the way the us govt treated the early LDS members and church it would seem obvious that Mormonism survived in the face of the US govt terrible actions, not because of US govt help.

 

 It was the legal environment, the laws and Constitution that made the restoration possible, the recognition of freedom of religion found nowhere else.  You are confusing our recognition of the role of the United States in the Restoration with nationalism.

Edited May 1, 2014 by cdowis

[Calm]

"  You are confusing our recognition of the role of the United States in the Restoration with nationalism."

So do a lot of American LDS in my opinion. If they did it less, I think nonUS members would be much less sensitive about it.

For example, when Canada Day fell on a Sunday, the chorister in our Calgary ward who had American ties (cant remember if he was born there or his parents) for some bizarre reason chose 2 songs that celebrated the US and only one song that celebrated Canada, there was no reason given that the Fourth was on Wednesday that he couldn't have shifted the American salute to the next week. Every year the day had to be shared, but it was particularly blatant which he felt was more important that year. It did not surprise me when a couple of members would get up and walk out...I, an American, felt like doing it for the disrespect that was being paid my host country.

[cdowis]

Yes, I agree.  Missionaries an be somewhat parochial while serving in foreign counties and to be somewhat sensitive to criticism of American policy.  When I was on my mission in Germany the Vietnam war was underway, I had to make an effort to keep my mouth shut when the topic came up.

 

Of course today more than 50% of the church membership is outside the United States, and Spanish is closing on English as the primary language.  Quite a change from when there were no temples in the US east of the Mississippi.

Edited May 1, 2014 by cdowis

[Scott Lloyd]

"  You are confusing our recognition of the role of the United States in the Restoration with nationalism."

So do a lot of American LDS in my opinion. If they did it less, I think nonUS members would be much less sensitive about it.

For example, when Canada Day fell on a Sunday, the chorister in our Calgary ward who had American ties (cant remember if he was born there or his parents) for some bizarre reason chose 2 songs that celebrated the US and only one song that celebrated Canada, there was no reason given that the Fourth was on Wednesday that he couldn't have shifted the American salute to the next week. Every year the day had to be shared, but it was particularly blatant which he felt was more important that year. It did not surprise me when a couple of members would get up and walk out...I, an American, felt like doing it for the disrespect that was being paid my host country.

On a positive note, when the Mormon History Association Conference was held in Calgary a couple of years ago, the Sunday devotional occurred on Canada Day. At the devotional we sang the Canadian national anthem.

 

Granted, this was officially a non-denominational meeting, but Elder Marlin K. Jensen, who was just ending his service as Church Historian and Recorder, was the keynote speaker, and the meeting had very much a Latter-day Saint flavor.

 

Also, on the occasion of that visit, my family and I spent a night and part of a day in Cardston, where I worked on a Church News feature about the founding of the town. I was interested to note that when pioneers from Salt Lake City entered Canada via covered wagons, one of their first actions was to raise the Canadian flag in salute to their adopted homeland.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

On a positive note, when the Mormon History Association Conference was held in Calgary a couple of years ago, the Sunday devotional occurred on Canada Day. At the devotional we sang the Canadian national anthem.

Granted, this was officially a non-denominational meeting, but Elder Marlin K. Jensen, who was just ending his service as Church Historian and Recorder, was the keynote speaker, and the meeting had very much a Latter-day Saint flavor.

Also, on the occasion of that visit, my family and I spent a night and part of a day in Cardston, where I worked on a Church News feature about the founding of the town. I was interested to note that when pioneers from Salt Lake City entered Canada via covered wagons, one of their first actions was to raise the Canadian flag in salute to their adopted homeland.

Growing up in New Zealand we didn't sign any national anthems at church, US or otherwise.

[Alan]

 I was interested to note that when pioneers from Salt Lake City entered Canada via covered wagons, one of their first actions was to raise the Canadian flag in salute to their adopted homeland.

 

And of course, the Canadian flag at that time featured the Union Jack.

No wonder they saluted it!!!

[Bikeemikey]

I honestly have no idea how studying ancient Israel and their genocidal romp across the region has any import to my relationship with God.

May i suggest that reading and understanding the scriptures indeed has an import with your relationship with the Lord.

For example, it appears that your copy of the BOM sits quietly, untouched, on your bookshelf as you display ignorance of the text where it explains very specifically the Lord's dealing with the Israelites during this "genocidal romp" as you call it.

Mormon pioneers are obviously relevant from a religious perspective. That does not make them relevant to non-US Mormons from a patriotic standpoint.

I think you are missing the point == the history of the pioneers has to do with the history of the restoration and the building of the Kingdom of God on this earth.

That is to say it is entirely possible to believe LDS pioneers are hugely important and still that the US constitution and US govt totally insignificant. In fact, when one studies the way the us govt treated the early LDS members and church it would seem obvious that Mormonism survived in the face of the US govt terrible actions, not because of US govt help.

It was the legal environment, the laws and Constitution that made the restoration possible, the recognition of freedom of religion found nowhere else. You are confusing our recognition of the role of the United States in the Restoration with nationalism.

So it looks like you decide to lead your response with a criticism of my religious life, specifically my reading of the BOM.

You are correct that my BOM sits untouched on a shelf... Though that is because I read it on my iPad, not because I don't read.

As for my ancient Israel... This year we are studying the OT in Sunday school and intend to take that as the primary document about exodus, not the BOM.

Of course the pioneers have everything to do with building the kingdom of god. That's what I said. Such a reading is distinct from the politics of the time.

As for the whole USA role in the restoration... The converts to the gospel came from England (in very large numbers). The church ended up becoming viable once the leaders decided to leave the USA (remember the pioneer trek was about escaping the USA and the lack to protection the govt had provided them) to found their own refuge.

If members had stayed where they were converted the church headquarters would be in England today, not Utah. Did you think that god chose the USA because it was the only country in the world that large numbers of immigrants could move to from almost any country in the world with out issue? Instead of the often misplaced USA mythology that it was the only place in the world where freedom and liberty existed.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[rodheadlee]

So it looks like you decide to lead your response with a criticism of my religious life, specifically my reading of the BOM.

You are correct that my BOM sits untouched on a shelf... Though that is because I read it on my iPad, not because I don't read.

As for my ancient Israel... This year we are studying the OT in Sunday school and intend to take that as the primary document about exodus, not the BOM.

Of course the pioneers have everything to do with building the kingdom of god. That's what I said. Such a reading is distinct from the politics of the time.

As for the whole USA role in the restoration... The converts to the gospel came from England (in very large numbers). The church ended up becoming viable once the leaders decided to leave the USA (remember the pioneer trek was about escaping the USA and the lack to protection the govt had provided them) to found their own refuge.

If members had stayed where they were converted the church headquarters would be in England today, not Utah. Did you think that god chose the USA because it was the only country in the world that large numbers of immigrants could move to from almost any country in the world with out issue? Instead of the often misplaced USA mythology that it was the only place in the world where freedom and liberty existed.

Aren't you here feeding at the trough of America? Dust off your OT and read the birth right blessings to Joseph regarding Ephriam and Manessa.

[Bikeemikey]

Aren't you here feeding at the trough of America? Dust off your OT and read the birth right blessings to Joseph regarding Ephriam and Manessa.

Not sure what you are talking about with troughs... Perhaps if the question was a little less figurative I might be able to reply in a way that makes sense.

Like I said - no need to brush off anything - OT is Sunday school this year so we have recently been covering all of it... I also frequently teach adult Sunday school and taught that lesson. What does said birthright have to do with what posted?

[wenglund]

If you had $1.5mn to give to a good cause would you:

 

a) Buy 230,000 school kits to contribute towards over 9,000,000 children in Africa being brought out of the enslavement of illiteracy?

b) Fund water purification kits for 600,000 Philippines typhoon survivors to avoid further deaths from cholera?

c) Make a PR inducing contribution to the Philadelphia Museum of the American Revolution?

 

In case you need a clue, Matthew 25:31-46 might be a good place to start.

 

Is this a good use of funds? Is this the best way to fulfill the mandate "inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren...?"

 

The question "...when saw we thee a museum raising millions to promote American history and culture?" doesn't seem to appear in the reference.

 

This isn't simply me trying to take a swipe at the church. I also don't want to directly discuss the merits of the first two. There are starving, thirsty, illiterate children and families all over the world. 

 

It's a genuine question and I concern I've been wrestling with. Are these the sorts of projects the church should be supporting? You can only spend a dollar once. Given it can only spent once, is a war museum the most beneficial charitable use for the funds?

 

I don't know whether it has been taken from tithing or other activities. Does it matter? If it is money available to donate to a charity, is this a good choice?

 

If I had $1.5 million to give to charity, I think i might seriously consider funding a treatment program for busy-bodies who worry too much about how other people spend their money.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-