$1.5Mn Charity Donation To... A War Museum In America?

[canard78]

Let's make it even simpler!

No Representative Government, No Taxation without representation.

No Magna Carta, no foundation of representative government.

No Feudalism, no Magna Carta.

No Feudal Lords, no Feudalism.

No Agriculture, no Feudalism.

No Crop Rotation, poor Agriculture.

No irrigation, no Agriculture.

If anything, the Church should have donated $1.5M to a museum exhibit on the discovery of irrigation and water works. As you can see, irrigation was absolutely essential to the restoration. Simply wouldn't have happened without it.

Great to see you here Seth. You're examples are fantastic.

[The Nehor]

If anything, the Church should have donated $1.5M to a museum exhibit on the discovery of irrigation and water works.  As you can see, irrigation was absolutely essential to the restoration.  Simply wouldn't have happened without it.  

 

Is there a good one to donate to?

[Alan]

The only reason I knew about 24 July is because I was in SLC in 2006 and watched the fireworks at Liberty Park. Earlier we went to the Bingham Copper Mine. I thought it would be closed but it was open and the staff were working that day - so i guess it isn't a holiday for everyone.

 

Is there any reason inparticular that we in England should celebrate the 24 July? I mean, as opposed to, say, the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and the subsequent restoration of various essential priesthood keys; or perhaps the 1837 arrival of the first missionaries?

 

If you live in Utah then Pioneer Day is significant to you for many reasons; not all religious. Non-Mormons in Utah celebrate pioneer day too. But if you don't, and especially if you live somewhere other than the US, it's significance is quite limited. It's just the way it is.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Alan

[bluebell]

Does anyone actually know why the church donated to the museum, or is all this angst just based on completely unsupported assumption and opinion?

[sethpayne]

Is there a good one to donate to?

 

I don't know.  But with $1.5M I'd be happy to start one!

[The Nehor]

I don't know.  But with $1.5M I'd be happy to start one!

 

Buying signs to put on your sprinklers and your water main and pocketing the rest does not qualify as a museum.

[bluebell]

The only reason I knew about 24 July is because I was in SLC in 2006 and watched the fireworks at Liberty Park. Earlier we went to the Bingham Copper Mine. I thought it would be closed but it was open and the staff were working that day - so i guess it isn't a holiday for everyone.

 

Is there any reason inparticular that we in England should celebrate the 24 July? I mean, as opposed to, say, the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and the subsequent restoration of various essential priesthood keys; or perhaps the 1837 arrival of the first missionaries?

 

If you live in Utah then Pioneer Day is significant to you for many reasons; not all religious. Non-Mormons in Utah celebrate pioneer day too. But if you don't, and especially if you live somewhere other than the US, it's significance is quite limited. It's just the way it is.

 

I grew up in northern Wyoming and we seldom celebrated the 24th of July.  We did however always acknowledge it with one Sunday that month dedicated to something having to do with the pioneers.

 

Since we as members had benefited from the sacrifices of those people and the settling of the Utah valley, it made sense to respect and honor them in some way.  

 

I can understand though how people so far removed from the area and the event might forget (or not even recognize) any debt they had to those who accomplished it (and i hope that didn't come out in a snarky way-it wasn't meant to be judgmental). 

Edited April 28, 2014 by bluebell

[sethpayne]

Buying signs to put on your sprinklers and your water main and pocketing the rest does not qualify as a museum.

 

Hey!  Don't balk at what this guy could do with 1.5M big ones!

 

But alas, it looks like the British have something that may come close.

 

http://www.reading.ac.uk/merl/the_collections/the_library.html

 

[/sarcasm]

[Scott Lloyd]

But that's the point. In my root and branch it is a minimal aspect. The same is true for many LDS saints, especially those outside USA. We don't think or talk about it, it's not important. I recognise that my unconventional perspectives mean I'm not representative of UK/European saints. Having said that, when I was more "conventional" it still wasn't important.

Like I said, this is disappointing, but since there appears to be scarcely anything I can do about it, I'm not going to waste a great deal of cerebral energy worrying about it. As my mom used to say, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

[Scott Lloyd]

Surely Alan, a UK Mormon is a better source than the BBC?

Based on his and your say-so alone, I'm not willing to concede that.

 

For one thing, you seem to be quite boastful of your ignorance on certain things. I'm loathe to apply that characteristic to all or even most Britons, especially British Latter-day Saints.

 

What's a Mormon folk song?? I don't know that I've ever sung one. There might be "Come, come Ye saints" and possibly a pioneer themed talk in some units around the time.

 

There are a number of selections in the English-language hymnal of the Church that stem from and pertain to the early period of the Restoration and Church history that  some might regard as folk songs, "Come, Come, Ye Saints" among the rest.

 

If you're really interested, I'll ask around at church to see how many people know what 24th July is. If you'd asked me this morning what 24th July means I'd have no idea. Of the few who do know I could ask how they mark it. I would imagine the answer will be "I don't" for the majority.

 

Don't bother. I recognize that there is some margin of distance between what people should and what they do regard as significant or memorable. I don't need anecdotal information to bear that out.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I grew up in northern Wyoming and we seldom celebrated the 24th of July.  We did however always acknowledge it with one Sunday that month dedicated to something having to do with the pioneers.

 

Since we as members had benefited from the sacrifices of those people and the settling of the Utah valley, it made sense to respect and honor them in some way.  

 

I can understand though how people so far removed from the area and the event might forget (or not even recognize) any debt they had to those who accomplished it (and i hope that didn't come out in a snarky way-it wasn't meant to be judgmental). 

It struck me as more descriptive than snarky.

[sethpayne]

Like I said, this is disappointing, but since there appears to be scarcely anything I can do about it, I'm not going to waste a great deal of cerebral energy worrying about it. As my mom used to say, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

 

Having lived in Zion as well as out in the "Mission Field" (CT, NY, WA, CO, LA, etc...)  I've noticed that not all wards really pay much attention to July 24th.  I'm sure there were wards that had a picnic or something but I just don't recall.

 

Conversely, July 24th is HUGE in Utah.  Softball tournaments, cookouts, etc...  Our stake even rented those inflatable rides for kids one year.  

 

I can see why non-Utah Mormons may not give the 24th much thought.  After all, we have been told to gather and create Zion where we are and that there is no need to be in Utah.  

[Scott Lloyd]

Is there any reason inparticular that we in England should celebrate the 24 July? I mean, as opposed to, say, the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and the subsequent restoration of various essential priesthood keys; or perhaps the 1837 arrival of the first missionaries?

 

I would suggest that the things you mention above are all incorporated in the legacy that Latter-day Saints honor with their observance of Pioneer Day.

 

 But if you still refuse to see it, I'm not inclined to invest more time in getting you to do so. As i said, "A man convinced against his will...."

 

 

If you live in Utah then Pioneer Day is significant to you for many reasons; not all religious. Non-Mormons in Utah celebrate pioneer day too. But if you don't, and especially if you live somewhere other than the US, it's significance is quite limited. It's just the way it is.

 

My feelings for the observance have far more to do with the Restoration of the gospel and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth -- things that are apt to be important to Latter-day Saints wherever they live -- than to anything connected with Utah history.

[Scott Lloyd]

Does anyone actually know why the church donated to the museum, or is all this angst just based on completely unsupported assumption and opinion?

That's a very good question, and that's what's getting lost in this avalanche of assumptions that comprises this thread.

[Scott Lloyd]

Having lived in Zion as well as out in the "Mission Field" (CT, NY, WA, CO, LA, etc...)  I've noticed that not all wards really pay much attention to July 24th.  I'm sure there were wards that had a picnic or something but I just don't recall.

 

Conversely, July 24th is HUGE in Utah.  Softball tournaments, cookouts, etc...  Our stake even rented those inflatable rides for kids one year.  

 

I can see why non-Utah Mormons may not give the 24th much thought.  After all, we have been told to gather and create Zion where we are and that there is no need to be in Utah.  

I never said an observance elsewhere had to be "HUGE."

 

What I'm expressing disappointment over is the notion that it should have no meaning or significance whatsoever to Church members who don't live in Utah. That's just plain silly.

[bluebell]

Having lived in Zion as well as out in the "Mission Field" (CT, NY, WA, CO, LA, etc...)  I've noticed that not all wards really pay much attention to July 24th.  I'm sure there were wards that had a picnic or something but I just don't recall.

 

Conversely, July 24th is HUGE in Utah.  Softball tournaments, cookouts, etc...  Our stake even rented those inflatable rides for kids one year.  

 

I can see why non-Utah Mormons may not give the 24th much thought.  After all, we have been told to gather and create Zion where we are and that there is no need to be in Utah.  

 

I can as well.

 

My kids, for example, give no thought to the 7th of December.  I often barely remember it myself.  

 

This is because it has no relevance in my life today.

 

It still makes me feel bad if i forget however, and i really want my kids to care about it as well.  It just feels wrong to me not to.  Maybe i shouldn't worry about it though (honest pondering).

[Kenngo1969]

Let's make it even simpler!

 

No Representative Government, No Taxation without representation.

 

No Magna Carta, no foundation of representative government.

 

No Feudalism, no Magna Carta.

 

No Feudal Lords, no Feudalism.

 

No Agriculture, no Feudalism.

 

No Crop Rotation, poor Agriculture.

 

No irrigation, no Agriculture.

 

 

If anything, the Church should have donated $1.5M to a museum exhibit on the discovery of irrigation and water works.  As you can see, irrigation was absolutely essential to the restoration.  Simply wouldn't have happened without it.  

I think you're deliberately being obtuse, and your examples are disingenuous.  Thanks fer playin'!

[sethpayne]

 

I can as well.

 

My kids, for example, give no thought to the 7th of December.  I often barely remember it myself.  

 

This is because it has no relevance in my life today.

 

It still makes me feel bad if i forget however, and i really want my kids to care about it as well.  It just feels wrong to me not to.  Maybe i shouldn't worry about it though (honest pondering).

 

When I was a primary kid we talked about the pioneers often.  Do they still do that today?  I haven't been in a primary class in a long long time.

 

I wonder if talk of the Utah pioneers has lessened?  If so, then non-interest or should I say, non-appreciation for July 24th could be a function of how much one knows about the sacrifices it took to get to Utah.  

Edited April 29, 2014 by sethpayne

[sethpayne]

I think you're deliberately being obtuse, and your examples are disingenuous.  Thanks fer playin'!

 

Of course!  Just keeping you honest.

[rodheadlee]

If I cast a pebble in the pond does it's ripple not reach the far shore?

[bluebell]

When I was a primary kid we talked about the pioneers often.  Do they still do that today?  I haven't been in a primary class in a long long time.

 

I wonder if talk of the Utah pioneers has lessened?  If so, then non-interest or should I say, non-appreciation for July 24th could be a function of how much one knows about the sacrifices it took to get to Utah.  

 

Absolutely.

 

What we don't understand we don't appreciate, at least certainly not to the same extent that we are capable of once we have an understanding of it. That's just a fact of the way our brains function.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't care about it of course.  That's a different argument though.

 

But then again, i have a degree in history and absolutely love it so i'm very much biased on the topic.  

[Calm]

Let's make it even simpler!

No Representative Government, No Taxation without representation.

No Magna Carta, no foundation of representative government.

No Feudalism, no Magna Carta.

No Feudal Lords, no Feudalism.

No Agriculture, no Feudalism.

No Crop Rotation, poor Agriculture.

No irrigation, no Agriculture.

If anything, the Church should have donated $1.5M to a museum exhibit on the discovery of irrigation and water works. As you can see, irrigation was absolutely essential to the restoration. Simply wouldn't have happened without it.

I am being reminded of that PBS show "Connections".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)

Edited April 29, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

When I was a primary kid we talked about the pioneers often. Do they still do that today? I haven't been in a primary class in a long long time.

I wonder if talk of the Utah pioneers has lessened? If so, then non-interest or should I say, non-appreciation for July 24th could be a function of how much one knows about the sacrifices it took to get to Utah.

There was much more talking about pioneers in my Primary classes as a child (we used to sing "pioneer children sand as they walked and walked" all the time among other songs) while I remember little of it in my 20 years as a Primary teacher though I assume the older classes who got the Church History year got more of it, I think I went through one rotation of teaching church history in the four year program, of course there was some discussion then. Would have to check the manual to see how much though as that is the time period my memory starts getting weird due to being interfered with by drugs. But I did notice over the years a huge shift in favourite Primary songs...once a few of the Pioneer songs were taken out of the Songbook, none replaced them in popularity that I can remember and songs are a significant part IMO of what we hold on to from our childhood.

Addon: I checked the two most popular songs of my youth (pioneer children and the handcart song) are still in the Songbook, they disappeared because of popularity loss, not no longer popular because they disappeared....can't say I can think of any replacements...

PS: grew up outside of Utah, taught Primary for about 5 years in Utah.

Edited April 29, 2014 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Based on his and your say-so alone, I'm not willing to concede that.

For one thing, you seem to be quite boastful of your ignorance on certain things. I'm loathe to apply that characteristic to all or even most Britons, especially British Latter-day Saints.

There are a number of selections in the English-language hymnal of the Church that stem from and pertain to the early period of the Restoration and Church history that some might regard as folk songs, "Come, Come, Ye Saints" among the rest.

Don't bother. I recognize that there is some margin of distance between what people should and what they do regard as significant or memorable. I don't need anecdotal information to bear that out.

Now you're going to tell me what I "should" find important?

If it were so important I'm sure the area presidency would send a message encouraging Europe to get involved. As it is, they don't mention it either.

As Alan pointed out, 24th has no more significance to a none Utahn (especially a non American) than any other date in the process of the growth of the church. We tend to do some sort of father/son activity around the time of the priesthood restoration. That's possibly one of the only historical dates that has a "marker" that I can think of (I guess the April conference counts). That even seems to have fallen by the wayside the last few years.

How about an event to remember the first missionary arriving in UK? Do you mark that day? And if you do I'd imagine you're a minority. Given the large number of British saints who became pioneers isn't that an important day in the history. Would you find it odd if I were saddened by you not making a big deal and having a celebration every year on that day?

I'm not saying that the pioneers are of no importance to me at all. I recognise their place in the progress of the church but I don't find them of more significance than lots of other events in the process.

[canard78]

I think you're deliberately being obtuse, and your examples are disingenuous. Thanks fer playin'!

You also ignored the list I shared that was straight from the text of 1 Nep 13. There's a long list of world history in that chapter. Your suggestion that only the apostasy and the revolution have special historical status in the BoM was shown to be incorrect in just one chapter. Were my example also disingenuous, given they came from the source you suggested I should go back to?

Edited April 29, 2014 by canard78