$1.5Mn Charity Donation To... A War Museum In America?

[canard78]

I just now saw this thread, so I don't know whether anyone has brought this up, but I'm reasonably sure the complaint in the OP has might have nothing to do with a nationalistic antipathy for the American Revolution.

 

LOL You've nailed it. This is just British sour grapes.

[canard78]

https://familysearch.org/blog/en/questions-answers-familysearch-partners/

Further, donations from Church members fund FamilySearch. These contributions and the efforts of thousands of missionaries who work without pay are the means by which FamilySearch has been able to gather records for more than 100 years and make these records available to the public at no cost through FamilySearch.org, at the free Family History Library in Salt Lake City, and at the more than 4,700 family history centers around the world. This is an enormously expensive undertaking that is unparalleled in history. Clearly, these people deserve our thanks for enabling this work to go forward and for making it possible for tens of millions of people to discover their ancestors.

(Emphasis mine)

 

When it says "donations from church members fund FamilySearch" is that tithing? I've always assumed FS is funded by tithing as I'm not aware of any other source of revenue.

 

If this donation was made by FamilySearch then isn't it essentially tithing dollars anyway? Given it's already an "enormously expensive undertaking" already is giving $1.5mn to a museum really a judicious use of funds? Like you said, this may well be seen as a good investment if they are going to get a return on their investment in the number of people who will engage in family history at the museum. I wonder what numbers would need to so in order for it to be considered a good investment.

 

Despite Storm Rider's concerns, I comfortably understand the notion of investment in projects and marketing objectives. At work, I regularly evaluate the ROI of marketing campaigns. The return on this $1.5mn could be measured by increased awareness for the church, a better public image for the church, increased awareness for doing family history etc etc.

 

If this is marketing investment, let's call it marketing investment (rather than those on the thread trying to make out this is somehow "a good cause" because of the war's minor place in the history of the world). I might still not agree with the approach. But it moves it to a different area of discussion. The church already spends millions on media productions and marketing the church. Communication to the masses can take many approaches. I'm struggling to see how the church will get value for money from this if it is an investment.

[Avatar4321]

Was the thread I started in the news area about the donation to a museum several days ago insufficient?

 

I don't see what is wrong with preserving our history and culture for people. I think that knowing our history is as important as food and shelter.

 

What I find more interesting about it is the community building the Church has been doing in Philadelphia. I have not seen such activities done outside Utah. Shouldn't we be encouraging the Church and other organizations to build our communities?

[canard78]

Was the thread I started in the news area about the donation to a museum several days ago insufficient?

 

I don't see what is wrong with preserving our history and culture for people. I think that knowing our history is as important as food and shelter.

 

What I find more interesting about it is the community building the Church has been doing in Philadelphia. I have not seen such activities done outside Utah. Shouldn't we be encouraging the Church and other organizations to build our communities?

 

"...knowing our history is as important as food and shelter." Without one you'll die, without one you'll struggle to survive. Without the first...? Besides, billions will never see this museum. Does that mean they will be ignorant? I agree that knowing history is important but is it more important than food and water?

 

I can think of communities that would benefit far more from being rebuilt.

 

[Gohan]

Yup, or started it, not sure. ETA: I may be wrong, I think they just joined forces with them. I should do my research better.

  

Yes, yes you should. But if people did, then the Internet would be nowhere near as entertaining.

So what does it mean when they join forces? This doesn't include all the indexing info? My "conspiracy theorist" personality thinks that they made the push for indexers when the two hooked up, but I may be wrong.

  

I don't know if you've been involved with any of the work the Church has been doing recently, but I suspect you're quite wrong there. There is an obscene amount of indexing to be done, and it will take decades to complete indexing the records that we possess right now. And that's not counting things like the Italian Indexing Project based on the three million plus names that started last fall. You're seeing a push for indexing because members of the church are still largely apathetic to it, dozens of lessons and talks aside, and it's a work (a spiritually fulfilling one at that) that needs to be done. \

...Having said that, I personally have concerns about the church disproportionately spending millions subsidising the University education of American Mormons while largely ignoring members in the rest of the world. Why are members in other countries not provided the same subsidy? Why are third-world Mormons asked to get into debt with the church to get a basic education? If the church has millions to invest in education wouldn't it be better to allow members in the developed world to pay for themselves while making a significant difference to illiterate and impoverished people in the emerging and developing countries?

 

All of this combines to emphasise that the church that is supposed to be the kingdom of God on earth is still very American-centric.

I don't suppose you've heard of a little thing called the Perpetual Education Fund? Announced by President Hinckley a while back? You can educate yourself on it here: http://pef.lds.org/

Also, while I'm at it, I should mention that in my ward alone here at BYU-Idaho, we have had students from Nigeria, Angola, Ghana, Tonga, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, and Jordan. Just to name a few. And the Church helped them get here. We're not nearly as American-centric as you seem to want to imply.

As it is, based on the tenor of your posts and the replies I've seen, it feels like nothing short of throwing everything the Church has at the third-world would satisfy you (I recognize this is an exaggeration). I'm all for aid efforts and helping to build, but we can't do everything. And fortunately, we don't have to, since we're certainly not the only one's out there trying to help.

[canard78]

I don't suppose you've heard of a little thing called the Perpetual Education Fund? Announced by President Hinckley a while back? You can educate yourself on it here: http://pef.lds.org/

That's exactly the discrepancy that I was talking about.

- On the one hand BYU is funded by tithing and a free subsidy not expected to be paid back.

- On the other we have an initiative that is separately funded by additional donations by members. The saint in the developing market makes an application to borrow money from the church and are then expected to pay the loan back (with interest).

So on the one hand we subsidise (predominantly) Americans' education for free while asking saints in the developing market to get into debt with it.

Why can't the church put some of the BYU funds (from tithing) towards people who need it far more.

Here's the summary from PEF:

The program is funded through contributions of Church members and others who support its mission. It is a revolving resource in which money is loaned to an individual to help pay for training or advanced education. When a student has graduated and is working, he or she then pays back the loan to the fund at a low interest rate.

In the absence of any other option I'm glad there is at least this for people who would otherwise have nothing.

Also, while I'm at it, I should mention that in my ward alone here at BYU-Idaho, we have had students from Nigeria, Angola, Ghana, Tonga, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, and Jordan. Just to name a few. And the Church helped them get here. We're not nearly as American-centric as you seem to want to imply.

How many? Given more than 50% of the membership are non-American is the handful of internationals anything more than a token gesture?

About 5,000/ year (in the last 12 years) have accessed the PEF. Given there are over 7.5mn members outside USA, many in developing markets, this is a drop in the ocean. How many per year go through BYU? A few more, at greater cost and with no repayment.

But we're not American-centric are we?

As it is, based on the tenor of your posts and the replies I've seen, it feels like nothing short of throwing everything the Church has at the third-world would satisfy you (I recognize this is an exaggeration). I'm all for aid efforts and helping to build, but we can't do everything. And fortunately, we don't have to, since we're certainly not the only one's out there trying to help.

We can't do everything. We can only spend what we have once. Even if we gave ever resource to the third world (which I haven't asked for) then there would still be problems. But that doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't do more than we currently do. Edited April 27, 2014 by canard78

[CV75]

Why does the american revolution need special treatment?

As I pointed out, it doesn't--but that doesn't make the choice a bad one, and doesn't prevent it from being an inspired choice.

[The Nehor]

First, we haven't established whether the contribution is "God's money" or not. If it is tithing funds we've also seen no evidence that He was asked about the actual donation that has been made.

Tithing funds are not the only asset in the Church that belongs to The Lord. Also, if you do not believe that the Brethren as a matter of course seek the counsel of The Lord as to how to spend his money then I am not sure what to say. You need them to explicitly explain that to you regarding every expenditure? Or does that only apply to ones you happen to disagree with? So if God does something you, with the reasoning of your vastly inferior intellect, agree with then obviously it is right because God saw the sense in it that you did. That is amazingly arrogant.

[omni]

How about the British war museum? Or an Aztec was museum? Or...

 

I suppose, an American church will be drawn to fund American history. Seems a shame when we claim to be a global church representing the God of the entire universe.

 

You should see the donation the Church made to the museum remembering the Battle of Xeronix on the planet Exeniosis.  It would really make your blood boil.  

[thesometimesaint]

CV75 made a similar point. It's one small part. How about no apostasy no restoration? How about no printing press no restoration? No reformers no restoration... Why does the american revolution need special treatment?

 

We believe the US Constitution to be divinely inspired.

[canard78]

We believe the US Constitution to be divinely inspired.

We also believe Nephi's boat building to be divinely inspired... Shall we donate $1.5mn to the middle-east maritime museum? That's a nonsensical line of argument.

[canard78]

Tithing funds are not the only asset in the Church that belongs to The Lord. Also, if you do not believe that the Brethren as a matter of course seek the counsel of The Lord as to how to spend his money then I am not sure what to say. You need them to explicitly explain that to you regarding every expenditure? Or does that only apply to ones you happen to disagree with? So if God does something you, with the reasoning of your vastly inferior intellect, agree with then obviously it is right because God saw the sense in it that you did. That is amazingly arrogant.

As long as you chose to make things personal, I will chose to not engage in dialogue with you. Let me know when you're ready to discuss the issue rather than discuss me.

[Alan]

I am joining this discussion very late but would like to add my tuppence worth.

In my view the church has no business at all donating funds to this museum. As a British tithe payer and contributor to what I understand is a worldwide church I feel it is an entirely inappropriate use of sacred funds.

It is high time the church came clean with it's finances. I believe the church has an embarrassment of riches and has had for some time, and that is the reason they keep us in the dark.

The museum of the American Revolution has absolutely no relavance to the majority of church members, given that the majority of saints are not Americans; and are, quite frankly, rather pleased about that.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Alan

[Alan]

We also believe Nephi's boat building to be divinely inspired... Shall we donate $1.5mn to the middle-east maritime museum? That's a nonsensical line of argument.

 

Good point canard78.

The problem is that a lot of our American cousins think the church belongs to them.

Just look at all the chapels and temples in the US that fly the American flag. What on earth are they thinking?

Seperation of church and state? What nonsense!

Edited April 27, 2014 by Alan

[canard78]

Good point canard78.

The problem is that a lot of our American cousins think the church belongs to them.

Just look at all the chapels and temples in the US that fly the American flag. What on earth are they thinking!!!

Unfortunately this is true and will be as long as the majority of leaders, church employees and decision makers are American.

God is not American.

[Alan]

God is not American.

 

Yeah, I heard he's a Yorkshireman.

[The Nehor]

As long as you chose to make things personal, I will chose to not engage in dialogue with you. Let me know when you're ready to discuss the issue rather than discuss me.

 

Oh, you were trying to dialogue? And here I was thinking you were just murmuring against the prophets.

 

Silly me.

[canard78]

Oh, you were trying to dialogue? And here I was thinking you were just murmuring against the prophets.

Silly me.

...

(Still waiting)

[The Nehor]

...

(Still waiting)

 

....

 

(stares at you until you feel awkward)

[Sleeper Cell]

I once had the impression that the major obstacle to us living the law of consecration was the greed of the wealthy and the reluctance of selfish, middle class Mormons to give up their comfortable lifestyle.  But based on some of the comments in this thread, the major obstacle is probably the backbiting, jealously, and self righteousness  that would result from nearly every financial decision.  Look how quickly the argument has shifted from  “was there a  better way to spend this money,” to essentially “it was an immoral way to spend sacred funds.”    And this over a donation to a history museum.

[Rain]

That's exactly the discrepancy that I was talking about.

- On the one hand BYU is funded by tithing and a free subsidy not expected to be paid back.

- On the other we have an initiative that is separately funded by additional donations by members. The saint in the developing market makes an application to borrow money from the church and are then expected to pay the loan back (with interest).

So on the one hand we subsidise (predominantly) Americans' education for free while asking saints in the developing market to get into debt with it.

 

We are sort of talking about 2 different things.  Except for those with scholarships the church subsidizes the running of the school. I would guess that most if not all of the schools where PEF students are attending are subsidized by a church, state and/or country government.  I haven't been able to verfiy that through a google search, but there are few colleges not subsidzed by someone and if they are not subsidized I would expect most PEF students wouldn't go there since tuition would be too high.  .  

 

Then there is the other part.  Students still need to pay tuition.  American students will need to tak out loans or earn the money or get grants to go to BYU and BYUI.  They will need to pay these back loans with interest.  These rates start at 3 point something and go up depending on where/how you get it.  PEF is similar to this with their loans for tuition and fees being 3 percent.  Here is one part where the church subsidzes the students - none of the PEF goes to the administration of the fund.  The church (tithing?) takes that on.  

 

Studies have been shown and students who work in some way for their education tend to do better  in school.  By having the PEF students pay back their loans it gives them additional incentive to do well.  Then it also increases their love for their fellow men because they understand that wheat they are paying back go to the next student who is going to school. That is not something I ever felt when I had a student loan.        

[Kenngo1969]

CV75 made a similar point. It's one small part. How about no apostasy no restoration? How about no printing press no restoration? No reformers no restoration... Why does the american revolution need special treatment?

Other than the apostasy, to the best of my knowledge, the Book of Mormon doesn't address any of the other things you mention: I'm not the one responsible for the "special treatment" accorded the American Revolution in the Book of Mormon.  If you want to know why that event receives such "special treatment," perhaps you could go [back] to the source. 

[canard78]

Other than the apostasy, to the best of my knowledge, the Book of Mormon doesn't address any of the other things you mention: I'm not the one responsible for the "special treatment" accorded the American Revolution in the Book of Mormon. If you want to know why that event receives such "special treatment," perhaps you could go [back] to the source.

But really, so what? It gets mentioned in the Book of Mormon. It's a moment in history. I know it matters a great deal to you Americans. You pop some fireworks about it once a year and feel proud but the mention of it in the BoM doesn't make it some sacred calf to worship.

It was a functional step in bringing the USA its independence from UK. It isn't some holy moment that needs to be worshipped.

[CV75]

But really, so what? It gets mentioned in the Book of Mormon. It's a moment in history. I know it matters a great deal to you Americans. You pop some fireworks about it once a year and feel proud but the mention of it in the BoM doesn't make it some sacred calf to worship.

It was a functional step in bringing the USA its independence from UK. It isn't some holy moment that needs to be worshipped.

As Kenngo explained, it's more than just the mere mention of it in the Book of Mormon that makes the event significant. I think he's won the argument since all you can respond with is refutation and stereotypes.

[Rain]

Apologies for all of the typos in my last post.  It will be good when I am able to edit things like that.