$1.5Mn Charity Donation To... A War Museum In America?

[changed]

Jesus did not say to give all charity to the poor... Mathew 26


Genealogy is very important to me, I think $ should be spent equally for each branch of the 4 fold mission of the church.  

Edited April 28, 2014 by changed

[The Nehor]

....

 

(stares at you until you feel awkward)

 

.....

 

(still staring unblinking and now licking my lips in a disturbing fashion)

[halconero]

Hey! Where's our 1.5 mil to help fund the United Empire Loyalist museum up across the border?!

[The Nehor]

Hey! Where's our 1.5 mil to help fund the United Empire Loyalist museum up across the border?!

 

Come over to my gun shed Tory trait....sorry brother, and I will give it to you immediately.

[Bikeemikey]

Other than the apostasy, to the best of my knowledge, the Book of Mormon doesn't address any of the other things you mention: I'm not the one responsible for the "special treatment" accorded the American Revolution in the Book of Mormon. If you want to know why that event receives such "special treatment," perhaps you could go [back] to the source.

Can you provide the CFR for the verses you think are most suggestive of the American revolution.

Thanks.

[Calm]

I can understand why mention of possible historical events in certain lands don't cause one to feel automatically patriotic towards that land, even if they are a spiritual nature. After all, here in the US we aren't prone to donating to Israel to celebrate aspects of their history mentioned in the scriptures.

[Kenngo1969]

Can you provide the CFR for the verses you think are most suggestive of the American revolution.

Thanks.

1 Nephi 13.

[Storm Rider]

I am joining this discussion very late but would like to add my tuppence worth.

In my view the church has no business at all donating funds to this museum. As a British tithe payer and contributor to what I understand is a worldwide church I feel it is an entirely inappropriate use of sacred funds.

It is high time the church came clean with it's finances. I believe the church has an embarrassment of riches and has had for some time, and that is the reason they keep us in the dark.

The museum of the American Revolution has absolutely no relavance to the majority of church members, given that the majority of saints are not Americans; and are, quite frankly, rather pleased about that.

 

Alan, can you explain how these are sacred funds?

[Gohan]

How many? Given more than 50% of the membership are non-American is the handful of internationals anything more than a token gesture?

Using the word 'token' seems to imply that you feel that our international students are a political gesture. Seems kind of insulting. I'd love for you to expound on what you meant by that, so that you can prove me wrong.

As to the Church Education System, we've got the three big schools, putting aside the Jerusalem Center. Of them, Idaho is the only one that can really expand its campus right now. They were beginning to do so, and then the mission age change happened. Enrollment dropped. Campus expansion was paused in the wake of that. I expect it to resume sometime next year when the first wave of those missionaries return. So no change there for a while. 

 

According to articles on the various BYU pages, we've got the following student body size numbers: 30,243 (Provo), 15,625 (Idaho), and approximately 2,500 (Hawaii). (For references, see: http://yfacts.byu.edu/Article?id=104, http://www2.byui.edu/IR/stats/studentsw14.htm, and http://about.byuh.edu/facts.)

 

Give or take an annual average new freshman class size of 6000, 4000, and 400 for those schools respectively. So a little over 10,000 slots per year for school.  In 2007, some official BeSmart representatives that came to my stake to talk about applying to Church schools. They told us that about 100,000 Latter-day Saint youth - which I haven't been able to substantiate as of yet, although I'm inclined to believe them - graduate high school every year worldwide. So you're looking at a ball park 1 in 10 that are able to get in.

 

So we need more schools if we want to give equal educational opportunities to all members worldwide. Where do you want us to build another one or twelve? Certainly not in the United States, given the bias that you've already shown on that front. They thrive best in communities with a stable and good-sized LDS population. Where do you want them to put them? South America would be my bet, but it's unlikely right now. It's quite an investment to start a new school, and a bigger one to keep it going. Southern Virginia University has struggled. Their student body is small, and their high tuition reflects that. Nauvoo University only lasted about a year (2009ish) before they had to fold. It's an exceptionally expensive business, and the massive cost of building up theoretical new schools - where we'll be subsidizing two-thirds of the tuition of the students - would probably necessitate cutbacks in other areas of church spending, like welfare assistance. And no one wants that. 

 

Also, Idaho and Hawaii were established church schools that have been expanded under the BYU name. You can read in Greg Prince's David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism about the struggle that Idaho had to survive under the Wilkinson regime. 

 

We can't do everything. We can only spend what we have once. Even if we gave ever resource to the third world which I haven't asked for) then there would still be problems. But that doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't do more than we currently do.

So what does the Church do right now? More than any of us know, you included. But only some of it makes the news, and everyone here should remember that before they bellyache about how they don't approve. Edited April 28, 2014 by Gohan

[Calm]

The ability to start schools is much harder now...one only has to look at the ratio of tenured and teaching positions to administrative to notice that (my husband says this is primarily due to the obsession with "reports" in order to get funding if I understood him correctly...he has a very bad cold and isnt speaking too clearly).

It might be more cost effective to go with high schools for any building now, but if public schools are free, then these students would need to be totally subsidised...looks to me like subsidising of tuition with stuff like the PEF is the best way to get help to the largest amount outside of the US and Canada...and the sky's the limit on how much that can grow, right? As members we can designate our donations to that fund and be assured it is helping in areas outside the US.

I think I wilk talk to my husband about a yearly gift going to PEF as well as to UVU (he is very school spirited, his work is his extended family and he wants to make it a great home for his students and fellow teachers).

[Calm]

My husband has just informed me about some good news on the international educational front that looks like it will be even more effective than the PEF. Stephan Gibson ( nice man, I've meant him and have seen the first project) set up a school in the Phillipines for RM who have nothing to do when they return home to their small villages (sorry for any error, thought I was done for the night and so am stoned) and he has been spreading these schools that train people to both be managers and able to move up as well as business owners themselves into Mexico and other places. Husband passed out (cold knocking him into bed) so I don't have all the details, but it appears to be attracting church interest due to its effectiveness so maybe a partnership there in the future.

Maybe once we not only have the higher numbers of students who need university level teaching as their next step AND the area can be able to fill the need for teachers and staff from among mostly LDS on a permanent basis, then if the government and economic regulations don't make it impossible to start a college or university that might make sense, but the infrastructure and personnel needs to be in place before considering it. I can see this happen as more work I this area appears.

pEF will created a higher educated population with higher income to give to ensuring their children do well, A web of Small schools providing training spread across countries may help establish a presence, the right contacts and enough local money that the Church likes involved so the project is emotionally local and not dependent on Big Brother, but ones little brothers and sisters.

Hope that made sense, will come back when the letters stop walking around.

[Calm]

https://marriottschool.byu.edu/advisoryboard/detail.cfm?mem=1174&group=3

"Business Profile:

Gibson has created or funded more than a dozen entrepreneurial businesses, including 1800Contacts, Omniture and Ancestry.com. He also co-founded the Utah Angels. He and Bette founded the Academy for Creating Enterprise (ACE) in the Philippines and Mexico. The Academy has now taught more than 7,500 returned missionaries and members in third world countries how to start and grow a business. They have 114 Academy chapters worldwide."

"He and his wife, Bette, founded the Academy for Creating Enterprise in the Philippines. The Academy is a school designed to teach microenterprise development among Filipino and Mexican returned missionaries. More than 5,000 returned missionaries have been trained in the Academy curriculum in the Philippines, Mexico, Indonesia, Bolivia, Brazil, Peru and several other countries including Zimbabwe and Benin in Africa. He taught Entrepreneurship as a full time BYU faculty in Provo and at BYU Hawaii."

Brother Gibson's favourite quote: Favorite Quote:

'Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.' by Henry David Thoreau.

Edited April 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Bernard Gui]

The perpetual part of the Perpetual Education Fund is the genius of the program.

By recipients paying the loan back into the fund, it is.........perpetuated. There is nothing

immoral or usurious about this program.

This strategy was also used by the Church to help new converts gather to Zion

In the 19th century.

President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign or Liahona, May 2001 said,

"Now, I seek the inspiration of the Lord as I speak briefly on what I consider to be a very important subject.

"I begin by taking you back 150 years and more. In 1849 our forebears faced a serious problem. Our people had then been in the Salt Lake Valley for two years. Missionaries in the British Isles and Europe continued to gather converts. They came into the Church by the hundreds. When they were baptized, they desired to gather to Zion. Their strength and their skills were needed here, and their wish to come was very strong. But many of them were distressingly poor, and they had no money with which to buy passage. How were they to get here?

"Under the inspiration of the Lord, a plan was devised. What was known as the Perpetual Emigration Fund was established. Under this plan, funded by the Church, notwithstanding its serious poverty at that time, money was loaned to those members who had little or nothing. Loans were made with the understanding that when the converts arrived here, they would find employment, and as they were able to do so, they would pay off the loan. The money repaid would then be loaned to others to make it possible for them to emigrate. It was a revolving resource. It was truly a Perpetual Emigration Fund.

"With the help of this fund, it is estimated that some 30,000 converts to the Church were enabled to gather to Zion. They became a great strength to the work here. Some of them came with needed skills, such as stone masonry, and others developed skills. They were able to perform a tremendous service in constructing buildings, including the Salt Lake Temple and Tabernacle, and doing other work which required expertise. They came here by wagons and by handcarts. Notwithstanding the terrible handcart tragedy of 1856, when approximately 200 of them died from cold and sickness on the plains of Wyoming, they traveled safely and became an important part of the family of the Church in these mountain valleys."

[Bernard Gui]

I don't begrudge the Church donating to worthy civic causes. It is part of acting in good faith with local, state, and national governments. Such donations do not diminish our ability to provide charitable service. In fact, such good will could very well open the door for further expansion of our ability to influence for good in the world.

[halconero]

Come over to my gun shed Tory trait....sorry brother, and I will give it to you immediately.

 

Interesting anecdote: Talking to my friend from Utah, who is doing their PhD up here at University of Toronto. He went with his girlfriend to Ottawa and visited the Canadian War Museum up there. They were going through the revolutionary war era and he kept noticing terms such as "loyalist" and "patriot" being applied to British and Americans who fought for the crown during the revolution, and the term "traitors" and "rebels" being applied to the revolutionaries. The very term "Tory traitor" seems like an oxymoron to me, as Tory in Canada and the UK is usually applied to a political party aligned with conservatism and loyalty to the British monarchy.

 

One man's terrorist is another's freedom-fighter I guess.

[Calm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_for_Creating_Enterprise

The Academy for Creating Enterprise is a private business college within the field of Micro-enterprise education. The objective of micro-enterprise education is to empower individuals with the skills and knowledge necessary to start their own businesses. The Academy is closely allied with the BYU Ballard Center for Economic Self-Reliance. As defined by the Micro-enterprise Education Initiative at the Ballard Center, “Microenterprises are defined as small businesses. They are prevalent throughout the developing work [sic] due to necessity enterprise. Where large companies that employ many are scarce and jobs are limited even with a degree, many have had to survive but [sic] starting their own businesses (microenterprises).”[1] The Academy for Creating Enterprise relies upon this idea and hopes that individual lives will be transformed and poverty will be eradicated through education. The Academy's philosophy can be summarized by the following quote offered by Joseph F. Smith that appears on the website: "Our idea of charity, therefore, is to relieve present wants and then to put the poor in a way to help themselves so, in turn, they may help others."[2]

Steve and Bette Gibson founded The Academy in 1999 in Cebu, Philippines with the intent of providing basic business training to young Filipinos to start their own businesses. The Academy continues to have a base in the Philippines and it now has a campus in Mexico. The Academy is looking to expand into Brazil and Africa. The Academy for Creating Enterprise is a non-profit organization with headquarters in Provo, Utah. The business college is financed by independent donors, the Called2Serve Foundation, and by student tuition. The Academy also partners with the BYU Ballard Center to recruit interns interested in social innovation and micro-enterprise. The current program directors for The Academy’s campuses located in Cebu and Mexico City are Gandhi Blas (Mexico) and James O. Fantone (Philippines) – both native to their respective countries. The Executive Director is Dr. Jeremi Brewer, who received his PhD from Texas A&M University (College Station, Texas), performing his doctoral research on “Culture, Poverty, and Necessity Entrepreneurship.”

The Academy runs a five-week program that combines hands-on experience with classroom instruction, guest lecturers and team innovation. Upon entering The Academy, students are placed into groups and begin income-generating activities. In essence, the students put into practice the concepts they learn in class through actual business activities in the marketplace. This program and materials developed by the Gibsons have been adopted by several other organizations around the world, including Ascend Alliance in their Bolivia micro-enterprise program.[3] The program of The Academy centers on 25 “Rules of Thumb” developed by Steve and Bette Gibson to provide foundational business practices for entrepreneurs.[4] During and upon completion of the program, students of The Academy are expected to not only use their newfound skills to successfully navigate business ventures, but they are also expected to teach what they have learned to others.

While the Academy does not claim to higher aspirations, Brigham Young University - Hawaii has agreed to offer graduates of the Academy a certificate of completion,[4] making the Academy one of a small group of LDS institutions of higher education. In addition to the colleges officially sponsored by the LDS Church (BYU, BYU-Idaho, BYU-Hawaii, and the LDS Business College), the only other LDS Institutions of higher learning (albeit not officially sponsored by the Church) are Southern Virginia University and the Academy for Creating Enterprise. There is however, a new initiative by the Acorn to Oak Foundation to build a privately funded LDS university in Argentina. If successful that would bring the number of LDS institutions of higher learning (both officially sponsored and independent) to seven.

[canard78]

As Kenngo explained, it's more than just the mere mention of it in the Book of Mormon that makes the event significant. I think he's won the argument since all you can respond with is refutation and stereotypes.

Obviously you would, given you have agreed with him from the start.

Kenngo referenced 1 Nep 13 as his source (and suggested I go back to the source). In that chapter the following historical events are referenced (depending on the interpretation):

- Apostacy (v5)

- Martyrdom/oppression of saints (v5-9)

- Christopher Columbus (v12)

- The conquistadors or the mayflower/other emigration (v13)

- Persecution of natives - Mesoamerican and/or North American (v14)

- Colonisation of North/South America by Europeans (v15)

- American revolution (v17-18)

- Growth of Christianity (v20-23)

- Corruption of the Bible (v28)

- Efforts to preserve the native Americans (v31)

-Reformation (v34-35)

Kenngo said: 

 

 

Other than the apostasy, to the best of my knowledge, the Book of Mormon doesn't address any of the other things you mention: I'm not the one responsible for the "special treatment" accorded the American Revolution in the Book of Mormon.  If you want to know why that event receives such "special treatment," perhaps you could go [back] to the source. 

 

He suggests there's of no other event referenced in the Book of Mormon (except the apostasy) that was part of the process of creating an environment to make the restoration possible/gets special treatment in the Book of Mormon. In just one chapter I've referenced 10 others. So I ask again, out of that long sequence of historical events, why does just one of them merit special treatment?

Maybe you should be calling for the church to donate $1.5mn to the colosseums of Rome, or even to the monuments to the 1700/1800s repression of welsh Congregationalist/nonconformist churches (which lead to increased emigration from Wales to USA).

Of all of the lines of argument in this thread I find the one that Cal and others are using (that it fulfills one of the fourfold missions of the church) far more compelling than the one you and kenngo keep gnawing away at.

 

(Edited to add Kenngo's comment as a quote for direct reference and a clarification of my post. I was on my phone earlier making multiquote difficult).

Edited April 28, 2014 by canard78

[canard78]

My husband has just informed me about some good news on the international educational front that looks like it will be even more effective than the PEF. Stephan Gibson ( nice man, I've meant him and have seen the first project) set up a school in the Phillipines for RM who have nothing to do when they return home to their small villages (sorry for any error, thought I was done for the night and so am stoned) and he has been spreading these schools that train people to both be managers and able to move up as well as business owners themselves into Mexico and other places. Husband passed out (cold knocking him into bed) so I don't have all the details, but it appears to be attracting church interest due to its effectiveness so maybe a partnership there in the future.

Maybe once we not only have the higher numbers of students who need university level teaching as their next step AND the area can be able to fill the need for teachers and staff from among mostly LDS on a permanent basis, then if the government and economic regulations don't make it impossible to start a college or university that might make sense, but the infrastructure and personnel needs to be in place before considering it. I can see this happen as more work I this area appears.

pEF will created a higher educated population with higher income to give to ensuring their children do well, A web of Small schools providing training spread across countries may help establish a presence, the right contacts and enough local money that the Church likes involved so the project is emotionally local and not dependent on Big Brother, but ones little brothers and sisters.

Hope that made sense, will come back when the letters stop walking around.

That did all make sense and that sounds like a very exciting initiative. I'll look forward to hearing more about it and will look into supporting it if more information becomes available.

[canard78]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_for_Creating_Enterprise

The Academy for Creating Enterprise is a private business college within the field of Micro-enterprise education. The objective of micro-enterprise education is to empower individuals with the skills and knowledge necessary to start their own businesses. The Academy is closely allied with the BYU Ballard Center for Economic Self-Reliance. As defined by the Micro-enterprise Education Initiative at the Ballard Center, “Microenterprises are defined as small businesses. They are prevalent throughout the developing work [sic] due to necessity enterprise. Where large companies that employ many are scarce and jobs are limited even with a degree, many have had to survive but [sic] starting their own businesses (microenterprises).”[1] The Academy for Creating Enterprise relies upon this idea and hopes that individual lives will be transformed and poverty will be eradicated through education. The Academy's philosophy can be summarized by the following quote offered by Joseph F. Smith that appears on the website: "Our idea of charity, therefore, is to relieve present wants and then to put the poor in a way to help themselves so, in turn, they may help others."[2]

Steve and Bette Gibson founded The Academy in 1999 in Cebu, Philippines with the intent of providing basic business training to young Filipinos to start their own businesses. The Academy continues to have a base in the Philippines and it now has a campus in Mexico. The Academy is looking to expand into Brazil and Africa. The Academy for Creating Enterprise is a non-profit organization with headquarters in Provo, Utah. The business college is financed by independent donors, the Called2Serve Foundation, and by student tuition. The Academy also partners with the BYU Ballard Center to recruit interns interested in social innovation and micro-enterprise. The current program directors for The Academy’s campuses located in Cebu and Mexico City are Gandhi Blas (Mexico) and James O. Fantone (Philippines) – both native to their respective countries. The Executive Director is Dr. Jeremi Brewer, who received his PhD from Texas A&M University (College Station, Texas), performing his doctoral research on “Culture, Poverty, and Necessity Entrepreneurship.”

The Academy runs a five-week program that combines hands-on experience with classroom instruction, guest lecturers and team innovation. Upon entering The Academy, students are placed into groups and begin income-generating activities. In essence, the students put into practice the concepts they learn in class through actual business activities in the marketplace. This program and materials developed by the Gibsons have been adopted by several other organizations around the world, including Ascend Alliance in their Bolivia micro-enterprise program.[3] The program of The Academy centers on 25 “Rules of Thumb” developed by Steve and Bette Gibson to provide foundational business practices for entrepreneurs.[4] During and upon completion of the program, students of The Academy are expected to not only use their newfound skills to successfully navigate business ventures, but they are also expected to teach what they have learned to others.

While the Academy does not claim to higher aspirations, Brigham Young University - Hawaii has agreed to offer graduates of the Academy a certificate of completion,[4] making the Academy one of a small group of LDS institutions of higher education. In addition to the colleges officially sponsored by the LDS Church (BYU, BYU-Idaho, BYU-Hawaii, and the LDS Business College), the only other LDS Institutions of higher learning (albeit not officially sponsored by the Church) are Southern Virginia University and the Academy for Creating Enterprise. There is however, a new initiative by the Acorn to Oak Foundation to build a privately funded LDS university in Argentina. If successful that would bring the number of LDS institutions of higher learning (both officially sponsored and independent) to seven.

Thank you. This delights me

[Tacenda]

I think it's all tied into building good rapport with the community surrounding the temple and apartments going in. There has probably been some people upset about it.

1.5 mn is nothing, just a little interest earned on top of billions, for crying out loud. Just needs to go elsewhere too. But we don't get to say where.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Tacenda

[canard78]

Using the word 'token' seems to imply that you feel that our international students are a political gesture. Seems kind of insulting. I'd love for you to expound on what you meant by that, so that you can prove me wrong.

I wasn't making it political. Simply that if the majority of people who benefit from a free subsidy are American and there is only a very small minority of other nations getting the same equal treatment it seems like a token gesture. Why give preference to Americans?

 

As to the Church Education System, we've got the three big schools, putting aside the Jerusalem Center. Of them, Idaho is the only one that can really expand its campus right now. They were beginning to do so, and then the mission age change happened. Enrollment dropped. Campus expansion was paused in the wake of that. I expect it to resume sometime next year when the first wave of those missionaries return. So no change there for a while.

According to articles on the various BYU pages, we've got the following student body size numbers: 30,243 (Provo), 15,625 (Idaho), and approximately 2,500 (Hawaii). (For references, see: http://yfacts.byu.edu/Article?id=104, http://www2.byui.edu/IR/stats/studentsw14.htm, and http://about.byuh.edu/facts.)

Give or take an annual average new freshman class size of 6000, 4000, and 400 for those schools respectively. So a little over 10,000 slots per year for school. In 2007, some official BeSmart representatives that came to my stake to talk about applying to Church schools. They told us that about 100,000 Latter-day Saint youth - which I haven't been able to substantiate as of yet, although I'm inclined to believe them - graduate high school every year worldwide. So you're looking at a ball park 1 in 10 that are able to get in.

So we need more schools if we want to give equal educational opportunities to all members worldwide. Where do you want us to build another one or twelve? Certainly not in the United States, given the bias that you've already shown on that front. They thrive best in communities with a stable and good-sized LDS population. Where do you want them to put them? South America would be my bet, but it's unlikely right now. It's quite an investment to start a new school, and a bigger one to keep it going. Southern Virginia University has struggled. Their student body is small, and their high tuition reflects that. Nauvoo University only lasted about a year (2009ish) before they had to fold. It's an exceptionally expensive business, and the massive cost of building up theoretical new schools - where we'll be subsidizing two-thirds of the tuition of the students - would probably necessitate cutbacks in other areas of church spending, like welfare assistance. And no one wants that.

Also, Idaho and Hawaii were established church schools that have been expanded under the BYU name. You can read in Greg Prince's David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism about the struggle that Idaho had to survive under the Wilkinson regime.

So what does the Church do right now? More than any of us know, you included. But only some of it makes the news, and everyone here should remember that before they bellyache about how they don't approve.

How did you get 6,000/year into a school of 30,000 and 4,00/year into a school of 15,000?

The difficultly of building schools in other countries doesn't mean that funds couldn't be diverted to support them. If only 1/10 Mormon youth can be supported shouldn't it be those most in need rather than most of those 1/10 being Americans?

Edited April 28, 2014 by canard78

[Alan]

You pop some fireworks about it once a year and feel proud but the mention of it in the BoM doesn't make it some sacred calf to worship.

It was a functional step in bringing the USA its independence from UK. It isn't some holy moment that needs to be worshipped.

 

Quite right canard78.

The Constitution isn't scripture either, but many American saints, for all practical purposes, appear to give it that status.

I have had a conversation recently with someone regarding a current political issue in the US, and their opposition to it is based solely on the argument "it's contrary to the constitution", as if that was the final arbitor on this or any other issue. My reply was to amend the constitution then, just as has been done umpteen times in the past. But it seems that for some that is tantamount to apostacy.

[Alan]

Obviously you would, given you have agreed with him from the start.

Kenngo referenced 1 Nep 13 as his source. In that chapter the following historical events are referenced (depending on the interpretation):

- Apostacy (v5)

- Martyrdom/oppression of saints (v5-9)

- Christopher Columbus (v12)

- The conquistadors or the mayflower/other emigration (v13)

- Persecution of natives - Mesoamerican and/or North American (v14)

- Colonisation of North/South America by Europeans (v15)

- American revolution (v17-18)

- Growth of Christianity (v20-23)

- Corruption of the Bible (v28)

- Efforts to preserve the native Americans (v31)

-Reformation (v34-35)

Kenngo said he knew of no other event referenced in the Book of Mormon that was part of the process of creating an environment to make the restoration possible. In just one verse I've referenced 10 others. So I ask again, out of that long sequence of historical events, why does just one of them merit special treatment?

Maybe you should be calling for the church to donate $1.5mn to the colosseums of Rome, or even to the monuments to the 1700/1800s repression of welsh Congregationalist/nonconformist churches (which lead to increased emigration from Wales to USA).

 

 

Excellent post.

[Alan]

Alan, can you explain how these are sacred funds?

 

Because they are funds that belong to the church.

[canard78]

Alan, can you explain how these are sacred funds?

 

We've got a mixed line of argument on this thread.

 

Either they're church funds or they're not. This hasn't been established for certain either way but if they are church funds are they not sacred? Do you have any evidence that they are not church funds (whether tithing sourced or not)?