$1.5Mn Charity Donation To... A War Museum In America?

[CV75]

I agree that our opinions matter, but sometimes i think we believe that they matter way more than they actually do.  

The same with emotions and prejudices!

[The Nehor]

It'd be nice to have a suggestion box set out for and from the church leaders, or just a place to air our concerns.  Remember those boxes our teachers would put out in school?  Or did you have that?  Haha.  Why the heck do we sustain people in callings?  Our opinions matter.     

 

Why should our opinions matter?

[Tacenda]

Why should our opinions matter?

My last post for today until 10 pm, where did they all go, dang it!

So I'm using it here, don't have much time though. Ok, Nehor, why does the church have questionaires sent out to people about things, such as the temple endowment ceremony, for instance? That shouldn't be from us, but the Lord, why ask us for that? So our opinion does matter.

I'm just hoping for leaders to expand more on the reasons for some expenditures, think CC Mall, they have before, do you agree?

If you ask me for a reply or something, check this post for an answer.

[canard78]

Popping back into this thread ever once in a while, I'm just as firmly convinced that this thread definitely possibly doesn't stem from a nationalistic axe to grind.

What do I need to say to finally convince you. I'm concerned that my xenophobia is not-self evident. Do I need to rail louder and longer?

[canard78]

If God inspired church leaders to donate to this, then He must have a good reason for it.

"If" is perhaps the biggest of all the small words.

[Sleeper Cell]

The museum of the American Revolution has absolutely no relavance to the majority of church members, given that the majority of saints are not Americans; and are, quite frankly, rather pleased about that.

So pivotal events in American history have absolutely no relevance to the majority of non-American church members?  And you guys call us parochial!  

[canard78]

That's right, and I think you’re gnawing… I also think the choice is a good one from several standpoints including its mention in the Book of Mormon. That none of the other prophecies in the Book of Mormon are bad to recognize or that all are good to recognize doesn’t take away from the merits of this choice.

Yes, I would be just as happy. Your examples are also good to recognize, but it seems you started this thread to validate your feelings or to get people to empathize with you (funny way of going about it!). Personal feelings are not rational, so no rational justification will assuage them.

There is no need for me to stop! The importance of the American Revolution is both rationally explained and spiritually identified. Note that spirituality is also irrational, but the Church will always find and render support on that basis as well as rational bases.

Then you've invalidated your argument. If you feel the Welsh chapel preservation society is just as valid a recipient of a $1.5mn donation (because it has a vague role in the restoration and an even more tenuous reference in the Book of Mormon) then there's no real special reason to give the money to the war museum either. In effect you're saying that the church could give the donation to anything it sees fit and you'd support it. That's fine. I'm happy for you. It's just not very persuasive.

As for me looking for validation on this board... how long have you been around? If I were looking for validation there are several other boards I could go to. As it happens I use a range of Mormon boards to test my conclusions. I participate here to have my views challenged. I often step away from a conversation having changed my opinion as a result of the points shared. I participate on other boards for the same reason, but often to test conclusions from the other end of the spectrum. Or to help others evaluate and test their own. It's part of the intellectual rigour and spiritual exploration. This plays a part in me "studying it out."

OK Profesor Higgins, you need a remedial course (Where's Pickering?)! One’s an adjective and one’s a verb; the common root for both words is, “pel’ meaning “to push.” So ha-ha! LOL

Unfortunately, this demonstrates the irrationality of your position, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself except it sets you up for dissonance with rational arguments... P.S. My fathers weren’t anywhere near the colonies at the time of the American Revolution, so you imagination is governed by your prejudices (or is it the otehr way around?).

I'm impressed (for an American). Thank you for the lesson. As it happens, you need a second 's' in Professor and I'm not sure what the word "otehr" means.

I realise this is a dangerous game to play.

[Alan]

So pivotal events in American history have absolutely no relevance to the majority of non-American church members?   

 

No, not really.

[Scott Lloyd]

What do I need to say to finally convince you. I'm concerned that my xenophobia is not-self evident. Do I need to rail louder and longer?

No, you've railed sufficiently for my needs/desires.

 

Incidentally, xenophobia and extreme nationalism, though related, are not necessarily the same thing.

[canard78]

So pivotal events in American history have absolutely no relevance to the majority of non-American church members?  And you guys call us parochial!

I know of very few British saints who give the American Revolution a seconds thought. It has no impact on our living and learning of the gospel. It was a functional step in the process of America changing. That's not just us being proud Brits. I served in France and Belgium and never heard it mentioned when discussing the restoration and the gospel. It really isn't important to us.

[Scott Lloyd]

No, not really.

How about pivotal events in Church history?

[cdowis]

No, not really.

 

1. The church was established in the United States, and we understand that it could not have been organized anywhere else on the earth.  We also understand that the Constitution was inspired by the Lord and its defenders in order to make it possible.

 

Early American history directly impacted the establishment of the church.

 

2.  There is a temple being built in Philadelphia, which is unlikely to have any influence for members anywhere else in the world, so this money is misspent.  A temple was recently built in Preston -- how does that help me here in the United States?

 

3. This museum and the money are under the auspices of Familysearch which have spent money on other non-church, non-charity projects to raise general awareness of our ancestors and their accomplishments.

 

4. The church has built various museums on Temple Square and on the BYU campus, among other locations, for art, science, history, the Polynesian Centre in Hawaii.  Of course they have not bearing on anyone who are not locals or tourists.  I understand there are church history memorials in the UK regarding its history there == but, being in the United states, I gain absolutely no benefit on the money spent there.

 

Perhaps you should write a letter to the church officials directing them on how the church should spend its money.  Surely you recognize thaty posting here on this forum will not get you much sympathy for your viewpoint.

Edited April 28, 2014 by cdowis

[Alan]

I just tried to PM you but it seems your inbox is full (it's not accepting messages). Do you need to delete a few?

 

You're right, I didn't realise there were so many. I've now deleted most of the old ones.

[canard78]

No, you've railed sufficiently for my needs/desires.

 

Incidentally, xenophobia and extreme nationalism, though related, are not necessarily the same thing.

I can see that I've made a rod my own back for picking up on CV75

You're right, thanks for the reminder. In truth I'm neither xenophobic nor an extreme nationalist.

[Kenngo1969]

I can see that I've made a rod my own back for picking up on CV75

You're right, thanks for the reminder. In truth I'm neither xenophobic nor an extreme nationalist.

It's just those damn U.S. citizens!

 

(Sorry; couldn't resist! )

[cdowis]

You might find the answer to the question in Pres. Uchtdorf's talk about the importance of the knowledge of history, "Seeing Beyond the Leaf"

 

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/seeing-beyond-the-leaf?cid=HPFR042514741〈=eng

[Scott Lloyd]

You might find the answer to the question in Pres. Uchtdorf's talk about the importance of the knowledge of history, "Seeing Beyond the Leaf"

 

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/seeing-beyond-the-leaf?cid=HPFR042514741〈=eng

I actually had this address by President Uchtdorf in mind as well when I posed my question about pivotal events in Church history.

 

In some important ways, Church history events are intertwined with U.S. history events.

 

One of the observations President Uchtdorf made in that talk:

 

The late novelist Michael Crichton is reported to have said, “If you don’t know history, then you don’t know anything. You are a leaf that doesn’t know it is part of a tree.”[ii] History teaches us not only about the leaves of existence. It also teaches about the twigs, branches, trunks, and roots of life. And these lessons are important.

 

To be dismissive or indifferent to the events of U.S. history as they pertain to Church history is myopic indeed.

 

It reminds me of those who have such an attitude toward the history of the forced exodus of the Mormon pioneers from Nauvoo and the subsequent settlement of Utah Territory.

 

In a Mormon Battalion commemorative event in Salt Lake City in 2008, Elder Robert S. Wood of the Seventy said he has lived in areas away from Church headquarters where some Church members regarded July 24, the anniversary of the entrance of Brigham Young and the pioneers into the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, as "a Utah holiday." He said that is like saying that the exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt is a Canaan holiday.

 

Elder Wood went on to say:

 

"The events of the Mormon Battalion, the events we celebrate on the 24th of July, define us as a people whether we indeed are members of the Church whose ancestors joined the Church, or are members who joined last Saturday," he said. "We become heirs to a magnificent heritage that literally shaped who we are."

 

Edited April 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Alan]

 

 

In a Mormon Battalion commemorative event in Salt Lake City in 2008, Elder Robert S. Wood of the Seventy said he has lived in areas away from Church headquarters where some Church members regarded July 24, the anniversary of the entrance of Brigham Young and the pioneers into the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, as "a Utah holiday."

 

 

It is a Utah holiday. It isn't a holiday anywhere else.

We don't commemorate or even notice 24 July in the UK. It really doesn't mean anything here. 

We don't mean any disrespect. 

[Scott Lloyd]

It is a Utah holiday. It isn't a holiday anywhere else.

We don't commemorate or even notice 24 July in the UK. It really doesn't mean anything here. 

We don't mean any disrespect. 

It saddens and disappoints me that you've altogether missed the point.

 

The occasion and events it commemorates bear significance for each and every Church member, whether a lifelong Latter-day Saint with pioneer ancestry or the most recently baptized convert. You don't have to be a resident of Utah or have a pioneer pedigree to be able to recognize that.

 

It's not about showing respect or disrespect. It's about recognizing and honoring a legacy that is yours just as much as it is mine.

 

Similarly, you don't have to be a United States citizen or hold allegiance to the United States as a nation to recognize the inextricable link between the American Revolution and the latter-day restoration of the gospel and establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Edited to add:

 

Many -- perhaps most -- of those who immigrated in the 1800s to help put the Church on firm footing and establish its global headquarters in the Mountain West came from the United Kingdom, including most of my own ancestors who came from Wales (hence, my last name), England and Scotland.

 

Edited further to add:

 

I don't accept your self-assumed role as spokesman for Latter-day Saints in the UK in saying, "We don't commemorate or even notice 24 July in the UK. It really doesn't mean anything here."

 

For example, this is from the BBC website:

 

In the UK, whilst members of the faith are proud of their US pioneer history and the urban development it details, it is not an official Church celebration. Groups of Mormons may remember the day informally and may gather to sing Mormon folk music around the time.

(Emphasis mine)

Edited April 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

You might find the answer to the question in Pres. Uchtdorf's talk about the importance of the knowledge of history, "Seeing Beyond the Leaf"

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/seeing-beyond-the-leaf?cid=HPFR042514741〈=eng

This is a straw man, Scott Lloyd is doing the same. Where have I suggested that history is unimportant?

I love that talk and love the message central to it. I don't need to spend hours studying the American revolution to recognise the place it has in American history and, therefore, the church's history. But it's still a minor footnote in my "root and branch." I have spent many hundreds of hours studying my root and branch with very little attention to the American revolution.

To suggest my ambivalence toward the revolution means an antipathy towards all history is not accurate.

[Scott Lloyd]

This is a straw man, Scott Lloyd is doing the same. Where have I suggested that history is unimportant?

I love that talk and love the message central to it. I don't need to spend hours studying the American revolution to recognise the place it has in American history and, therefore, the church's history. But it's still a minor footnote in my "root and branch." I have spent many hundreds of hours studying my root and branch with very little attention to the American revolution.

To suggest my ambivalence toward the revolution means an antipathy towards all history is not accurate.

That you marginalize and minimize it unduly is inherent in the phrase you use, "a minor footnote."

[canard78]

It saddens and disappoints me that you've altogether missed the point.

The occasion and events it commemorates bear significance for each and every Church member, whether a lifelong Latter-day Saint with pioneer ancestry or the most recently baptized convert. You don't have to be a resident of Utah or have a pioneer pedigree to be able to recognize that.

It's not about showing respect or disrespect. It's about recognizing and honoring a legacy that is yours just as much as it is mine.

Similarly, you don't have to be a United States citizen or hold allegiance to the United States as a nation to recognize the inextricable link between the American Revolution and the latter-day restoration of the gospel and establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited to add:

Many -- perhaps most -- of those who immigrated in the 1800s to help put the Church on firm footing and establish its global headquarters in the Mountain West came from the United Kingdom, including most of my own ancestors who came from Wales (hence, my last name), England and Scotland.

Edited further to add:

I don't accept your self-assumed role as spokesman for Latter-day Saints in the UK in saying, "We don't commemorate or even notice 24 July in the UK. It really doesn't mean anything here."

For example, this is from the BBC website:

"...Groups of Mormons may remember the day informally and may gather to sing Mormon folk music around the time."

Surely Alan, a UK Mormon is a better source than the BBC?

What's a Mormon folk song?? I don't know that I've ever sung one. There might be "Come, come Ye saints" and possibly a pioneer themed talk in some units around the time.

If you're really interested, I'll ask around at church to see how many people know what 24th July is. If you'd asked me this morning what 24th July means I'd have no idea. Of the few who do know I could ask how they mark it. I would imagine the answer will be "I don't" for the majority.

[canard78]

Delete duplicate

Edited April 28, 2014 by canard78

[canard78]

That you marginalize and minimize it unduly is inherent in the phrase you use, "a minor footnote."

But that's the point. In my root and branch it is a minimal aspect. The same is true for many LDS saints, especially those outside USA. We don't think or talk about it, it's not important. I recognise that my unconventional perspectives mean I'm not representative of UK/European saints. Having said that, when I was more "conventional" it still wasn't important. I doubt many UK/European saints could name the year it happened (or decade? I don't even know how long it lasted). I would guess, without looking it up that it was 18th Century, but maybe it was 17th.

Out of interest, without looking it up, how many US saints could name the date of the Magna Carta signing? An important step in the reformation process. Or what about whether they could name the church whose door Martin Luther nailed his list?

A few pages ago I created a long list of the 1 Nep 13 timeline of events that lead to the creation of an environment where the church could be established. The American Revolution was one small step in the process. The Book of Mormon gives a grand total of 2-3 verses to it. It seems it was not much more than a footnote in history to Nephi too. Does that put me in good company?

[sethpayne]

A lot of posters on this thread have questioned why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would contribute to such a museum.  But the title of the thread is disingenuous.  This isn't just any "war museum." Your mileage may vary (although I think The Book of Mormon makes this clear) no American Revolution, no Restoration.  It's that simple.  

 

Let's make it even simpler!

 

No Representative Government, No Taxation without representation.

 

No Magna Carta, no foundation of representative government.

 

No Feudalism, no Magna Carta.

 

No Feudal Lords, no Feudalism.

 

No Agriculture, no Feudalism.

 

No Crop Rotation, poor Agriculture.

 

No irrigation, no Agriculture.

 

 

If anything, the Church should have donated $1.5M to a museum exhibit on the discovery of irrigation and water works.  As you can see, irrigation was absolutely essential to the restoration.  Simply wouldn't have happened without it.