What Is Causing Men To Fall Behind Women?

[Peppermint Patty]

On Friday I was listening to an interesting radio show on KUER about how women now lead men in many significant categories.  Women now lead men in percentage of high school graduates and college graduates. Women doctors and lawyers will soon outnumber men around the year 2017. The radio show was called "The End of Men".  I know, it sounds harsh. Here it is: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/end-men-1

 

If recent statistics can be believed, approximately 60% of LDS now are women and the gender gap in membership is growing.  What do these shifting dynamics mean for LDS women? Women's traditional roles? Why are men falling behind? Are we as women and mothers failing them? What can be done to help LDS men? 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Stargazer]

Well, those of us who are in favor of self-preservation should prefer to avoid making third cousins to Chuck Norris mad at them, so I will try to be very mild in my approach here.

 

The End of Men only really pertains to Western (and possibly mainly to US) men.  Go outside this country and I don't think you will find the figures all that alarming. 

 

Besides, it's that teensy little Y chromosome.  Eventually it will just disappear and you gals will have to reproduce like the aphids do.  One consolation is that you'll never find the toilet lid being left in the UP position again.

[LordUther]

They'll have to bring back polygamy so all those extra women can get married!  

[Duncan]

well, I was talking about this with a MD LDS friend of mine, he married a non member woman. Anyways we think that institutionally the Church doesn't adopt a rich is righteous attitude but on the local level that is how it plays out. The culture of the church for men it seems is married and successful so if you aren't that way then you can feel way out of place. if you show up with jeans and shirt (because that's all you have) and you work at say 7-11 and the other guys are dentists, company owners or something like that then you can feel out of place and you can just slip away from church. My ward is made up like that. We have doctors and unemployed brethren and everything in between. Even with wealthier folks you can not fit in due to having a six figure salary as opposed to making much more then that. Some families crack at playing keep up with the Jones'. So, I think socially men can drift away.

 

my friend married a non member because well he loved her obviously but he didn't like feeling that he was a trophy husband to show off at church stuff, I don't know him too too well but he isn't an egotistical guy at all, he told me in privacy

 

wait there's more. There is a book called, "Why men hate going to church" but I am too lazy to look it up on the amazon bookthing.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Duncan

[juliann]

What a shame that women finally moving toward their potential isn't seen as something to celebrate.

[strappinglad]

From a biological standpoint, I understand that all humans start out as female and then hormones do their thing and presto ---  males.

 

The current feminization of the educational institutions will succeed in moving more women into all areas of the workforce at the expense of home and family. Men have and will continue to lose their roles as provider and protector and subsequently many will revert to a selfish narcissistic place wherein they will participate in the breeding process but reject any further responsibility. Women CAN have it all , but they ( and society )  may not like the aftereffects.

[juliann]

By 1888 Mormon misogyny was linked with denials of women’s authority, and this resulted in a public comment by Apostle Franklin D. Richards. He said: “Every now and again we hear men speak tauntingly of the sisters and lightly of their public duties, instead of supporting and encouraging them.” Apostle Richards added: “There are also some who look with jealousy upon the moves of the sisters as though they might come to possess some of the gifts, and are afraid they [LDS women] will get away with some of the blessings of the gospel which only men ought to possess.” Because of this “envy and jealousy,” Apostle Richards said some Mormon men “don’t like to accord to them [Mormon women] anything that will raise them up and make their talents to shine forth as the daughters of Eve and Sarah.”⁸⁵   Woman’s Exponent 17 (1 Sept. 1888): 53, reprinted as Franklin D. Richards, “Women and the Priesthood” in Brian Stuy, Collected Discourses 5:16.

Perhaps that is the reason men are falling behind.  

[EllenMaksoud]

On Friday I was listening to an interesting radio show on KUER about how women now lead men in many significant categories.  Women now lead men in percentage of high school graduates and college graduates. Women doctors and lawyers will soon outnumber men around the year 2017. The radio show was called "The End of Men".  I know, it sounds harsh. Here it is: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/end-men-1

 

If recent statistics can be believed, approximately 60% of LDS now are women and the gender gap in membership is growing.  What do these shifting dynamics mean for LDS women? Women's traditional roles? Why are men falling behind? Are we as women and mothers failing them? What can be done to help LDS men? 

 

Thoughts?

Perhaps in men's minds, there always has to be a best, or a winner?  Some men can't seem to stomach that a woman would stand up to them. The one I can specifically think of is really bossy and irritating to me. Today we were on a service project and I was shoveling dirt right along side a missionary, while this guy is standing around giving orders, I eventually told him to quit standing there giving orders and get to work like the rest of us. He started talking to me, telling me that I should fear a bolt of lightning from God.  The rest I have to say about him just disappears in smoke.

 

Actually, almost all men I know are quite gentle and work hard as leaders. And, I think that the men I know in the church carry a heavy burden and do it with dignity, but It all has to be about Heavenly Father and no one's ego.

[Storm Rider]

For the last 40 years in the US we have focused on girls at the expense of boys. When the culture and society only encourages girls, their success is being built at the expense of boys. It was never take your child to work day; just take your daughter to work. Elementary and Middle school athletics have been marginalized for many reasons; all at the expense of boys. All social ills are laid at the feet of men.

 

I can't remember the woman's name, but when asked about her feelings about a large Christian gathering of men, the Promise Keepers, she was glad that it got all of the child molesters out of the home for an evening. I pray to God that it is an exaggeration, but it says something that a woman would feel so comfortable in the situation to provide such an answer. Where does that kind of comfort come from and how did it develop?

 

There are lots of programs designed specifically for girls and women to improve; women in tech, women in math, women in science.  When was the last time you saw a program designed specifically for boys to succeed in an area where they typically inclined to follow?

 

When our son first entered the second grade his math teacher was a roaring feminist. After several meetings to improve the learning environment for our son, who was very gifted in math, this fine example of a teacher told my wife and I that it was vital that she ignore the boys in order that the girls could succeed. That Friday was the last day our son was in her classroom and that school. We immediate transferred him to another public school, which did a great job. When then took our children out of the public school system and entered the private school system and never had another problem.

 

Building a group's success on the shoulders of another group is never healthy or wise. It produces consequences that we have yet to see the full effects.

[3DOP]

I've seen a sign posted. It reads that you should get help if you can't lift the container "two high". Two high? Two high? What a joke. What weaklings! Nah...I have to remember. Its just the gender gap. Women don't seem to have any problem admitting they can't do something. They'll admit how hard they think it is to get the tubs apart or that they are too heavy. You can explain ways to do it without being Hercules and they won't listen. All they care about is that somebody else does it. So what happens? That fat old man with bursitis in his shoulder and two back surgeries stacks them four high in the room and then five high in his trailer. Why? How does that happen? I think it is precisely because he is a man mentally. He figures out a better way to do it. He will not concede that it is beyond his strength. He works through the pain. There will always be room for the man who won't quit when its hard and it hurts. Women don't have that. They go "two high" with no shame at all. I've seen it my entire working life.

 

Then you go to the toilet and there is this sign saying to put the seat back down. No man ever put a sign up asking for the seat to be lifted.

 

AND THAT"S WHY MEN MAKE MORE MONEY. ITS A MENTALITY.

 

Additionally...Jimi Hendrix was a man. So was Michaelangelo. Beethoven, Tolstoy, and Joseph Smith. So was Shakespeare, Muhammad Ali, and Aristotle. There are a few others of my most excellent sex. But for now I rest my case.

 

Go men. You rock. 

 

3DOP

Edited September 15, 2013 by 3DOP

[Stargazer]

Wow, 3DOP, really asking for it, aren't you?

 

My wife can run rings around any man (including me) when it comes to a capacity for doing work, lots of work, and hard work.  She shames me sometimes with just how willing she is to jump in and get IT done, whatever it is. 

 

But I have explained to her ten times how to check her voice mail on her cell phone, how to check voice mail on our home phone, and how to adjust the side mirrors on our van (hint: there's a sliding switch and a four-way knob to rotate the mirrors up/down/left/right).  She is not stupid, but she will not "get it".  I've warned the people who call her on her cell phone that there's no point in leaving a message, because she will not even check to see if she has one.  "How do I do this again?"  She asks.  It's frustrating.

 

Recently I tried a test.  She asked me to put this one particular heavy thing away for her, and I said "I can't do it right now.  Later!"  She waited and waited, and reminded me (my answer was the same).  Finally she did it herself.  Obviously she didn't need ME to do it.  I just don't get this.

[Robert F. Smith]

...........................................   

Thoughts?

Yeh.  I've said it in testimony meeting, in class, in ward council, and in PEC:  The women of the ward do a better job than the men. They are more assiduous in visiting teaching, and the stats show it.  Relief Society is the most effective organization in the Church.  When your mother dies, they are there to wash and dress the body for burial.  They are there with food for the bereaved family after the memorial service.  When there is tragedy, they are there.  A true sisterhood which is fully supportive of the men.  Women make the most effective missionaries, and a strong woman who has been on a mission is a true helpmeet for her husband, i.e., they are equals and supportive of one another, which makes all the difference in the successful raising of children.  It is little surprise to me that they are now pulling ahead of men in professional areas.

 

What about the men who are not quite up to it?  Women can be very encouraging and helpful, but men are free agents who can waste their lives in booze, porn, gambling, and crime -- or in the selfish pursuit of business or political success, in which preening vanity and cutthroat deals dominate every waking moment.  Women will no doubt find themselves more and more involved in just such tawdry pursuits, because the devil does wear Prada, and women can do dumb, even criminal things -- even if not nearly to the extent that men do.

 

Women do bring a civilizing influence to society in general and to their mates in particular.  Perhaps female spirits were always higher in quality than the males.  Perhaps the males are given the priesthood because they have more need to be tested.  Perhaps the females were sent along to provide encouragement, love, and an incentive to the male spirits to get their acts together.  Perhaps we will understand this better on the other side, when we have gained a little perspective.

[Tacenda]

Robert, snap out of it, wake up, smell the coffee, where have you been? Women are just as bad as any man I've seen. Maybe you are pulling off some reverse psychology and I'm biting but I happen to know, women are not all that, because I am one and I have been and am a recipient of bad behaviour. Not so much on VT, I always strive to do it. And have seen better HT'g in my ward atleast, than VT'g. The men in my ward are rather amazing, accomplished but there for family, kind of guys. So wherever you live it might be a problem but not from my standpoint, why look at Hamba on this board! And so many more!

[Calm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/education/harvard-case-study-gender-equity.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert, snap out of it, wake up, smell the coffee, where have you been? Women are just as bad as any man I've seen. Maybe you are pulling off some reverse psychology and I'm biting but I happen to know, women are not all that, because I am one and I have been and am a recipient of bad behaviour. Not so much on VT, I always strive to do it. And have seen better HT'g in my ward atleast, than VT'g. The men in my ward are rather amazing, accomplished but there for family, kind of guys. So wherever you live it might be a problem but not from my standpoint, why look at Hamba on this board! And so many more!

I used to work in the L.A. County Jail, Tacenda, and I frequently had female trustees work for me.  We couldn't trust the male prisoners to work outside the facility, and not only because they were far more violent.

 

We had about 20,000 prisoners in the whole County system, but only about 2,000 of those were female.  Moreover, their crimes were much milder: drug use, prostitution, petty theft, and the like.  Outside, many of them were brutalized or pimped by their husbands or boyfriends.  Many of them got into drugs due to their boyfriends and husbands.  It was a way of life which still goes on.  Pretty sad.

 

As for "smelling the coffee," never touch the stuff, and I don't like postum either (although my mother used to drink it).

[Tacenda]

Just an expression, didn't think you did (drink coffee). I guess you have seen enough that would give you a broader perspective of men. Do you think their mothers weren't there for them? Those prisoners, do women need to be better mothers?

[Calm]

http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-academia

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/840094-196/male-elementary-school-teachers--are-a.html

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/840094-196/male-elementary-school-teachers--are-a.html

"The number of males in the classroom in general has been slipping over the years. A 2008 study by the National Education Association found the number of male teachers had reached a 40-year low, with men accounting for only 25 percent of all public school teachers nationwide.

However, the question is why so few of those men who do go into education look to the elementary level as an option. In New Hampshire schools, the male-female gap closes significantly at the higher levels. Females account for 75 percent of teachers in middle schools and 60 percent in high schools."

Compare involvement of men in the higher, more prestigious, better paid teaching positions with their presence in the lower status, lower paid ones.

When men are willing to be involved in teaching boys at the elementary and middle school levels as women are, then both groups will get their needs met.

Women haven't had their advances handed to them on a silver platter....those who were passionate about their cause were willing to make the sacrifices needed, men have to care as much to get out and do it for themselves as well and that includes pushing their comfort levels and being willing to take lower paid, less prestigious jobs to make a difference. They can't just try to dictate to women how to do the job, even if women are willing to try and achieve promotion of male needs (and I suspect the vast majority are as long as female needs are promoted as well), they have to be willing to do it themselves...boys have to have male role models in the classroom.

Edited September 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[Robert F. Smith]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/education/harvard-case-study-gender-equity.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

Wonderful article!

I  kept asking myself, though, what sort of student was Mitt Romney at the old Harvard Business School?

[Storm Rider]

http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-academia

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/840094-196/male-elementary-school-teachers--are-a.html

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/840094-196/male-elementary-school-teachers--are-a.html

"The number of males in the classroom in general has been slipping over the years. A 2008 study by the National Education Association found the number of male teachers had reached a 40-year low, with men accounting for only 25 percent of all public school teachers nationwide.

However, the question is why so few of those men who do go into education look to the elementary level as an option. In New Hampshire schools, the male-female gap closes significantly at the higher levels. Females account for 75 percent of teachers in middle schools and 60 percent in high schools."

Compare involvement of men in the higher, more prestigious, better paid teaching positions with their presence in the lower status, lower paid ones.

When men are willing to be involved in teaching boys at the elementary and middle school levels as women are, then both groups will get their needs met.

Women haven't had their advances handed to them on a silver platter....those who were passionate about their cause were willing to make the sacrifices needed, men have to care as much to get out and do it for themselves as well and that includes pushing their comfort levels and being willing to take lower paid, less prestigious jobs to make a difference. They can't just try to dictate to women how to do the job, even if women are willing to try and achieve promotion of male needs (and I suspect the vast majority are as long as female needs are promoted as well), they have to be willing to do it themselves...boys have to have male role models in the classroom.

 

Can, you seem to be jumping way ahead of yourself. So Harvard hires a number of women deans; specifically goes after women teachers - not the best teachers available for given subjects, but women professors - the list goes on and it goes on at every business in the US. A gender is hired, not the most qualified. Where in all of that searching is the grueling work, the price that was paid; women have become the winners for no other reason than they have a specific gender.

 

I know this rubs you the wrong way, but how am I supposed to judge a woman professor at Harvard now or at any other business or institution? Did she get the job because she was the most qualified or did she get the job because she has the right gender? Was Clinton really the most qualified candidate for Secretary of State or was she a woman first and foremost?

 

Any time you grant positions for qualities that are out of the control of the individual - race or gender - you have some very unwanted results. The issue is hire the most qualified for the job; not someone who is the right gender or the right race.

 

Does anyone think it is ludicrous to teach professional women how to raise their hand in class? 

[Calm]

I know this rubs you the wrong way

You have no clue about what rubs me the wrong way.

 

I did not even comment about the article you are complaining about, just posted it as interesting info for its POV (which I neither support nor reject as I don't have knowledge of the circumstances at Harvard).

 

I am not one for putting a female candidate forward if she doesn't have equal or superior qualifications.  The only way I think 'affirmative action' for females will work in the long run is to use it as the last variable judged (two or more equal candidates...who do we hired if we have less females on the staff...and they should hired more men in the equal cases where there are less of them on the staff as in elementary schools) but it is also necessary to remove gender specific qualifications (do we worry about women leaving for maternity leave or cutting short their career to raise a family or being the ones more like to take care of sick kids, do we worry about men being potential child molesters, etc).

 

I personally am against lowering physical endurance/strength standards in military, police, fire and other safety jobs that require a certain level of physical ability even if this penalizes women.

 

The post you quoted---which you apparently ignored---is about the inequality of men in elementary and middle school positions as opposed to the higher educational opportunities.  I am not talking here about pushing for women candidates, but men...their choices not to pursue such career opportunities (as opposed to being excluded by others) are influencing what kind of education boys are getting.  Rather than just complaining about the lack of proper education for boys (though attention needs to be brought to it where it actually exists), men should be getting in there and doing something rather than demanding that women (mostly) take care of it.  Until they do, the gap will likely just continue to grow even if women attempt to close it.

 

PS:  I think the below is completely inappropriate as well, teachers should be finding ways that encourage both genders as much as possible...that might mean pushing one gender in one area more than the other, but never to the total neglect of the other and always with balancing it with pushing the other gender in the areas where it is weak or if that is not relevant for a particular teacher, balancing it with more positive reinforcements for the one gender in areas where they are equal after the part of the curriculum where the other gender is being favoured in hopes of promoting more interaction or confidence in an area where that gender is generally weak.

 

 this fine example of a teacher told my wife and I that it was vital that she ignore the boys in order that the girls could succeed.

PPS:  You might want to consider why you reacted in such a way to the simple posting of a link while ignoring a post that actually dealt with what men could do about the issue.

Edited September 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[CV75]

What can be done to help LDS men? 

I believe the Lord designed the sexes as equal in every capacity, and different in how we carry out those capacities. Some have directed their capacities in the wrong way, or in the way that was not designed, to teh extent of detracting from the plan of happiness through pride and enmity. Anything opposite AoF13 will ruin us, and anything in line with Moroni 7:12-16 will edify us together--helping each other regardles of sex. Help the women in righteousness and you will help the men; help the men likewise and you will help the women.

[Calm]

Here is another website dealing with the problem I brought up:

 

http://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers

[3DOP]

Stargazer

Wow, 3DOP, really asking for it, aren't you?

 

3DOP

Yeah. I woke up this morning asking myself if I really posted that. I have seldom been so candid. Ready for another observation?

 

It does not concern me that more women now are doctors. My immediate concern is: Why won't women "mash the gas"?

 

I understand that a set of doubles can appear intimidating when you are trying to merge on to the freeway. But consider this, ladies. My speed is going to be constant. There is no reason to suppose I want to hit you. I can tell by the way the vehicle is being operated whether a driver is female or not by how they merge into traffic. It is consistently the female drivers who panic when they see me behind or beside them with plenty of time and merging lane to get ahead of me. Often they only need to continue accelerating at the same speed. Why are you slowing down now? You have me beat. "Go girl, get in!" If they are even with me they still have the advantage. But they won't speed up (my preference) so that they can go ahead. Occasionally they slow down unnecessarily and come in behind. That's okay. That'll work as long as you don't get mad about it. Usually they just maintain the same speed and look frantic. I move over if I can but sometimes, in the city especially, there isn't room for me to move 75 feet of machinery to the next lane. The length of my vehicle only affects how difficult it is for ME to change lanes. Please, stop being intimidated by the height and length. I don't have the acceleration to ram if that was what I wanted. In almost all of the cars you girls drive, you have the power.

Edited September 15, 2013 by 3DOP

[Questing Beast]

On Friday I was listening to an interesting radio show on KUER about how women now lead men in many significant categories.  Women now lead men in percentage of high school graduates and college graduates. Women doctors and lawyers will soon outnumber men around the year 2017. The radio show was called "The End of Men".  I know, it sounds harsh. Here it is: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/end-men-1

 

If recent statistics can be believed, approximately 60% of LDS now are women and the gender gap in membership is growing.  What do these shifting dynamics mean for LDS women? Women's traditional roles? Why are men falling behind? Are we as women and mothers failing them? What can be done to help LDS men? 

 

Thoughts?

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60758-the-demise-of-guys-the-end-of-men-and-where-have-all-the-good-men-gone/ There is no simple answer. Nobody knows what is going on, but there are a lot of opinions.

 

I think that men are fundamentally out of their depth in this kind of world. What is happening is that men are becoming more like women if they want to fit into the professional (money-making) world. Men and women are becoming more alike in other words. Men who continue to exude the "manly" or macho persona and interests are marginalized to a lesser or greater degree; they are almost a derogatory stereotypical butt for jokes, from TV commercials to feminist angst in the Medía generally. In the LDS faith, men continue to hold out as the "leaders", but that is only a formality: since women are the actual leaders in almost every respect. Without the "priesthood", men would languish far beneath women in the Church. One day soon, men will be redundant, as genetic technology makes their physical contribution to making babies unnecessary. Once men and women don't have to be physically depended on to produce the next generation (artificial material brought to term in an artificial environment), men and women will be equal again: equally redundant, and the world will be an unrecognizable place. That is my scifi side talking, but it looms as a possible scenario of the future. For now, men need to "grow a pair" and sit at their 'puters and stop complaining that all the jobs they really want to do (especially fightin' and killin' for God) are drying up and blowing away....

[Tacenda]

3DOP, is it because we aren't aggressive enough? I know also, when I am in family gatherings, sometimes it's the men who do most the talking. Why are some women timid when men are around, maybe that's why they don't speed ahead. And a big piece of machinery like you're driving is scary to navigate. It could be our perspective is different too. My husband is a horrible driver, he'll wear his seatbelt over his left arm so it looks like he has it on. I guess he'll save an arm atleast, but hope he doesn't kill a passenger in a wreck if he flies into them.. Also, he rarely puts on his blinker, only if it's necessary. And he runs stop signs and the occassional light, he isn't paying attention to them. When he's driving, I'm driving too, mentally.