What Is Causing Men To Fall Behind Women?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On Friday I was listening to an interesting radio show on KUER about how women now lead men in many significant categories.  Women now lead men in percentage of high school graduates and college graduates. Women doctors and lawyers will soon outnumber men around the year 2017. The radio show was called "The End of Men".  I know, it sounds harsh. Here it is: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/end-men-1

 

If recent statistics can be believed, approximately 60% of LDS now are women and the gender gap in membership is growing.  What do these shifting dynamics mean for LDS women? Women's traditional roles? Why are men falling behind? Are we as women and mothers failing them? What can be done to help LDS men? 

 

Thoughts?

This is a serious problem, especially within our Church which is supposed to be "lead" by boys and men of the Priesthood. This has serious implications for what Nations will have what kid of leaders in military roles. Many of these can have men or women in leadership, but so things require strong men to lead weaker men into leadership roles...and the list goes on.

[Calm]

From what I read it does not appear that the gender of teachers was taken into account. Are you alleging the results would be different if all the teachers were male?

It is certainly possible.  Perhaps boys would pay more attention to male teachers than female, perhaps male teachers would interact more with boys than female teachers.  Perhaps male teachers would have inherently different styles of teaching due to their own different ways of learning.  One cannot tell if one does not study them.  I know in the elementary schools my kids were in, the relationships and perceptions of the two male teachers were significantly different than the female teachers and reports seemed to indicate a different teaching style as well.

Edited September 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 Like I said in another post, we took our son out of a school because of bias (that was some 20 years ago).  

Didn't you also say that for the rest of the year he was in another school and did fine (and then you took him out)?  I can't remember the details...

[Calm]

As far as the larger world, modern tech has made a society where men's strengths ( Agression, physical exertion, etc) are now weaknesses, and women's strengths (ability to sit still, etc) tailor to the new reality.

 

If I ever have kids, I'm really hoping for girls. they will be much better off in today's world.

Read about the gender gap in earnings as well as government positions...perhaps you will not be so certain then.

[Stone holm]

Sorry I don't understand the rules, and as I said before, I am new. The person I was quoting said I have a small brain. Can i not respond to that?

 

Make a post report for name calling and the offender will usually be blocked from posting in the thread again.  There is a post report button at the bottom right,  please do not derail the thread by responding to taunts. 

It sometimes takes awhile for the moderators to pull someone. They just made it so he could no longer see or comment on this thread.

[Calm]

Single parent homes are an issue, but that would impact all children rather than a single gender.

 

That would depend on two things....if single parents were equally divided between male and female parents....they are not, they are most often female, thus providing role models for girls but not for boys.  This could have a significant impact.  It is also possible that girls are more prone to be self-motivated when it comes to school activities while boys need more supervision and input from parents and a single parent doesn't have the opportunity as much as having two parents available...even if both work fulltime, that is still double the opportunity for a single parent who works fulltime.

 

My memory says that Headstart programs show a significant different the first few years, but eventually it is as if the kids never went through them. The difference is the involvement of the parents, the program working with parents causing kids to improve but without the continual support of the program the parents drop out and then the kid does.  

 

If this impacts boys more than girls, single parents not having as much time to be involved combined with the huge increase in single parents would make a huge impact on success  of boys.

[Calm]

 

 

The Op said: "approximately 60% of LDS now are women and the gender gap in membership is growing"

 

I believe this is due to the LDS policies on pornography.

But the Church has always been against porn, so why does it make a difference now and not before?

Edited September 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

1."Significant categories," as per who's evaluation/

2. "Women doctors and lawyers will soon outnumber men around the year 2017." So freakin' what. How, exactly, is that at all an issue? Who cares what the gender balance of the specific societal responsibility is? What is the difference in terms of societal needs between "doctors & lawyers", mechanics, mechanical technicians, digital technicians, or ... whatever (hell, or car salesmen/women)? Are proficient mechanics any less useful to society than "doctors or lawyers." I'll guaranty that more of the former are required than the later (as long as folks take personal responsibility for their heath). 

 

Potential real societal solutions are much more varied than most stogie folk can imagine.

There are more women than men out there so there should be some outnumbering in every balanced job.  There are jobs that favour the strengths of women over men and the reverse (see TSS's post).  This cannot be helped in many cases and standards should not, imo, where necessary (such as physical requirements in safety jobs) be changed to promote the less dominate sex.

 

It should be noted too that even if women doctors outnumber men, that male doctors still get paid much more than females because certain specialities get paid more and those specialities tend to be male dominated for some reason.  I don't know if it is the same for lawyers...women getting paid less, but I wouldn't be surprised.  Perhaps this will change if women come to outnumber men in a field and thus have more impact on the field's culture, but if so, that will take some time to develop....

[The Nehor]

But the Church has always been against porn, so why does it make a difference now and not before?

 

Ease of access.

 

In the 70s you had to go out and find porn.

In the 80s you could get it more easily on TV if you tried.

In the 90s you could download it with a lot of know-how and time.

In the early 00s you just had to know where to look.

From then on you could find it easily by accident and could go from interest to watching or reading porn in less then 15 seconds.

 

The warnings about pornographic images in magazines with the stock scenario of a bunch of kids gathering around at a party I got when I was a kid in the 80s seem so quaint they are almost cute now.

 

 

The comic author's advice:

 

Parents: Talk to your kids about popup blockers. Also, at some point, sex. But crucial fundamentals first!

[cursor]

As far as the larger world, modern tech has made a society where men's strengths ( Agression, physical exertion, etc) are now weaknesses, and women's strengths (ability to sit still, etc) tailor to the new reality.

 

If I ever have kids, I'm really hoping for girls. they will be much better off in today's world.

 

Kowabunga ...

 

Men's strengths are "aggression, physical exertion, etc."?

I'm sincerely sorry for your limited upbringing.

 

Women's strengths include the "ability to sit still." and "tailor to the new reality" (however the hell that might be defined ... hopefully not by you). Dude ... you don't know my wife. And, dude (I made sure to NOT capitalize the 'D'), you certainly don't have a clue about my daughter's character. 

[AndyDnom]

Kowabunga ...

 

Men's strengths are "aggression, physical exertion, etc."?

I'm sincerely sorry for your limited upbringing.

 

Women's strengths include the "ability to sit still." and "tailor to the new reality" (however the hell that might be defined ... hopefully not by you). Dude ... you don't know my wife. And, dude (I made sure to NOT capitalize the 'D'), you certainly don't have a clue about my daughter's character. 

 

These were generalizations. There are obviously exceptions. I included the generalizations, because the question involved generalizations. Not ALL men are falling behind and not ALL women are pulling ahead. However, I see no problem with looking at larger trends and examples, in response to a general question. Obviously any one wife or daughter can be an exception.

[AndyDnom]

Ease of access.

 

In the 70s you had to go out and find porn.

In the 80s you could get it more easily on TV if you tried.

In the 90s you could download it with a lot of know-how and time.

In the early 00s you just had to know where to look.

From then on you could find it easily by accident and could go from interest to watching or reading porn in less then 15 seconds.

 

The warnings about pornographic images in magazines with the stock scenario of a bunch of kids gathering around at a party I got when I was a kid in the 80s seem so quaint they are almost cute now.

 

 

The comic author's advice:

 

Parents: Talk to your kids about popup blockers. Also, at some point, sex. But crucial fundamentals first!

 

Exactly. Porn is EVERYWHERE now, and mormon men are more drawn to it than mormon women ( again, generalizing. ) Users of porn will tend to get pulled out of the church, for one reason or another. Therefore, the percentage of women who are active LDS will continue to grow unless something changes.

 

I am sorry to anyone i offended and for not knowing board rules. See you guys in different threads in the future.

 

Andy

[cursor]

Thanks for your honesty AndyDnom. I'll look forward to your future posts in this, and any other forum segments. Welcome aboard.

[Calm]

Kowabunga ...

 

Men's strengths are "aggression, physical exertion, etc."?

I'm sincerely sorry for your limited upbringing.

 

Women's strengths include the "ability to sit still." and "tailor to the new reality" (however the hell that might be defined ... hopefully not by you). Dude ... you don't know my wife. And, dude (I made sure to NOT capitalize the 'D'), you certainly don't have a clue about my daughter's character. 

I am glad someone else spoke up.  My son would get his legos and out and play in one spot days on end.  My daughter....well, let's just say by the end of each day it took sometime to restore the house back to its tidied state in almost every room.  I was thinking perhaps they were unusual cases, but I don't think that my daughter was that big of one seeing her friends and other girls, teaching them in Primary and Achievement Days and especially volunteering at school for all my kids' elementary years save the year of my daughter's birth (so a total of 13).  My son was more unusual though, I will grant that, he could sit when alone just fine and play vigorously when in a group...though he didn't start reading on his own till 3rd grade but from then on he read constantly.  We did read to him every night almost though so I know that makes a difference (which is why they have or at least had the 20 minute a day Pizza Hut Read It programs).  We had problems with his 1st Grade teacher---enough so that I tried to be there every day to ensure she wouldn't have a screaming fit in front of the kids.  She would give me stuff to xerox to get me out of the room so that by the end of the year it was lining all along the wall under the windows in over foot high piles, wouldn't let me work with the kids alone at all and then bragged to me 3 months into the year how only one afternoon work's finally got one girl to be able to write her name....after I had volunteered time after time to take her apart from the group and work with her since she obviously couldn't manage what the group was doing at the time.  I never hated a teacher before or after, not because she was rude to me but because she put her ego over the kids time and time again.  She thought she was a magnificent teacher, too good to allow anyone else access to her kids.  There were 15 kids in her class and 30+ in the other teacher's due to parents demanding their kid to be taken out and she still didn't get the message.  The principal told me he had to keep mine in as no more could be transfer and he was sure I would be able to make up for the difference.   He couldn't fire her though he wanted to and she refused to retire though she could have because her husband was very sick with diabetes and needed the extra benefits supposedly (I would think he would be as well covered, so I suspect it was building up the pension higher that motivated her...she did not seem to enjoy teaching by that point).  Knowing how scarred my kid would be if she screamed at him, I translated that into being there every day for as much of it as I could manage (which was generally almost every afternoon at least).  Since the other kids were the ones with parents who didn't care as much (the ones that did made sure their kid was transferred), I was the only one there and because of her refusing to let me interact with the kids very much I don't know if managed to help much in that way, but at least I prevented a lot of emotional scarring.

 

And for my daughter when she got diabetes...well, perhaps it will suffice to say she was on the honor roll even though she hadn't attended 1/3 of the days and didn't get at least half of the work done, nor could we get special homework for her to cover the days when she missed.  And I had to attend every day she did as well because they refused to let her test her blood sugars in class and she could have passed out by the time she got to the nurse's office on her own...including on cement stairs where she would have nicely cracked her skull in falling.

 

So I have been through the nightmare teacher/school with my kids...and with one or two occasions myself growing up.  In the end, my son did great in school, has a very nice job in computer programming and already owns his own large house and is looking possibly to being a millionaire if one or two deals go through and he just past 30, my daughter is still brilliant though due to her health issues is homebound and we haven't yet figured out what she will be able to do as far as a job is concerned.  And obviously my own genius and success should be obvious in spite have having had bad teaching in some of my years, a parent who wasn't able to help due to her own health issues (though we had endless talks about psychology and religion and myths and such) and another parent whose only interaction with school was to insist on no TV until on school nights and As as the only acceptable grade and teachers who were clueless about my special needs and some significant emotional scarring because of it.

 

I believe the evidence is there that success at school is much more a function of homelife than schools save in those areas where the schools don't have the resources to meet the needs of the students or the environment is so hostile that kids live in fear.

 

Having said that, again if men want things to change, they need to get personally involved so that their needs can be known and addressed and the best way to do this is to get more men as teachers in the early years so that they can have the impact right where it is needed.

[Stone holm]

There is this odd thing about porn. I am most knowledge myself about Vermont and Indiana. Indiana has adopted all kinds of anti porn legislation, etc and has adult bookstores and gentlemens clubs all over the place, Vermont has no general porn laws only ones directed to protect children and such things as adult bookstores and gentlemens clubs are very rare. In Vermont when towns discuss nudity laws they actually have discussions about not wanting to prohibit skinny dipping at the local swimming hole. I personally think this national obsession with sex both in our politics and churches is part of the problem. If more women would just object to being treated as sex objects and domestic slaves, that would be the most effective approach.

[Tacenda]

Having said that, again if men want things to change, they need to get personally involved so that their needs can be known and addressed and the best way to do this is to get more men as teachers in the early years so that they can have the impact right where it is needed.

I agree, but see how hard it would be to provide for their families on a teacher's pay. 

 

Way to go on taking care of your daughter that way!  Sounds like that teacher was lethal.  I'm glad that schools are better with children with diabetes now.  At least in my school district the children, with the teacher nearby, test themselves throughout the day. 

 

I remember a girl that had severe anxiety (?) and would pull all her hair out.  She eventually just went to hats.  Saddest thing I've ever seen.  She looked like she'd had chemo/radiation treatment. 

 

For boys (or girls), that can't sit still, they allow them to stand and also give them something to hold and play with, which helps.  So I see that some districts are making strides.    

 

I can relate somewhat to not being able to get a child out of an abusive teacher's class.  At the time, I guess I didn't think it was abusive, but my son had a Jr. High teacher that would say how cute he was when he smiled or that he had sparkly eyes.  Well this embarrassed him so much, he wanted out of there.  But the school wouldn't do it.  The other classes were full.  Now I see that I should have worked harder to get him out of her class. 

 

So often I just thought my kids should just deal with it because in life they might have a terrible boss or whatever.  But now see that they are not that mature and we really need to watch for these teachers that may make life miserable enough that they'll hate school and learning, or give up and think it's their fault.   

[Anti-NOMunistJackMormon]

There are very high expectations for men in the church too. I think many men who don't fit the mold just don't make the cut to the detriment of the church.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Anti-NOMunistJackMormon

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The Op said: "approximately 60% of LDS now are women and the gender gap in membership is growing"

I believe this is due to the LDS policies on pornography.

I would hope all Churches feel the same about porn...I would ask how you came to this conclusion, but I fear the response. My take is there are more women than men and porngraphy can only hurt the Spirit of men, especially boys and their reverence for women and marriage. Nuf-said on that topic. Edited September 18, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[bluebell]

There are very high expectations for men in the church too. I think many men who don't fit the mold just don't make the cut to the detriment of the church.

 

Do you believe that expectations for men in the church are higher than they are for women?

[Stone holm]

I would hope all Churches fell the same about porn...I would ask how you came to this conclusion, but I fear the response. My take is there are more women than men and porngraphy can only hurt the Spirit of men, especially boys and their reverence for women and marriage. Nuf-said on that topic.

Seems unlikely the gender gap is due to porn. I wonder about men being more susceptible to porn. Might it be that women because of societal attitude find it easier to move from spectator to participant status.

[Alvino]

I clearly split my posts up into two parts. The OP asked two questions. #1 why are men falling behind in the bigger world, #2 why are more women active. I answered both in separate posts. #1 - Due to modern tech and a different need for skill sets. It is no longer a big need to have someone that can hunt a saber tooth tiger. But we do need people to be dental hygenists, Provide Elder care.

 

Now, that's interesting because some would argue that the reason men absolutely dominate in engineering, math, and the 'hard' sciences is because of our brains, not because of culture. I would imagine those characteristics you attribute to men here as our 'skill set' isn't playing a big role in these areas of the sciences preferring men over women. Maybe you think these are all men in the 'exception' category? That's a pretty big exception, though.

 

for a great debate on the topic you can watch this one between Steven Pinker and Elizabeth Spelke:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJClNSkFPwE

 

 

#2 - The LDS church is the only organization I know of that has consequences imposed on its members who admit to occasional or casual pornography usage.

 

I believe that #2 is sufficient enough to account for why more men are inactive than women, despite men getting the priesthood. It's not an axe to grind. I'm a member with a temple recommend, and when I was dealing with bishops and repentance, my preferred DOC was always marijuana, not porn, FWIW.

 

 

calmoriah's question in post #82 is an important one.

 

Also, this trend isn't particular of the LDS Church. Chances are the cause of disparity in church attendance goes beyond Mormon communities and practices.

 

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-07-23-males-church_N.htm

Edited September 18, 2013 by Alvino

[Stone holm]

There are more women than men out there so there should be some outnumbering in every balanced job.  There are jobs that favour the strengths of women over men and the reverse (see TSS's post).  This cannot be helped in many cases and standards should not, imo, where necessary (such as physical requirements in safety jobs) be changed to promote the less dominate sex.

 

It should be noted too that even if women doctors outnumber men, that male doctors still get paid much more than females because certain specialities get paid more and those specialities tend to be male dominated for some reason.  I don't know if it is the same for lawyers...women getting paid less, but I wouldn't be surprised.  Perhaps this will change if women come to outnumber men in a field and thus have more impact on the field's culture, but if so, that will take some time to develop....

This is strictly anecdotal so don't CFR, but when I was processing through law school in the mid 1970's most of the top women students were shooting for labor law firms and the top men were shooting for security law firms. My guess would be that tended to work out somewhat financially better for the men. It later appeared that the women started drifting towards family law, not sure where the men refocused. Lately, I have noticed that women lawyers are starting to make real in roads into bankruptcy law where a lot are taking on the corporate giants, but they are pretty much everywhere. My guess is that in the big firms the upper echelons are still primarily gentle men's clubs, but that is just a guess.

[cursor]

These were generalizations. There are obviously exceptions. I included the generalizations, because the question involved generalizations. Not ALL men are falling behind and not ALL women are pulling ahead. However, I see no problem with looking at larger trends and examples, in response to a general question. Obviously any one wife or daughter can be an exception.

 

I wouldn't call your observation a "generalization," but rather an over-generalization. That is, grossly exaggerated, without supportive data.

Edited September 18, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

My wife, by the way, is a biomedical engineer, in complete charge of R&D at a major firm in the US. Our daughter isn't too far behind. To suggest that real gender differences are connected at all with the societal perceptions of gender abilities/limitations is ... well, pretty [unnecessarily] shortsighted. Excuse me (or don't) for being sensitive on this issue.

[thesometimesaint]

That is the difference between Sociology and Psychology. The first is an reference to the group while the latter is in reference to the individual.