A Drink In Seattle Vs. A Drink In Salt Lake City

[mfbukowski]

Let's unpack this a little, mfbukowski. Whose values? The values of the 90+% LDS Utah legislature? The values of LDS Church leadership? The values of the ~ 60% LDS Utah population? The values of the non-LDS Utah population? The values of non-LDS vistors to your state? (clearly not, I'm being rhetorical now)

Whose values, mfbukowski? Are they your values?

--Erik

They are not yours, that is clear enough.

[Five Solas]

I hate you....how dare you be the voice of reason. Kidding aside, I completely agree. If alcohol is a priority then there are issues that go beyond even LDS health ethics.

Again, I refer you to the Utah State Legislature, which has passed laws mandating warm beer sold in state controlled liquor stores. This was clearly a priority for them to pass such legislation. Are you saying they were wrong and that you actually agree with me?

:0)

Or are you saying something else, Valentinus?

--Erik

[Five Solas]

They are not yours, that is clear enough.

Indeed! And do you fault me for that, mfbukowski?

[Damien the Leper]

Hey 3DOP, I'd love to buy you a beer if you're anywhere near the U-District. We'll get a tasty IPA on tap, something not even possible in Utah (they'd have to serve it in a bottle, as their legislature has mandated). And we'll talk about how bad we have it.

:0)

And we can talk about Reformed theology, Mars Hill Church, and Catholicism. The Kraken is ~ two blocks from my house. It will be fun, I love your posts. Send me a message.

--Erik

Can I join you? I would like to talk about Jonna Petry. What would you have to say about Reformed theology that hasn't been regurgitated and vomited by Piper, Bruce, Sproul, Driscoll and Grudem?

I forgot that I was going to open a thread on why I disagree with Calvinism but got swamped by school work. If I have time, I will try and work on it.

[mfbukowski]

Seriously- are we discussing one person's complaint about not being able to buy cold beer in Utah?

Seriously?

Is that what this board has come to?

I guess it is.

[Damien the Leper]

Again, I refer you to the Utah State Legislature, which has passed laws mandating warm beer sold in state controlled liquor stores. This was clearly a priority for them to pass such legislation. Are you saying they were wrong and that you actually agree with me?

:0)

Or are you saying something else, Valentinus?

--Erik

I'm saying that the alcohol content in a beer or liquor is irrelevant to much greater world issues...just as Wade had made clear. No one is forcing Ranger or Ruination to sell to Utah vendors. If someone doesn't like how Utah maintains, sells, etc alcohol then that don't need to buy it.

However, it does seem that the OP was more of a backhanded remark to complain that there is some silly conspiracy that the lds church controls the Utah government. An assertion which has been demonstrated to be false. ne neeneed only do the research.

[Damien the Leper]

Seriously- are we discussing one person's complaint about not being able to buy cold beer in Utah?

Seriously?

Is that what this board has come to?

I guess it is.

You and I arguing about Communism was more fun and intelligible.

[Five Solas]

Seriously- are we discussing one person's complaint about not being able to buy cold beer in Utah?

Seriously?

Is that what this board has come to?

I guess it is.

We're talking about culture, religion, and the legitimacy imposing your values on those who don't share your convictions in D&C 89, as an example. Kindly look to the bigger picture, mfbukowski.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Five Solas

[Calm]

Seriously- are we discussing one person's complaint about not being able to buy cold beer in Utah?

Seriously?

Is that what this board has come to?

I guess it is.

Slow Sunday and the mods are busy elsewhere?

[Damien the Leper]

We're talking about culture, religion, and the legitimacy imposing your values on those who don't share your convictions in D&C 89, as an example. Kindly look to the bigger picture, mfbukowski.

I find this a comical remark considering how imperialistic and elitist the tenets of Reformed theology are.

[Garden Girl]

Well... in my inactive days... I did not keep the Word of Wisdom, and with my non-LDS husband would enjoy a cocktail before dinner or a cold beer on a hot summer's day in Calif.

We would sometimes drive cross country to visit family in midwest.... upon returning home we'd sometimes come through Witchita, Kansas, usually on a Saturday night... I used to kid my hubby about his taking me out on a Saturday night in Witchita... Wooo-eee...

Anyway, it was always comical to me that we had to join a "club" in order to buy a drink. I think it was $5 for a membership (in the Don Quiote club). I ordered a vodka gimlet and they made it with grapefruit juice!!

So, Five Solas, it is not just Utah with questionable laws/rules... and in Missouri you couldn't buy liquor on a Sunday... I forget some of the others that we encountered along the way... but Utah is not unique in having "different" laws...

GG

[Calm]

For a non-LDS visitor to Utah, what’s the proper way to feel about the local culture as reflected by its liquor laws?

I am curious as to how you think any visitor should feel about a culture that is different than his own. Should one condemn it just because it is different or is seen as inconvenient? Or should one just accept that people live different lives than one's own and that variety is actually what makes traveling to other places worthwhile and interesting? Edited May 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Five Solas]

I find this a comical remark considering how imperialistic and elitist the tenets of Reformed theology are.

Wildly off-topic, but carry on, Valentinus

[mfbukowski]

You and I arguing about Communism was more fun and intelligible.

I agree!

[Calm]

We're talking about culture, religion, and the legitimacy imposing your values on those who don't share your convictions in D&C 89....

Or we are talking about the attitude that one should be able to carry one's own culture on one's back as one travels to avoid any emotional inconvenience.

It is interesting to me that you are suggesting that it may not be legitimate for LDS to impose their values on others through the election of officials that put their values in the laws of the local community by suggesting that it would be better if Utah had the same values as your own state does. How is that not wishing you had the ability to impose your own values (in this case increasing the accessibility of alcohol) on a whole state?

Edited May 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

I find this a comical remark considering how imperialistic and elitist the tenets of Reformed theology are.

I was thinking exactly the same thing!

OK See y'all later!

[Damien the Leper]

Wildly off-topic, but carry on, Valentinus

Apologies. I was referring to the always reliable and ironic tactics of pot/kettle and "I know you are but what am I?"

[Duncan]

you are all small tomatoes! Now, this is drinking!

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBI68Il4Zsc

Just in case anyone is thinking, no, alcohol has never crossed these lips!

Edited May 20, 2013 by Duncan

[Tacenda]

Mfbukowski said:

Seriously- are we discussing one person's complaint about not being able to buy cold beer in Utah?

Mfbukowski, I've seen discussion on far dumber things. And not too long ago there was a thread about this very thing, if I'm reading what he's saying right, how church and state in Utah can be very blurry sometimes. I'd have to go back through all of them, but that thread wasn't touted as not being worthy to be discussed on the board.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

In the city where I live, one can buy an hour (or two) with a prostitute in a clean, well-lit, attractively apportioned brothel, secure in the knowledge that she/he has been trained in 'safe' practices and is regularly checked for any STDs. In Seattle, one can cruise the back alleys, and IF he happens to pick the right neighbourhood, buy a few furtive minutes with a prostitute in the backseat of the car ... and quite possibly pick up an STD to boot. And here’s the worst part—you pay just as much in Seattle as you do here for a whole lot less!

I'm not sure exactly which Christians I should blame for this state of affairs, but I wish you well, Erik, as you struggle to survive in such a morally repressed and unenlightened place.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Storm Rider]

Gosh guys, I am glad that I can come to the Mormon discussion board for a informative discussion on buying booze in different states as well as one on the cost of prostitution. We have come so far in demonstrating the attributes of the 13th article of faith that I am overcome with zeal and giddiness.

[sheilauk]

It's mildly diverting - one shouldn't be serious all the time!

And to take the question seriously - as a tourist, one is there for a short time and has no say or any right to a say in the culture and affairs of the place you are visiting. If you don't like it, don't visit or leave. If you want to blame anyone - then it would be the government of the place - they make the laws. Or blame the electorate who voted the government in (if the place allows voting for government). In Utah's case - the people of Utah, of all persuasions voted for a particular group of people, who then felt it was appropriate to consider, amongst other issues, the availability of alcohol. This is not really a trivial concern - the UK has had several debates over the years about it! In a democracy - the majority vote wins the balance of power and thus makes the decisions - if the people don't like it, they can vote for another group next time who might change it. If the majority voting are LDS and the majority of members of the government are LDS, then their beliefs and culture are likely to influence the system - but I don't see how the Church can be blamed - they haven't any say in the vote or decision making process!

In short - you can blame the government or the electorate, but as a tourist/visitor, my opinion is that you should just shrug your shoulders and put up with it for the short while you're there! You certainly shouldn't impose your ideas on a place - the English have done that all over the place and look where it's gotten us and them! Anyway, as Calmoriah indicated, the cultural and other differences are what makes travel exciting!

Edited May 20, 2013 by sheilauk

[Five Solas]

Can I join you? I would like to talk about Jonna Petry. What would you have to say about Reformed theology that hasn't been regurgitated and vomited by Piper, Bruce, Sproul, Driscoll and Grudem?

I forgot that I was going to open a thread on why I disagree with Calvinism but got swamped by school work. If I have time, I will try and work on it.

Nearly missed this in the flurry, but yes, absolutely Valentinus!

--Erik

[CV75]

I’m just going to put it out there: Should I (or anyone) blame this state of affairs in SLC on the LDS? Should I feel annoyed at Mormons every time I visit my folks who live in Utah? Or should I feel grateful that they’re giving me an opportunity to repent & change my ways while I wait for that warm beer to cool in the fridge?

For a non-LDS visitor to Utah, what’s the proper way to feel about the local culture as reflected by its liquor laws?

--Erik

I'm not sure "blame" is the right word. I would attribute it to the culture, which in the matter of liquor laws, reflects a balance between LDS and non-LDS values.

People have the right to feel annoyed (or grateful) about anything, including liquor laws.

The proper way to feel about the local culture as reflected by its liquor laws is "charitably."

[Five Solas]

Or we are talking about the attitude that one should be able to carry one's own culture on one's back as one travels to avoid any emotional inconvenience.

It is interesting to me that you are suggesting that it may not be legitimate for LDS to impose their values on others through the election of officials that put their values in the laws of the local community by suggesting that it would be better if Utah had the same values as your own state does. How is that not wishing you had the ability to impose your own values (in this case increasing the accessibility of alcohol) on a whole state?

Fair point, calmoriah. The peculiar notion that beer should be stored and sold cold is arguably a cultural value that I would import from Seattle and impose on the folks in SLC, many of whom wish to maintain their own unique culture that incudes warm beer in state owned liquor stores. They antagonize me with warm beer, but I would antagonize them by having it kept fresh and cold. And who am I to get annoyed or say they do it wrong (the physical properties of beer notwithstanding)?

That said, I do know a few non-LDS folks who live in Utah who feel the same way about warm beer as I do. They're pretty powerless now, but someday, if present trends continue, they'll be in the majority and then presumably the laws will change. A happy day for beer aficionados...

;0)

--Erik