D&C 89:17 Says We Can Have Beer?! Or So There Is A Claim By Some.

[ERayR]

One of my daughters is vegan. Her children have never been to McDonalds, they drink almond and coconut milk and eat nothing but pasta I guess. On Thanksgiving my son begged me to bring a turkey to her house! She looked askance at me but put it on the table. She said "This stuff is so not good for you Mom and you are "getting to the age" where you need to think about what you eat. It is a wonder you aren't dying of heart disease and the only exercise you get is from walking the dogs." (I weigh 130 lbs. and am 5'9" tall and never have varied except when I was pregnant with NINE children! Good genes I guess!). And I said...."You are going to feel like a food when you are lying in a nursing home someday dying of NOTHING." She was not amused.

The kids do try to take over your life if you allow it. Good answer, by the way. My contribution to vegetarianism is Avocado sandwiches, cucumber sandwiches and BLT's.

Edited August 8, 2013 by ERayR

[halconero]

BLTs?

I think I could do vegetarianism if it meant more bacon.

[ERayR]

BLTs?

I think I could do vegetarianism if it meant more bacon.

Well that's as close as I can get.

[Traela]

Alcohol turns into aldehydes, which damage DNA. Fine, if your body can repair it (although, why put that extra strain on yourself), but not everyone can. Three of my children were diagnosed with Fanconi Anemia. In a nutshell, their bodies cannot adequately repair damage done to DNA and chromosomes.

This summer we went to a family conference on FA. We learned that I prevented additional damage to my children by not drinking at all during pregnancy, and that one beer every day will do even more damage than periodic binges. Furthermore, a panel of teens and young adults with FA revealed that they feel enormous pressure to smoke and drink, even though they know the increased risk.

Do I believe that the Church is correct to include beer in the strong drink prohibition? You bet I do.

[iamse7en]

Do I believe that the Church is correct to include beer in the strong drink prohibition? You bet I do.

That's fine, I'm sure lots of people do, but that's besides the point. The point is that mild barley drinks are specifically mentioned in the revelation to be okay, our early leaders drank beer in moderation and yet policy took the drastic shift in interpreting th revelation quite differently than the very person who received it, including his immediate successors. There was no revelation in this policy shift, and yet the text remains, quite clearly in its acceptance of mild barley drinks. Whether you or anyone agrees with the policy shift is moot. Perhaps the leaders cite "inspiration" as the reason for the change, but I'd like to see the evidence of that. Leaders today might say the change was inspired, but I'd like to see if HJG and his contemporaries thought it was, for they are merely accepting the traditions of their predecessors, as is common in any organization, particularly religious ones.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Perhaps the leaders cite "inspiration" as the reason for the change, but I'd like to see the evidence of that.

Where exactly is the evidence of the inspiration in the original revelation?

[thesometimesaint]

And this isn't earth shattering but the saints took coffee with them on the trek to Utah, after the WoW came about.

After they heard about Brigham Tea.

[thesometimesaint]

That's fine, I'm sure lots of people do, but that's besides the point. The point is that mild barley drinks are specifically mentioned in the revelation to be okay, our early leaders drank beer in moderation and yet policy took the drastic shift in interpreting th revelation quite differently than the very person who received it, including his immediate successors. There was no revelation in this policy shift, and yet the text remains, quite clearly in its acceptance of mild barley drinks. Whether you or anyone agrees with the policy shift is moot. Perhaps the leaders cite "inspiration" as the reason for the change, but I'd like to see the evidence of that. Leaders today might say the change was inspired, but I'd like to see if HJG and his contemporaries thought it was, for they are merely accepting the traditions of their predecessors, as is common in any organization, particularly religious ones.

Those early Sants also knew about Barley Water. A nonalcoholic drink made from Barley. Commonly used as a tonic for colds and the like. There is little doubt that those early Saints also drank beer. Though they probably didn't down a 48 oncer at a sitting. New converts(after about 1900) were/are expected to obey the WoW as precluding the use of alcohol as beverage in the covenant at baptism.

[iamse7en]

Quit talking about barley water. It's quite clear (and even FAIR admits this) that in context, the text prohibits strong drink but permits mild drinks. The text is not saying "you can drink barley water!" Don't be dishonest; it's quit clear the original interpretation, from our beloved prophets, was that beer was okay, but stronger drinks such as liquor was not. The church now incorrectly says strong drink includes all alcoholic drinks, when that is not what the text infers nor what Joseph Smith intended.

[canard78]

Those early Sants also knew about Barley Water. A nonalcoholic drink made from Barley. Commonly used as a tonic for colds and the like. There is little doubt that those early Saints also drank beer. Though they probably didn't down a 48 oncer at a sitting. New converts(after about 1900) were/are expected to obey the WoW as precluding the use of alcohol as beverage in the covenant at baptism.

This is apologetic nonsense of the highest order. I accept that 0 alcohol is the standard today and support the policy but beer was never a prohibited substance in D&C 89.

And CFR that at baptism we make a covenant to abstain from all alcohol as a beverage.

[Tacenda]

Shock of all shocks here, I'm glad the WoW evolved, slowly albeit, to abstain from beer too. My brother is an alcoholic from only drinking beer. He lost his marriage because of it. And he was absent from his children's lives, they didn't know him sober for many years. When he finally quit, they were able to know their dad again. And coffee, even though they say it's good for you, I think does have some kind of chemical that isn't good, not just the caffeine. I don't know about green tea though. I think our church is ever changing so who knows what it'll be like in twenty years from now. Maybe it'll clamp down on overeating, lol.

[Calm]

but I'd like to see if HJG and his contemporaries thought it was, for they are merely accepting the traditions of their predecessors, as is common in any organization, particularly religious ones.

CFR please. HJG was the one who altered the temple requirement, right? IOW, he changed things so how is that accepting the tradition of his predecessors?

[garza4411]

We're talking about beer, but we're also talking about the WoW; at risk of it sounding too off topic--and I'm willing to be scolded--I wonder what the response would be to a temple recommend interview when asked if the individual followed the commandment, he/she answered "No. I eat meat at minimum during two meals a day" [which doesn't seem 'sparingly']?

I suppose one answer is that it depends on the person interviewing (let's say it's bishop or SP.) But would there be the same emphasis on not eating meat sparingly vs. drinking beer? I know it's speculation but I can't resist asking.

[Calm]

I can easily see sometime in the future eating meat sparingly or something else along those lines being added to the temple recommend. Perhaps as more people become aware of effects, just as occurred with alcohol, even the weakest of Saints will be able to accept more aspects of the WoW as commandments rather than guidelines.

[Gervin]

I don't believe for one minute that beer as we know it today is comparable to "mild barley drinks" of the WoW.... With a 12% alcohol content for most beers (more for some), it doesn't take long to become impaired. Even if one has only one or two beers it doesn't matter.., they are still not the same.

GG

The 12% statement is wildly wrong: http://www.alcoholcontents.com/beer/

[canard78]

The 12% statement is wildly wrong: http://www.alcoholcontents.com/beer/

Good reference. 6% about average, many below 5%. I didn't see any at 12%

[canard78]

We're talking about beer, but we're also talking about the WoW; at risk of it sounding too off topic--and I'm willing to be scolded--I wonder what the response would be to a temple recommend interview when asked if the individual followed the commandment, he/she answered "No. I eat meat at minimum during two meals a day" [which doesn't seem 'sparingly']?

I suppose one answer is that it depends on the person interviewing (let's say it's bishop or SP.) But would there be the same emphasis on not eating meat sparingly vs. drinking beer? I know it's speculation but I can't resist asking.

The ignoring of meat sparingly bugs me. It's clearly in there. There's a fairly recent thread on it a few pages back if you want to read other perspectives on it.

There are clearly people who eat very badly who have a recommend, but one sip of a "mild barley drinks" (a 4-5% vol. pint will hardly touch the sides) and you're vilified.

[Johnnie Cake]

Something I have learned and not the hard way is if there is a rehab centre for something then it's better to stay away!!

So you stay away from Food? Ever heard of a Fat Farm? They're Rehab Centers for Fat people who are addicted to Food. Oh and by the way...alcoholic drinks are not in and of themselves addictive, it is the abuse of alcohol that is the problem...the vast majority of those who enjoy a drink do so without being addicted...but just like food...some people do abuse it...but just as you would not stop eating because part of our society abuses food...you shouldn't NOT drink because some in our society abuse alcohol.

And on another point I have yet to meet a Mormon who lives the word of wisdom as it is written...in other words...they are selective in its application in their lives

Edited August 12, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[ERayR]

The ignoring of meat sparingly bugs me. It's clearly in there. There's a fairly recent thread on it a few pages back if you want to read other perspectives on it.

There are clearly people who eat very badly who have a recommend, but one sip of a "mild barley drinks" (a 4-5% vol. pint will hardly touch the sides) and you're vilified.

Tell me what is sparingly. I would say a 4 to 6 oz serving 4 or 5 times a week or even daily would be sparingly.

[ERayR]

And on another point I have yet to meet a Mormon who lives the word of wisdom as it is written...in other words...they are selective in its application in their lives

And I have yet to meet a non-Mormon or an ex-Mormon who doesn't think they they are an expert on the interpretation of the word of wisdom.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Tell me what is sparingly.

One possible answer comes from the revelation itself:

Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; and these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[ERayR]

One possible answer comes from the revelation itself:

Agreed, that is one possible answer.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ERayR

[canard78]

Tell me what is sparingly. I would say a 4 to 6 oz serving 4 or 5 times a week or even daily would be sparingly.

The fact that you've considered it and reached a level that you feel comfortable with, that you consider to be "sparingly" means at least you're trying to live to your understanding.

My experience is many Mormons haven't even got that far. The best I get if I raise it as a question in Sunday school is: "If I have a half-rack of spare ribs as a side order to my steak and half-chicken at the BBQ joint then I figure it's eaten sparingly."

[canard78]

Agreed, that is one possible answer.

In other words, people who ignore the 'famine/winter' request are happy doing something that is not pleasing to God. Would you extend the "possible answer" that far?

If he had said "it is pleasing to me that strong drink is not consumed" would you consider that to be open season on it too?

[Calm]

I think perhaps we should start out with a definition for sparingly as "a little less than you want to eat" and that way overtime it will get less and less and eventually get to a point where people eat just enough to feel healthy and no more (which varies for individuals as in it appears that my body likes small amounts, but frequently to maintain energy levels and I know others that prefer to eat larger amounts but less often so that their meals are more 'one note' rather than variety as they find that easier to digest than several different types of food at the same time and then there are those who feel best when not eating any meat at all)

Edited August 13, 2013 by calmoriah