D&C 89:17 Says We Can Have Beer?! Or So There Is A Claim By Some.

[ERayR]

In other words, people who ignore the 'famine/winter' request are happy doing something that is not pleasing to God. Would you extend the "possible answer" that far?

If he had said "it is pleasing to me that strong drink is not consumed" would you consider that to be open season on it too?

When this was given refrigeration was unheard of. Meat was preserved with lots of salt so that any summer consumption was really fresh, preserved with lots and lots of salt or rancid. Meat was certainly hunted for and consumed on the trek west.

[canard78]

When this was given refrigeration was unheard of. Meat was preserved with lots of salt so that any summer consumption was really fresh, preserved with lots and lots of salt or rancid. Meat was certainly hunted for and consumed on the trek west.

So just "of its day" - too bad he didn't tell them to boil their water too.

[ERayR]

So just "of its day" - too bad he didn't tell them to boil their water too.

Without all the pollution perhaps it was unnecessary. Even in my days we could drink from springs and streams without worry. Some even piped it straight from spring or stream to house.

[canard78]

Without all the pollution perhaps it was unnecessary. Even in my days we could drink from springs and streams without worry. Some even piped it straight from spring or stream to house.

Fair point. I grew up in a house in the middle of farmland (bought from a farmer, we weren't farmers). Our water was straight off the spring. Still the coldest and best water I've ever tasted.

I thought there was an incident where a load of early members died/got sick from bad water that simple boiling would have sorted. I can't remember where I read it though.

[T-Shirt]

One possible answer comes from the revelation itself:

Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; and these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

This verse, very clearly, states what kind of animals are reserved for famine and excess of hunger. It does not refer to meat in general, just a certain category of meat, Do you see it in the last sentence?

[David T]

Yes, the revelation text Doctrine and Covenants 89 described as "a Word of Wisdom" does allow for the consumption of beer.

No, the modern prophetic expansion of the principles in the Word of Wisdom text into the Church's Official Law of Health that is currently binding on members of the Church which is also commonly generically referred to as "The Word of Wisdom" for simplicity does not allow for the consumption of beer.

See this newsroom article, differentiating between the 'revelation spelling out health practices' and 'the Church's health guidelines':

Finally, another small correction: Despite what was reported, the Church revelation spelling out health practices (Doctrine and Covenants 89) does not mention the use of caffeine. The Church’s health guidelines prohibit alcoholic drinks, smoking or chewing of tobacco, and “hot drinks” — taught by Church leaders to refer specifically to tea and coffee.

[Closet Doubter]

Some of them actually drank the coffee but some used it for trade goods.

CFR on this. I asked about the coffee being brought with them when I was in seminary and was told it was for trading with the indians. It still makes me mad that I continued attending, getting up at 05:30 to get there on time, and the teacher wouldn't even be honest with his answers.

[Calm]

Fair point. I grew up in a house in the middle of farmland (bought from a farmer, we weren't farmers). Our water was straight off the spring. Still the coldest and best water I've ever tasted.

I thought there was an incident where a load of early members died/got sick from bad water that simple boiling would have sorted. I can't remember where I read it though.

Probably the cholera outbreak?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Healings_and_miracles

[Calm]

This verse, very clearly, states what kind of animals are reserved for famine and excess of hunger. It does not refer to meat in general, just a certain category of meat, Do you see it in the last sentence?

So we can eat all the fish we want?

[Calm]

the teacher wouldn't even be honest with his answers.

There is a difference between lying and giving information one believes is true. Most likely he was being honest and telling the truth to the best of his ability. If he wasn't a historian that had spent hours of study of early church life, there were probably a lot of details he wasn't clear on, but thought he was.

Haven't you given out false information confidently as the 'truth' only to find out later you were wrong? If so, why can you not allow others to make the same sort of errors in their lives, why assume deceit?

Edited August 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

This verse, very clearly, states what kind of animals are reserved for famine and excess of hunger. It does not refer to meat in general, just a certain category of meat, Do you see it in the last sentence?

I do. It includes:

- Beasts of the field

- Fowls of the heavens

- Wild animals

You've only got fish left. And pets; pets aren't in the list.

[Calm]

I do. It includes:

- Beasts of the field

- Fowls of the heavens

- Wild animals

You've only got fish left. And pets; pets aren't in the list.

What about chickens kept in the back yard...not exactly of the heavens or the field and definitely not wild.

[canard78]

What about chickens kept in the back yard...not exactly of the heavens or the field and definitely not wild.

Another one to squeeze into the list. Fido may yet be saved from the stew.

I guess KFC is also ok then. Those chickens certainly never see a field nor the sky. Though I can't imagine God is too happy with the way battery farmed chickens are kept.

[ERayR]

CFR on this. I asked about the coffee being brought with them when I was in seminary and was told it was for trading with the indians. It still makes me mad that I continued attending, getting up at 05:30 to get there on time, and the teacher wouldn't even be honest with his answers.

I think I see your problem. You seem to assume the worst of people. Just a thought.

[ERayR]

I don't think this would qualify as sparingly:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/13/have-you-seen-the-12-inch-9000-calorie-38-burger/

[Hamba Tuhan]

Fido may yet be saved from the stew.

Which is a shame since Fido stew is delicious ... cooked with chillies, lime leaves, lemongrass, galangale, etc. and served over hot rice.

[pmccombs1]

So we can eat all the fish we want?

I'd drink to that!

[T-Shirt]

So we can eat all the fish we want?

Well, Joseph Smith did instruct some participants of Zion’s Camp that “fish was much healthier for us to eat than meat, and the use of fish in warm weather was not prohibited in the Word of Wisdom.”

That being said, personally , I think the prohibition of meat except in times of famine or excess of hunger, refers to wild animals, not domesticated animals.

[canard78]

Well, Joseph Smith did instruct some participants of Zion’s Camp that “fish was much healthier for us to eat than meat, and the use of fish in warm weather was not prohibited in the Word of Wisdom.”

That being said, personally , I think the prohibition of meat except in times of famine or excess of hunger, refers to wild animals, not domesticated animals.

Even though the scriptures specify "beasts of the field"?

[thesometimesaint]

Quit talking about barley water. It's quite clear (and even FAIR admits this) that in context, the text prohibits strong drink but permits mild drinks. The text is not saying "you can drink barley water!" Don't be dishonest; it's quit clear the original interpretation, from our beloved prophets, was that beer was okay, but stronger drinks such as liquor was not. The church now incorrectly says strong drink includes all alcoholic drinks, when that is not what the text infers nor what Joseph Smith intended.

Barley Water is as ancient as beer. It is mild in that it didn't and doesn't contain any alcohol. So the Church is being dishonest when it says no alcoholic beverages? Please tell me when did the Church make you the Prophet and President of the Church?

[thesometimesaint]

Even though the scriptures specify "beasts of the field"?

Given the lack of refrigeration eating any animal protein stored more than a few days could be a very stomach turning event.

[canard78]

Barley Water is as ancient as beer. It is mild in that it didn't and doesn't contain any alcohol. So the Church is being dishonest when it says no alcoholic beverages? Please tell me when did the Church make you the Prophet and President of the Church?

This is becoming circular. It was a sanction for drinking beer back then. Now we can't drink it. Times change (but section 89 didn't).

1828 dictionary definition for "mild:"

Not acrid, pungent, corrosive or drastic; operating gently; not acrimonious; demulcent; mollifying; lenitive; assuasive; as a mild liquor; a mild cataplasm; a mild cathartic or emetic.

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/mild

[canard78]

Given the lack of refrigeration eating any animal protein stored more than a few days could be a very stomach turning event.

Meat preservation has been round for ages.

Meat and its Preservation in the 19th Century

The preservation of meat turned out to be a relatively simple technique. The meat was salt cured, which meant preserving it with a mixture of salt and saltpetre. Flavorings could be added, such as honey, sugar, pepper, and juniper berries. The salt in the meat drew out moisture, reducing the weight of the meat by as much as 18%-25%, and preventing the meat from decomposing. The salted meat was hung to dry cure from a few months to a year. This process deepened the color of the meat and produced an intense flavor. Dried and cured, the meat was cut into thin slices and could be served at any time.

http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/food-in-merrye-olde-england/

[thesometimesaint]

This is becoming circular. It was a sanction for drinking beer back then. Now we can't drink it. Times change (but section 89 didn't).

1828 dictionary definition for "mild:"

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/mild

I've already said that I don't have a problem with the early Saints drinking beer. All I am saying they probably also drank Barley Water.

[Calm]

In regards to beasts of the field, I don't see how one can get away from them being domesticated:

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/field