D&C 89:17 Says We Can Have Beer?! Or So There Is A Claim By Some.

[canard78]

Don't forget the pickle that the existence then and now of barley water puts your allegation into.

From LDS.org:

"Nevertheless, it required time to wind down practices that were so deeply ingrained in family tradition and culture, especially when fermented beverages of all kinds were frequently used for medicinal purposes. The term “strong drink” certainly included distilled spirits like whiskey, which hereafter the Latter-day Saints generally shunned. They took a more moderate approach to milder alcoholic beverages like beer and “pure wine of the grape of the vine of your own make” (see D&C 89:6). For the next two generations, Latter-day Saint leaders taught the Word of Wisdom as a command from God, but they tolerated a variety of viewpoints on how strictly the commandment should be observed. This incubation period gave the Saints time to develop their own tradition of abstinence from habit-forming substances. By the early twentieth century, when scientific medicines were more widely available and temple attendance had become a more regular feature of Latter-day Saint worship, the Church was ready to accept a more exacting standard of observance that would eliminate problems like alcoholism from among the obedient. In 1921, the Lord inspired Church president Heber J. Grant to call on all Saints to live the Word of Wisdom to the letter by completely abstaining from all alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco. Today Church members are expected to live this higher standard."

https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng

I've absolutely no problem with a 0 alcohol approach today. As I and others have pointed out, the attitude of "let's get wasted" is more prevalent today than then. It's very clear that "mild barley drinks" meant beer then. Since then it's also been prohibited, though not canonised. I don't need it to be canonised to be confident it's a 'true' principle today.

It's also the case that "drunkenness" has always been condemned in the scriptures. Until D&C 89 there was no scriptural case against a substance only a censure against being drunk. People could drink in moderation within a divine mandate:

"walk … not in rioting and drunkenness" Rom. 13:13

"drunkenness … do such things shall not inherit the kingdom" Gal. 5:21

Later (1900s) there was a complete ban on any alcohol. I'm grateful for it. It gives me a clear line. But let's not kid ourselves that it applied to saints in the 1800s. It didn't. But then they had principles that applied to them and that don't apply to us. Polygamy and (briefly) consecration.

[canard78]

Don't forget the pickle that the existence then and now of barley water puts your allegation into.

And:

The text of the Word of Wisdom forbids "strong drink" (D&C 89:5, 7), which was initially interpreted as distilled beverages (hard liquor). Beer, unfermented or lightly fermented wine, and cider were considered "mild drinks" (D&C 89:17) and therefore acceptable (note that verse 17 specifically permits "barley...for mild drinks"). The complete prohibition of alcoholic drinks of any kind only became part of the Word of Wisdom following the temperance movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries; Presidents Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant supported the movement and Grant made complete abstention from alcohol in any form a requirement for a temple recommend in the early 1920s.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/History_and_implementation

[USU78]

Truth is, we don't know for sure what "mild [barley] drinks" meant and means. It might have included beer/ale along with barley water [a decidedly Victorian beverage], but we cannot be certain, notwithstanding what others may have written.

I know a fair bit about my own family's practices . . . wine was okay occasionally even to the WWI generation (my grandfathers'): my doughboy paternal grandfather and his 3 doughboy brothers got together for a New Year's toast into at least the '60s.

Teetotaling as policy probably began no earlier than the '30s or '40s. I have a theory on why that would be.

[canard78]

Truth is, we don't know for sure what "mild [barley] drinks" meant and means. It might have included beer/ale along with barley water [a decidedly Victorian beverage], but we cannot be certain, notwithstanding what others may have written.

I know a fair bit about my own family's practices . . . wine was okay occasionally even to the WWI generation (my grandfathers'): my doughboy paternal grandfather and his 3 doughboy brothers got together for a New Year's toast into at least the '60s.

Teetotaling as policy probably began no earlier than the '30s or '40s. I have a theory on why that would be.

If 'mild barley drinks' meant beer back then, which I think the evidence strongly supports, then it also means it now. But then I don't consider the canon to be the first and last word on every behavior and principle I support.

There are dozens of 'dos' and 'don'ts' in the standards works that have not been rescinded by removing them from the canon but that we still do/don't do.

Old Testament is replete with them. New Testament (especially some of Paul's writings) has a fair amount.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I know we can "Wine of our own make" for the Sacrament.

[canard78]

I know we can "Wine of our own make" for the Sacrament.

The w(h)ine of my kids own make is usually not approved of during sacrament. They invented a cry-room for that.

[EllenMaksoud]

Dietary rules change over time (see quotations below from the OT).

I know many LDS who eat pork. I am not fond of it so I don't cook it but I have eaten it when it was served by a friend in her home without protesting. Nor have I ever tried camel or rock badger or eaten mice. I haven't touched pig carcasses either. But we also know NOW what JS and most people of his time didn't know then. That most of the things prohibited by JS in the WOW are now known to be bad for your health. Something to think about....

Leviticus 11:7-8 "And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you."

Isaiah 66:17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abominations, and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord."

Leviticus 11:1-47 "And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you."

I did not eat pork for about 7 years, when I was Muslim. Even now, in spite of being Mormon, I sometimes feel um "Punishable", though that has diminished over time. Now that the reaction is gone, I do not make it a habit of eating it, and will perhaps make that a hard stop.

[Erin15]

What say ye?

Well, we have a clear commandment interpreted and upheld by a living prophet on one hand, and a blog post by some random person on the other.

Do you have any compelling reason why we should listen to the random internet person?

[canard78]

Well, we have a clear commandment interpreted and upheld by a living prophet on one hand, and a blog post by some random person on the other.

Do you have any compelling reason why we should listen to the random internet person?

It's far more fun that way.

Besides... there's sooooo much ambiguity in this statement I just recently read from President Hinckley :

Avoid alcohol as you would a loathsome disease. Beer will do to you what hard liquor will do. Each contains alcohol in varying amounts.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1999/10/why-we-do-some-of-the-things-we-do?lang=eng

No-one can be left in any doubt what the church's position on beer is today. It's fairly clear that "mild beers" were considered fine 180 years ago. Joseph drank beer, it's in his journal.

June 1, 1844 - "Drank a glass of beer at Mooessers."

The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, pg. 486

But it's not 1844 any more. It's 2013. Joseph was also a polygamist... we're not clamouring for that to be switched back are we?

[canard78]

Well, we have a clear commandment interpreted and upheld by a living prophet on one hand, and a blog post by some random person on the other.

Do you have any compelling reason why we should listen to the random internet person?

Just found this too. We can have wine at weddings if we base our behavior on the 1830s:

January 14, 1836, Joseph's diary says he performed a wedding ceremony...

...after which I pronounced such blessings upon their heads as the Lord put into my heart even even the blessings of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and dismissed by singing and prayer we then took some refreshment and our hearts were made glad with the fruit of the vine, this is according to pattern, set by our Saviour himself,* and we feel disposed to patronize all the institutions of heaven

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/journal-1835-1836?dm=image-and-text&zm=zoom-inner&tm=expanded&p=115&s=undefined&sm=none

*JSP writers speculate that this is a reference to John 2:1–11, which describes the wedding at Cana where they drank wine. I guess the attitude back then was "If it was good enough for Him, it's good enough for us!"

[Tacenda]

It's far more fun that way.

Besides... there's sooooo much ambiguity in this statement I just recently read from President Hinckley :

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1999/10/why-we-do-some-of-the-things-we-do?lang=eng

No-one can be left in any doubt what the church's position on beer is today. It's fairly clear that "mild beers" were considered fine 180 years ago. Joseph drank beer, it's in his journal.

The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, pg. 486

But it's not 1844 any more. It's 2013. Joseph was also a polygamist... we're not clamouring for that to be switched back are we?

And this isn't earth shattering but the saints took coffee with them on the trek to Utah, after the WoW came about.

[ERayR]

And this isn't earth shattering but the saints took coffee with them on the trek to Utah, after the WoW came about.

Some of them actually drank the coffee but some used it for trade goods.

[Tacenda]

Some of them actually drank the coffee but some used it for trade goods.

I believe it took a long while for them to completely wean off coffee, and tea also.

[Calm]

Joseph drank beer, it's in his journal.

Root beer or ginger beer obviously, just like it's grape juice really in the bible, not wine.

[Calm]

but some used it for trade goods.

Didn't BY recommend it for that purpose even?

[Calm]

we feel disposed to patronize all the institutions of heaven

Great quote.

[canard78]

Root beer or ginger beer obviously, just like it's grape juice really in the bible, not wine.

Of course! Nod, nod, wink, wink

[canard78]

Great quote.

Isn't it? I'll be sure to remember it for next time I'm in the Bishops office

[canard78]

Great quote.

It's even better if you imagine him dictating right after the festivities:

"we feel dishposed, hic, to patronishe all the inshtitutionsh, hic, of heaven... zzz... wut?"

[Calm]

It's even better if you imagine him dictating right after the festivities:

"we feel dishposed, hic, to patronishe all the inshtitutionsh, hic, of heaven... zzz... wut?"

Now you are just being naughty.

[canard78]

Now you are just being naughty.

I know... but you are imagining it aren't you

It sounds like something Winston Churchill might have slurred.

[captain-jack]

Sorry, the last few days have been taking my attention as a busy weekend approaches.

I'd say one reason that we should avoid beer and alcohol is it's addictive, plus the smell is putrid- If the blog author thinks otherwise he should visit AA

I agree, I think the smell is disgusting.

I say he should get to know a few of the beer alcoholics that I know. But, if he/she wants to drink beer then any rationalization is as good as another. Why don't they just drink non-alcoholic?

Peole who want or not want something without the guilt will find a way to rationalize it, no matter the sin. Skimming through other titles on this blog makes me feel like there is a general feeling that the church is true but they don't want to believe that you really have to follow all the rules.

Here we go, skirting the edge of sin again. I was saved from such hell, that I would not dare.

I'll be very clear concerning myself: alcohol is disgusting and I will never consume any of it. I believe the spirit of the Word of Wisdom is that we shouldn't drink any alcohol at all. I'm even coming around to the idea that soda should be avoided to, but that is for me personally because I can struggle with it. That story is for another thread though.

This is off-topic, so forgive me, Cap'n. (Welcome back, by the way! Hope Mrs. Sparrow and the Little Sparrow(s) are well! )

Thanks, they are all doing well.

Why is the rum gone?

I always ask this, but as soon as I stand up I remember why.

[EllenMaksoud]

Both parents drank, got drunk and beat me often, like 4-5 nights a week. I never once satisfied them, not once. You do not have to go far to see news that aspartame (a content of diet drinks) is not good for one. I don't go so far as being a vegetarian or vegan, but when 110 year old vegetarians start showing up, I will give it some thought, and some one will have to convince me that living more than 80 or so years will be fun, or someone needs me to do it.

[kassie]

Both parents drank, got drunk and beat me often, like 4-5 nights a week. I never once satisfied them, not once. You do not have to go far to see news that aspartame (a content of diet drinks) is not good for one. I don't go so far as being a vegetarian or vegan, but when 110 year old vegetarians start showing up, I will give it some thought, and some one will have to convince me that living more than 80 or so years will be fun, or someone needs me to do it.

One of my daughters is vegan. Her children have never been to McDonalds, they drink almond and coconut milk and eat nothing but pasta I guess. On Thanksgiving my son begged me to bring a turkey to her house! She looked askance at me but put it on the table. She said "This stuff is so not good for you Mom and you are "getting to the age" where you need to think about what you eat. It is a wonder you aren't dying of heart disease and the only exercise you get is from walking the dogs." (I weigh 130 lbs. and am 5'9" tall and never have varied except when I was pregnant with NINE children! Good genes I guess!). And I said...."You are going to feel like a food when you are lying in a nursing home someday dying of NOTHING." She was not amused.

[EllenMaksoud]

One of my daughters is vegan. Her children have never been to McDonalds, they drink almond and coconut milk and eat nothing but pasta I guess. On Thanksgiving my son begged me to bring a turkey to her house! She looked askance at me but put it on the table. She said "This stuff is so not good for you Mom and you are "getting to the age" where you need to think about what you eat. It is a wonder you aren't dying of heart disease and the only exercise you get is from walking the dogs." (I weigh 130 lbs. and am 5'9" tall and never have varied except when I was pregnant with NINE children! Good genes I guess!). And I said...."You are going to feel like a food when you are lying in a nursing home someday dying of NOTHING." She was not amused.

Yes, well the young know it all don't they. By the time they realize they don't we'll be gone.