Evolving Views Since Joining Mormon Dialogue

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Still believe in God but have much less trust in God than I used to. Too many broken promises.

The Lectures on Faith makes it painstakingly clear that a god who can’t be trusted and breaks promises is no God — at best no more than an object of false, idolatrous worship.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The Lectures on Faith makes it painstakingly clear that a god who can’t be trusted and breaks promises is no God — at best no more than an object of false, idolatrous worship.

Does the church still learn or post about the Lectures of Faith. I thought that was a discontinued reference.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The Lectures on Faith makes it painstakingly clear that a god who can’t be trusted and breaks promises is no God — at best no more than an object of false, idolatrous worship.

I know. That is what I am afraid of.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The Lectures on Faith makes it painstakingly clear that a god who can’t be trusted and breaks promises is no God — at best no more than an object of false, idolatrous worship.

What many see as broken promises by God are really them not getting things the way they wanted them done.

 God doesn't break promises, people do.

[LoudmouthMormon]

So interesting to hear others' ~20 year recollections, and it's always interesting to hear stories about how folks change over time.  I remember Pacumeni, ZLMB, Kerry Shirts, Consiglieri, of course DCP, and so many more.   I dusted off my old 215 page word doc full of apologetics, and just spent 10 minutes breezing through it.  Anything that made an impact on me, I'd stick it in the doc.  Anyone else remember links that looked like this?  http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessageRange?topicID=128.topic&start=181&stop=200

Ah, memories.   Here - have a random entry in my word doc from our own @Bernard Gui, probably at least 15 years old.  This story fed my desire to interact with such folks:

Quote

A prominent Lutheran church advertised an evening for people to learn about Mormons. I went with our ward mission leader. The very large church was full. In the audience was a member of the Stake Presidency who was a PhD in psychology and the highly respected headmaster of a local private college-prep high school. The Professional Anti-Mormon arrived in his Cadillac and proceeded to give the most horrific description of my religion I have ever heard. A collection was taken for his "ministry." I don't remember his name, but he had really nice cowboy boots and a big silver belt buckle. At the end of his presentation, he opened the floor for questions. The SP stood and identified himself, but was immediately told to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP THIS IS NOT YOUR CHURCH by the host. I write it in caps because that was how it was said. The hatred in the audience was so palpable that you could cut it with a knife. The next logical step to the presentation could have been, "Now let's get some rope and find some Mormons." I understood mob violence in Illinois. My friend and I left fearful for our safety if we had identified ourselves as Mormons. It took several weeks to shake the feelings engendered from that meeting.

 A local EV church advertised "The Godmakers." My son and his girlfriend (a non-Mormon) went because she wanted to learn about Mormons. They came away sick to their stomachs from what was said about the Mormons not only in the movie but by the people who presented it. She later joined the church partially as a result of her experience with "Christians" concerned about Mormons. If you think she was some sort of airhead, she just finished her law degree at Northwestern.

And here - have the world's largest "Why did the LDS Chicken cross the road" list - I think this came from ZLMB, in a thread that lasted months:

Quote

Why Did the Chicken Cross the Road? (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints version)

Laman: To usurp the authority of his older brother chickens and to take possession of their coop. 

Brigham Young: Because this is the right place to cross the road. 

Brigham Young: Crossing the road is no test for chickens today. All fowl can claim to cross the road. That doesn't make them chickens.

Orson Pratt: Because she is the Whore of Babylon, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth! She is crossing the road called Apostacy!

Joseph Smith: This new holy prophet has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of crossing the road. This jaywalkism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this.

Joseph Smith's mother: My son could probably have told you  .. if he had been well read. I tell you that boy just did not like to read.

Joseph Smith: Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the road shall be crossed by the gathering of the hens, beginning in this place, even the place of the coops, which coops shall be reared in this generation.

Martin Harris: I have never denied seeing the chicken cross the road. 

Gordon B. Hinckley: I don t know that we teach that the chicken did cross the road, it is more of a couplet than anything, as the road was the chicken did cross it.

GBH - isn't it wonderful, isn't it marvelous - I raised that chicken in my own back yard.

Paul H. Dunn: I remember one time when a chicken wandered into my foxhole on Okinawa... 

Thomas S. Monson: "The chicken crossing the road reminds me of a story. When I was serving as a branch president a charming little town in Germany, I was met one day by a young rooster in tattered clothes begging for eggs. My heart went out to this rooster, as I noticed how shabby his feathers seemed compared to the others, and how he hung his head in embarassment as the attractive chickens passed on by without so much as a friendly "hello."

Lilburn W Boggs: I don't care which side of the road the chicken's on, you have permission to kill it. 

Missonary: (quoting scripture) "Go Ye unto all sides of the road & preach the Gospel to every living thing" 

Elder's Quorum President: It was the 31st and he had to get his Home Teaching done. 

Relief Society President: That's where the chickens needing compassionate service were. 

Laurel: Because she saw a bunch of cute roosters on the other side of the road. 

Deacon: That's where the refreshments were. 

Nursery Leader: To get a drink of water and go to the bathroom. But the chicks were only permitted to cross reverently, in a single file and under the supervision of two or more hens or roosters. 

Scout Master: Now group up close to me boys and I'll show you where the reported road crossing took place. See if you can find the tracks and tell me what kind of animal made this crossing. If you're not sure about the tracks then look for further evidence such as droppings or fur or feathers. Make a note that responsible animal husbandry would not have allowed for the opportunity this animal seized to cross the road and if we are going to keep animals...we MUST do it responsibly. Write a two page essay on ways to prevent future road crossings and see Bro. So-and-so to sign off on your merit badges.

Mark Hoffman: Would you like to buy the chicken's original diary documenting his crossing of the road? 

Lamoni's servants: We don't know why it crossed the road; all we know is its wings had been cut off. 

Temple Square Guide: The acoustics are so good you can hear the chicken cross the road from any seat in the Tabernacle. 

President Merrill J Bateman: I'm not so much concerned that the chicken crossed the road but that its feathers were not knee-length. 

Gerald Lund: Not only did this chicken cross the road, but his whole family crossed the road as well. The grand, panoramic story of this chicken's family will be told in mysoon-to-be-released 36 volume set "The Cluck and the Glory." 

Lorenzo Snow: As the egg is, the chicken once was; as the chicken is, the egg may become. 

Neil A. Maxwell: "Many of us chickens are afraid to cross on our own steam, instead relying on the mercies of others who would throw us in the right direction. Such chickens set their hearts on tossings, rather than crossings.

Joseph Fielding Smith in "Answers to Chicken Questions"
Question: Why did the chicken cross the road?
Answer:The scriptures are very clear on this question. The word "chicken" is mentioned in the scriptures, let me see.......doh! Ok, see 2 Nephi, a careful reading will give you the answer.

Daniel C. Peterson: To get to the phone and call 1-800-FARMS15 and order my book which will not be named so I can be humble and meek and not upset a certain person around here who will remain nameless.

Sheri Dew: Just as the eternal destiny of the chicken can not be achieved without the road to cross, neither can the road be totally fulfilled without a chicken to cross it.

Brant Gardner: The word chicken can be reduced down to its elementary properties we can recognize in the numerical form 66.  Highway 66  is a well-known 21st century catch phrase implying freedom of movement and new beginnings. Thus the parallel between the actual chicken and the actual road is obvious and truly amazing.

John Gee: Ashment not only is refuted by the evidence that the chicken is Egyptian, but he stands alone in proclaiming that it never intended to cross the road.

Anti-Mormon: Obviously the chicken was deceived by the LDS leaders into believing that the truth would be found on the other side of the road and if it could only make it there it had a chance of becoming God. Not being able to think for itself and discouraged from reading road maps or other non-LDS literature it blindly rushed to the other side of the road where it has miserably been trying to earn it's way back into heaven ever since.

Antimormon: Why do Mormons not study chickens so that they can intelligently discuss the question as to why the chicken crossed the road? 

Antichicken: There have been roughly 4000 changes from the original story of the chicken crossing the road.

Former LDS Chicken : I once was lured into crossing the road but I found Jesus, Praise the Lord, and He taught me that it didn't matter which side of the road I was on as long as it was the OPPOSITE side of the LDS. Because of my refusal to stay on the same side of the road as my LDS friends and family I feel that they have begun to avoid me and so my life is miserable all because of them. It was so miserable that I joined a club of OTHER former LDS chickens and we all stay on the opposite side of the road as the LDS and complain about the LDS on the other side. It helps us to control the feelings of being outcasts from the LDS community. 

Athiest- What chicken? What road?

Trinity believers- The chicken, the road and the sky are all the same. 

NOAH: To find her rooster to get in line to board the arc. 

MRS. NOAH: A dove, stupid, he said a dove! 

ABRAHAM: And the Lord appeared to me and said, Abraham, Abraham, take the chicken, thy only chicken, that thou lovest, and take it across the road... 

LOT: I told her not to look back. 

MOSES: Know ye that it is unclean to eat the chicken that has crossed the road part-way and becometh unclean.

DAVID: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no road! 

GOLIATH: A slingshot and a what?????? 

SOLOMON: To make that determination, I propose cutting the chicken in half. 

Apostle Paul's version of the question: Else what shall they do which cross the road, if the road cannot be crossed at all? why are they then crossing the road?

Actually, it is a little-known fact that the whole Book of Mormon is structured around the ancient Hebrew poetic form known as "Chickasmus." When we understand this, we gain bold new insights:

Genesis: because he wanted to know what was on the other side.
GENESIS 5: And rooster knew his wife. And rooster did begat chicken. And chicken did cross the road. 
Exodus: to escape from Egypt.
Leviticus: to sacrifice an offering to the Lord.
Numbers: to reach the next camp.
Deuteronomy: because he had covenanted to do so.
Joshua: to enter the promised land.
Judges: because it was right in his own eyes (there was no king in Israel).
Ruth: to be with the one she loved.
1 Samuel: because he was anointed to do so.
2 Samuel: to have a better view of Bathsheba.
1 Kings: to obtain cedars for building the temple.
2 Kings: because he was taken there in a chariot of fire.
1 Chronicles: to steady the ark.
2 Chronicles: he was being carried away captive.
Ezra: to get back to Jerusalem.
Nehemiah: to have his genealogy recorded before he entered the city. 
Esther: to attend a banquet (it was a matter of life and death)
Job: to comfort his friend.
Psalms: because that is where the paths of the righteous lead.
Proverbs: to learn wisdom.
Ecclesiastes: there was no reason.
ECCLESIASTES 1: I have seen all the chickens under the sun and all are vanity. 
ECCLESIASTES 3: A time to cross, a time to stand still 
Song of Solomon: to [censored by board moderator]
Isaiah: to gather to the Lord s ensign.
ISAIAH: I came upon a valley of dry chicken bones... 
Jeremiah: to escape destruction.
Lamentations: Why? Why? Oh why did you cross?
Ezekiel: it was a sign to the children of Israel.
Daniel: to battle with the king of the south.
Hosea: because the Lord commanded it (though some people say this was just an allegory)
Joel: because the day of the Lord was at hand.
Amos: to transgress at Bethel and Gilgal.
Obadiah: to bring word from the Lord to the heathen.
Jonah: to hide.
Micah: because he was like a young lion and could do whatever he wanted.
Nahum: to escape from Nineveh
Habakkuk (have-a-cluck?): to walk upon the high places.
Zephaniah: to see if anyone was left in the city.
Haggai: because the Lord stirred him up.
Zechariah: to enter Jerusalem (riding upon an ***).
Malachi: to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord.
MATTHEW 6: The farmer misunderstood. I said, "Turn the other cheek, not turn the other chick." 
Matthew: to be baptized of John.
Mark: to join the great multitude following Jesus. 
Luke: to tell people of the empty tomb.
John: because he was sent.
JOHN 7: He among you who has not crossed roads, let him cast the first egg!
Peter: I've told you twice already, I don't know that chicken! 
Acts: to preach the gospel.
Romans: because no road could separate him from the love of God.
1 Corinthians: because God had called him to do so.
2 Corinthians: he did not know (he walked by faith, not sight).
Galatians: to remove himself from the gospel and return to his old church.
Ephesians: because he was tossed there by the winds of doctrine.
Philippians: to reach the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.
Colossians: because that was the walk he had received from Christ Jesus.
1 Thessalonians: because the Lord was on the other side, and the chicken found himself caught up.
2 Thessalonians: because the love of God was there (and he was directed to it)
1 Timothy: because he heard some vain jangling
2 Timothy: he was fleeing youthful lusts
Titus: to avoid foolish questions [such as those involving chickens? - ed]
Philemon: because his name was Onesimus and his father sent him.
Hebrews: to come to God (he believed he would receive a reward).
James: to visit the fatherless and widows.
1 Peter: because he was called toward the light. 
2 Peter: to be delivered from temptations.
1 John: because he was antichrist, and went out from the people of God.
2 John: to walk after the commandments.
3 John: to walk in the truth.
Jude: to leave his first estate.
Revelation: to hide in the dens and rocks of the mountains.

1 Nephi: because he was led by the spirit, not knowing beforehand what he should do. 
1 Nephi: The journey from the old world to the new. The sea of course symbolises the road.
1 Nephi: It is better for a chicken to cross the road than a nation dwindle in unbelief.
2 Nephi: to fulfil all righteousness. 
2 Nephi: A highly chickastic book, where the first half represents one side of the road, and the second half represents the other side.
Jacob: to plant his corn in a distant part of the vineyard. 
Jacob: contains the famous allegory of scratching at tree roots.
Enos: to hunt beasts in the forest. 
Enos: "and my soul hungered" - the simile is obviously with (New World) corn.
Jarom: because his stiffnecked people drove him away.
Jarom: a lamentation for the stiffneckedness of the people (a comparison to chicken necks of course)
Omni: to get to Zarahemla.
Omni: why did Mosiah cross the road? To get to Zarahemla.
Words of Mormon: for a wise purpose, according to the whisperings of the spirit. 
Words of Mormon: Mormon "comes across" the small plates. More crossing imagery.
Mosiah: to reach the land of Nephi again.
Mosiah: the whole book is one series of crossings (between Nephi and Zarahemla)
Alma: to join the Lamanites and incite them to war.
Alma: "and thus we see" what happens when Nephite apostates (Amlici, Zerahemna, etc.) cross over to the other side.
Helaman: to see Nephi praying on his tower by the road.
3 Nephi: to avoid being gathered by the mother hen. 
4 Nephi: to separate into two groups of chicken-ites.
4 Nephi: the story of how the Lamanites and Nephites crossed over and met in the middle, but later hey crossed back to their respective sides.
Mormon: because he could no longer lead his people.
Mormon: Mormon refuses to lead his people: was he chicken? But he later crossed back again.
Ether: to arrive at a choice land prepared by the Lord. 
Ether: Ether mentions honeybees, but does not need to mention chickens - OBVIOUSLY they crossed the ocean as well.
Moroni: to meet Moroni at the bar. 
Moroni: Moroni 10:4 - the great challenge. Will YOU cross over to God's side? 

The Doctrine and Covenants: "The duty of a chicken is to cross the road when there is no other poultry present." 
Doctrine and Covenants 1: to prepare for the Second Coming.
D&C 4 (no, I am NOT doing all 138 sections!): because the field across the road was full of corn ready to harvest.
D&C 13: to be ordained to the Aaronic priesthood.
D&C 18: to declare repentance unto the world.
D&C 20: to see the organization of the church.
D&C 21: to listen o the prophet.
D&C 25: to print a hymnbook.
D&C 29: to gather with the elect.
D&C 37: to reach Ohio.
D&C 42: because it was the law of the church.
D&C 45: to stand in a holy place.
D&C 46: because that was his gift.
D&C 58: because he did not need to be told.
D&C 59: to offer up his sacraments.
D&C 72: to give an account of his stewardship.
D&C 76: to dwell in the presence of God.
D&C 77: we are to understand that he was to get to the other side.
D&C 84: to receive God s servants.
D&C 88: to warn the people.
D&C 89: to avoid the destroying angel.
D&C 93: because he was free to do so.
D&C 104: to pay his debts.
D&C 107: to be with his quorum.
D&C 109: to prepare.
D&C 110: to see a vision.
D&C 116: to visit Adam-Ondi-Ahman.
D&C 119: to visit the Bishop s storehouse.
D&C 121: because that was his nature and disposition.
D&C 122: the son of man has crossed further than the chicken. Is the chicken greater than he?
D&C 123: to bring to light the hidden things.
D&C 124: to build the Nauvoo house.
D&C 128: because it was a great cause. Shall we not cross? Courage, brethren: and on, on to victory!
(D&C 132): For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covey; and if ye abide not that covey, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covey and be permitted to enter into my glory. Go ye, therefore, and cross the road; enter ye into my law and ye shall reach the other side.D&C 133: to get out from Babylon.
D&C 135: to seal his testimony with his blood (watch out for that truck on the road!)
D&C 136: to travel west.
D&C 138: because he was foreordained to do so.
Official Declarations: because ti was revealed from God that this must be so.
Book of Moses: to go up the mountain.
Abraham: to escape from idolatry.
Joseph Smith   Matthew: to gather with the elect.
Joseph Smith   History: to find out which church to join.
Articles of Faith: to find something virtuous, lovely, or of good report, or praiseworthy   the chicken was seeking after these things.

 

Anyway.  In another thread, @Teancum and I had a relevant exchange: 

Quote

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work.

Quote

In my experience, this is a universal phenomenon to humans, never restricted to religion.  We all are born sponges, absorbing notions and opinions and beliefs as if they were fact.  We get it from our parents and peers, friends and church, co-workers and random people we encounter in life.  And new to the human race for the 21st century, the kiddos get it from social media.  As we grow and our circles of awareness expand, stuff comes out of nowhere and crashes into our never-before considered beliefs-held-as-truth.  Some of us dig in and defend, pulling on the full breadth and depth of logical fallacies and confirmation bias and whatnot.  Some of us stick our fingers in our ears and refuse to let new things in.  Some of us embrace learning new things, seeking out challenges to our preconceived notions.  Most change over time, some remain stuck across their lives.  

I'm a fan of speculation, trying out ideas to see how they "taste", pushing things to logical extremes to determine their worthiness.  

My ultimate point, was that every day I do this, makes me more mormon than the day before.  And yet, I'll occasionally see people doing the same thing, heading in exactly the opposite direction.  I've learned to be careful judging folks by the conclusions they claim to have reached that are different than mine.  Usually, the only righteous judgment I can give is "they're being honest".  

 

 

[Damien the Leper]

I was never part of ZLMB. I wish I had been. I remember back to when I first started posting here 15 years ago. I was always up and down, angry, frustrated. I was not of the right emotional state to be posting on this board. It took several years for me to just let go. I realized that Mormonism wasn't a one size fits all. However, I have found a love for Mormonism from the outside because it is far more nuanced than I previously gave it credit for. Sometimes I miss some of the hardliners who used to post here such as ERayR, Russell C. McGregor (aka Pahoran), Selek, and Wade Englund. In the end, I wish them well. 

I joined the Catholic faith 4 years ago. Time has flown. I've learned so much from @MiserereNobis, @3DOP, and @Saint Bonaventure. Reading their posts always remind me of the absolute joy I've found in our shared faith.

On another note, I still believe that @Calm is @Nemesis.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What many see as broken promises by God are really them not getting things the way they wanted them done.

 

It isn’t always about the way someone wanted things.  There are many different reasons someone can have mistaken expectations of God, including church teachings that led one to focus on the wrong idea, imo.  For example, Believing Christ demonstrated how good intentioned, sincere and hardworking church members got the wrong idea about how they needed to be perfect in this life.  I think sometimes the use of debt/money language can mess up conclusions as well as if God operates on a cost/benefit basis when some parables blow that analogy away, such as when all the laborers get paid the same no matter how long they worked.

Edited May 14, 2024 by Calm

[Tacenda]

58 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

I was never part of ZLMB. I wish I had been. I remember back to when I first started posting here 15 years ago. I was always up and down, angry, frustrated. I was not of the right emotional state to be posting on this board. It took several years for me to just let go. I realized that Mormonism wasn't a one size fits all. However, I have found a love for Mormonism from the outside because it is far more nuanced than I previously gave it credit for. Sometimes I miss some of the hardliners who used to post here such as ERayR, Russell C. McGregor (aka Pahoran), Selek, and Wade Englund. In the end, I wish them well. 

I joined the Catholic faith 4 years ago. Time has flown. I've learned so much from @MiserereNobis, @3DOP, and @Saint Bonaventure. Reading their posts always remind me of the absolute joy I've found in our shared faith.

On another note, I still believe that @Calm is @Nemesis.

The good ole' days! I wonder where they are now, those you mentioned. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Anyone else remember links that looked like this?  http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessageRange?topicID=128.topic&start=181&stop=200

 

I actually cried when ezboard went to requiring reregistration of posters so we lost the names of many former posters who likely weren’t coming back again with all of them reset to “guest” so it became pretty much impossible to follow conversations. No more pleasant walking down memory lanes anymore.

Edited May 14, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I think this came from ZLMB, in a thread that lasted months:

Completely forgot about that one…

Then there was Bernard’s Heber S. Young stories (is that the right name, there is nothing coming up on Google and I am pretty sure there were some on this board too, but perhaps they were lost when Nemesis had to prune the board) ….I had saved them all on my computer and my husband promised to back it up before it got sold….yeah, should have done it myself.  

[Calm]

On 5/14/2024 at 12:16 PM, Damien the Leper said:

On another note, I still believe that @Calm is @Nemesis.

I really hope this is a joke because it makes me a liar (in my eyes at least) if true and honesty is very important to me…which is why I am posting a way too serious response (I know you have no intention to offend me and I am not the least bit offended. See? -> I just don’t want this myth to get legs again).  There is no way I can justify to myself saying over and over “I am not a mod” as some sort of white lie.

Let me repeat again…I am not now and I have never been Nemesis or any other mod on this board.  Being a mod destroys the fun of posting for me and I wouldn’t do that to myself again.  I think the only way I would be a mod ever again is if Nemesis came to me and said he couldn’t do it anymore and he didn’t trust anyone else to take over and it was either me or no one…and that ain’t ever going to happen.  Too many other posters who would be great candidates for one thing.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[Nemesis]

Can I just say anonymity is like a warm cozy blanket.  It allows me to run the site without interference from either side.  
 

Nemesis

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What many see as broken promises by God are really them not getting things the way they wanted them done.

 God doesn't break promises, people do.

Logical.

So it follows that either:

That is incorrect

-or-

What I was convinced was God’s communication was actually not which puts every experience of a similar spiritual caliber in question including those I built my testimony on

-or-

I somehow sinned away those promises but I can’t get an answer about that nor do I know what I did or did not do so there is no hope of improvement there

 

I also can’t get any other real communication beyond the vague ‘everything will be all right’ messages which I don’t really trust much either. So kind of fed up with God in general.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I really hope this is a joke because it makes me a liar (in my eyes at least) if true and honesty is very important to me…which is why I am posting a way too serious response (I know you have no intention to offend me and I am not the least bit offended. See? -> I just don’t want this myth to get legs again).  There is no way I can justify to myself saying over and over “I am not a mod” as some sort of white lie.

Let me repeat again…I am not now and I have never been Nemesis or any other mod on this board.  Being a mod destroys the fun of posting for me and I wouldn’t do that to myself.  I think the only way I would be a mod ever again is if Nemesis came to me and said he couldn’t do it anymore and he didn’t trust anyone else to take over and it was either me or no one…and that ain’t ever going to happen.  Too many other posters who would be great candidates for one thing.

I've thought about this on occasion, and then it comes to me if you could lie, and that's where I say nope, Calm wouldn't do that. Of course there are times people lie for the health and care of others... but I'll take your word for it. I just wanted to say how there are occasions for lying. 

Edited May 14, 2024 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

If I were Nemesis that would mean I probate and thread ban myself pretty regularly. Would I do that?

Yeah, probably.

[SkyRock]

I only joined not long ago, though I used to participate in other gospel sites 20 years ago or so, before I stopped.

I never liked the TBM label.  I have plenty of doubts and struggle now and then, but my faith continues and I trust in the Lord.  I know the church is a flawed institution full of flawed people, which includes leaders local and general.  

There are policies that are very flawed and I have thought so for a long time.   I haven't changed on that.   I recently came into position of some records from an ancestor that are concerning as well (as to the operation of the Church, not the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel).

I have prayed for many years on certain issues without resolution.... and have received near instant answers on others. 

I firmly believe that this is Christ's church in this day, in spite of the flaws of its leaders.  

I also believe that there is a lot of truth outside the church.   I do not believe the church has all the answers and fully accept that the leaders may make very wrong decisions, that may take decades or longer to address. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

52 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What I was convinced was God’s communication was actually not which puts every experience of a similar spiritual caliber in question including those I built my testimony on

I see a variation on this one endlessly with folks saying why they left the church.  Building a testimony on stuff that turns out to not be true.   Assuming prophets are supposed to be infallible, and then learning they're fallible.  Assuming God's hand guides every decision made by the church and it's leaders, and then learning it doesn't.   Assuming we know what God would/wouldn't allow or sanction, only to discover that our history or doctrine say something else. 

I give two bits of advice to everyone: 
- Make sure you know what you believe, and why you believe it.  Otherwise, you'll be blindsided by stuff you've never considered.  Life is an exercise in learning new stuff that changes our perspective.
- At the end of the day, the only valid reason to be a Mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one.  If your testimony is based on anything else, there are endless winds or rains or storms that'll blow you off your foundation.  

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I see a variation on this one endlessly with folks saying why they left the church.  Building a testimony on stuff that turns out to not be true.   Assuming prophets are supposed to be infallible, and then learning they're fallible.  Assuming God's hand guides every decision made by the church and it's leaders, and then learning it doesn't.   Assuming we know what God would/wouldn't allow or sanction, only to discover that our history or doctrine say something else. 

I give two bits of advice to everyone: 
- Make sure you know what you believe, and why you believe it.  Otherwise, you'll be blindsided by stuff you've never considered.  Life is an exercise in learning new stuff that changes our perspective.
- At the end of the day, the only valid reason to be a Mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one.  If your testimony is based on anything else, there are endless winds or rains or storms that'll blow you off your foundation.  

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I am not talking about other people relating spiritual communications to me. I was saying that I was convinced that I was receiving communication from God and some of it turned out to be wrong. I can accept that other people are fallible. I can even accept that I am fallible. If what I was convinced was direct communication from God is fallible than the whole structure starts to collapse. If the promises I was convinced I got through the Holy Ghost are false and they are similar to the experiences on which I based my faith than finding out that that whole channel of communication is deeply flawed has left me reevaluating everything. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Of course there are times people lie for the health and care of others... but I'll take your word for it.

I admit I have fudged a little when it came to not making my grandparents worry about me, but most of that was just not being explicit about what was going on or telling them I was fine when I was not (I can always tell myself there are many things in my life that are just fine, so I am being accurate about them). And the older I get, the less I care about that kind of thing and the more useful I find being open I am not having a great time is…but then I no longer have parents or grandparents that fuss and worry when I don’t want them to and now I can’t hide anything from them anyway (I am assuming, though it creeps me out a bit lol).  And pretty much everyone who asks already knows me and knows I am not looking for volunteering or sympathy and am just answering honestly.  

And I admit to not sharing information even when I know the other will get the wrong idea if it’s not going to do anyone harm (I get that others see just misunderstanding is harmful, I don’t, especially if it won’t change anyone’s behaviour or feelings).  I don’t feel the need to share unnecessary info either all the time, if that is possible to be believed, lol  

But I get almost sick when attempting to lie and I would never just lie straight out, I would have to add a lot of qualifiers in hopes that I might be able to talk myself into believing it was technically the truth somehow. 

Repeatedly black and white lying when I could choose to just ignore the claims?  No way. 
 

I get some assumed I was Nemesis, but that can easily be answered by I have always reported stuff I register as breaking the rules and if a mod is available, it makes sense that my post would often be the last on a closed thread.  There have been plenty of times I have reported something and then get annoyed and have only myself to blame when I go to post and discover the thread has been locked while I was posting, lol. 

Edited May 15, 2024 by Calm

[Maestrophil]

On 5/13/2024 at 10:48 AM, 10THAmendment said:

I was in major doubt when I joined and am now strong in my testimony. 

I was not in major doubt, but was struggling with some things, and now feel I have a solid more mature testimony

[manol]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I was convinced that I was receiving communication from God and some of it turned out to be wrong. I can accept that other people are fallible. I can even accept that I am fallible. If what I was convinced was direct communication from God is fallible than the whole structure starts to collapse. If the promises I was convinced I got through the Holy Ghost are false and they are similar to the experiences on which I based my faith than finding out that that whole channel of communication is deeply flawed has left me reevaluating everything. 

That happened to me.  It was devastating.  I still don't know what I got wrong and what (if anything) I got right.  I changed directions, and thus far my new direction hasn't put me in that position again. 

Edited May 14, 2024 by manol

[Damien the Leper]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I really hope this is a joke because it makes me a liar (in my eyes at least) if true and honesty is very important to me…which is why I am posting a way too serious response (I know you have no intention to offend me and I am not the least bit offended. See? -> I just don’t want this myth to get legs again).  There is no way I can justify to myself saying over and over “I am not a mod” as some sort of white lie.

Let me repeat again…I am not now and I have never been Nemesis or any other mod on this board.  Being a mod destroys the fun of posting for me and I wouldn’t do that to myself.  I think the only way I would be a mod ever again is if Nemesis came to me and said he couldn’t do it anymore and he didn’t trust anyone else to take over and it was either me or no one…and that ain’t ever going to happen.  Too many other posters who would be great candidates for one thing.

It is a total joke. It was a myth that I think we may have shared a chuckle about through our computer screens a long time ago. My desired response was that you'd roll your eyes, chuckle, and then throw the nearest solid object at my head.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

It is a total joke. It was a myth that I think we may have shared a chuckle about through our computer screens a long time ago. My desired response was that you'd roll your eyes, chuckle, and then throw the nearest solid object at my head.

I did roll my eyes and laugh as I was almost completely certain you had seen my disclaimers in the past, but I also could see the rumor mill creaking awake and so overloaded my just in case response.   Don’t know why I am the least defensive about it. I do not care if the ones who moan and groan about Nemesis think I am he; it’s more confusing those who don’t know what is going on that worries me.  

Edited May 14, 2024 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, Nemesis said:

Can I just say anonymity is like a warm cozy blanket.  It allows me to run the site without interference from either side.  
 

Nemesis

As someone who has been banned more than once, thank you for running the board. 

[Tacenda]

55 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As someone who has been banned more than once, thank you for running the board. 

Ditto!