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An Unrefined Earth Origin Theory In Which To Poke Holes


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Posted (edited)

1) Whereas, science seems to show that the earth is much older than 7,00 years.

2) Whereas, the scriptures state the possibility of the earth being cursed and utterly wasted at the coming of Christ.

* "5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Malachi 4)

* "1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." (Doctrine and Covenants 2)

* "9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse; (Doctrine and Covenants 29)

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

* (I'm having trouble tracking down the exact quote...)

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

Edited by ZealouslyStriving
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Posted (edited)

40 years ago as understanding of radiometric dating techniques spread through the culture, Christian folks were sort of forced to explain earth's existence for millions of years prior to Adam.  I've heard various "failed earth" stories several times.  It explains the dinosaurs, you see.

In my 1980's high school science class, in the unit talking about such things: The teacher presented Bishop Ussher's ~5900 yr old earth theory and supporting evidence, and also presented science stuff like spectrometers and radiocarbon dating and uranium decay and plate tectonics and all that.  The unit was timed to coincide with Ussher's date of October 23rd.  Right before the quiz, the teacher turned out the lights, lit the candle on the little cake, and we all sang Happy Birthday to the "Adam" and "Eve" students the class had picked.  Then we got quizzed on all the science stuff. 

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

My understanding is that Adam and Eve came to Earth as spirit beings from the First Estate where their physical bodies were organized Terrestrially, not Celestially, from the dust of the earth. And the veil of forgetfulness was placed over their minds.

According to Temple teachings, Elohim formally asked Jehovah: "Is man found on the earth?" And the answer was: "No." Thus there were not even precursors of humanoids.

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51 minutes ago, longview said:

Thus there were not even precursors of humanoids.

Why would “Man” apply to those who were not “Man”?

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3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

1) Whereas, science seems to show that the earth is much older than 7,00 years.

2) Whereas, the scriptures state the possibility of the earth being cursed and utterly wasted at the coming of Christ.

* "5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Malachi 4)

* "1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." (Doctrine and Covenants 2)

* "9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse; (Doctrine and Covenants 29)

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

* (I'm having trouble tracking down the exact quote...)

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

Here is the quote i think you're looking for:

"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God—are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 6:275, August 28, 1852)."

It is on p 283 of the attached. https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/2767 Bit it is better to read the whole thing to keep it in context, and of course anyone can make anything of it. I think your first two points can support your proposal without the 3rd to jumble it up with any Adam-God controversy (Adam being Heavenly Father and Eve Heavenly Mother).

And you'd still have to find a way to support a terrestrial earth / Garden of Eden if you want to go beyond the scriptural accounts s to how Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden. Perhaps: "Whereas translated people in a terrestrial world [precedence is that Zion was taken up, not yet celestialized, and the inhabitants are translated people] can have terrestrial children [children being born in the terrestrial Millennium offers precedence] to bring an Adam and an Eve from among their Father's spirit children [precedence] into a formerly ruined telestial earth/garden that had been healed to a terrestrial level [precedence is the prophecies of the Millennium]."

 

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On 5/10/2024 at 3:52 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

So there is a chance that this round of probation will also end in desolation and failure?

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On 5/10/2024 at 4:52 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

1) Whereas, science seems to show that the earth is much older than 7,00 years.

2) Whereas, the scriptures state the possibility of the earth being cursed and utterly wasted at the coming of Christ.

* "5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Malachi 4)

* "1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." (Doctrine and Covenants 2)

* "9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse; (Doctrine and Covenants 29)

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

* (I'm having trouble tracking down the exact quote...)

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work. I have empathy though. I used to do it as well.

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1 minute ago, Teancum said:

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work. I have empathy though. I used to do it as well.

No I'm having fun with ideas, letting my mind explore the possibilities of eternity. The great thing about our religion is we can let our thoughts take flight and think outside the box. Because we admit that we don't have all the answers to every question.

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6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work.

In my experience, this is a universal phenomenon to humans, never restricted to religion.  We all are born sponges, absorbing notions and opinions and beliefs as if they were fact.  We get it from our parents and peers, friends and church, co-workers and random people we encounter in life.  And new to the human race for the 21st century, the kiddos get it from social media.  As we grow and our circles of awareness expand, stuff comes out of nowhere and crashes into our never-before considered beliefs-held-as-truth.  Some of us dig in and defend, pulling on the full breadth and depth of logical fallacies and confirmation bias and whatnot.  Some of us stick our fingers in our ears and refuse to let new things in.  Some of us embrace learning new things, seeking out challenges to our preconceived notions.  Most change over time, some remain stuck across their lives.  

I'm a fan of speculation, trying out ideas to see how they "taste", pushing things to logical extremes to determine their worthiness.  

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On 5/10/2024 at 4:52 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

Do you believe Brigham Adam God Doctrine?

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21 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

In my experience, this is a universal phenomenon to humans, never restricted to religion.  We all are born sponges, absorbing notions and opinions and beliefs as if they were fact.  We get it from our parents and peers, friends and church, co-workers and random people we encounter in life.  And new to the human race for the 21st century, the kiddos get it from social media.  As we grow and our circles of awareness expand, stuff comes out of nowhere and crashes into our never-before considered beliefs-held-as-truth.  Some of us dig in and defend, pulling on the full breadth and depth of logical fallacies and confirmation bias and whatnot.  Some of us stick our fingers in our ears and refuse to let new things in.  Some of us embrace learning new things, seeking out challenges to our preconceived notions.  Most change over time, some remain stuck across their lives.  

I'm a fan of speculation, trying out ideas to see how they "taste", pushing things to logical extremes to determine their worthiness.  

I am good with that. 😁

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7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Do you believe Brigham Adam God Doctrine?

Personally, I see something in it- but it is not something I advocate for- in compliance with the counsel of those who currently hold the keys to establish doctrine in the Church.

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3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You don't have answers to most the questions.

I can give you answers to most questions based on my studies, but those would be opinions and wouldn't be established Church doctrine which are kept quite limited compared to the myriad questions people come up with.

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2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Personally, I see something in it- but it is not something I advocate for- in compliance with the counsel of those who currently hold the keys to establish doctrine in the Church.

At least with this we can know that Adam and Michael the Archangel were never the same being. Which they never were to begin with.

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