An Unrefined Earth Origin Theory In Which To Poke Holes

[ZealouslyStriving]

1) Whereas, science seems to show that the earth is much older than 7,00 years.

2) Whereas, the scriptures state the possibility of the earth being cursed and utterly wasted at the coming of Christ.

* "5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Malachi 4)

* "1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." (Doctrine and Covenants 2)

* "9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse; (Doctrine and Covenants 29)

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

* (I'm having trouble tracking down the exact quote...)

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

Edited May 10 by ZealouslyStriving

[LoudmouthMormon]

40 years ago as understanding of radiometric dating techniques spread through the culture, Christian folks were sort of forced to explain earth's existence for millions of years prior to Adam.  I've heard various "failed earth" stories several times.  It explains the dinosaurs, you see.

In my 1980's high school science class, in the unit talking about such things: The teacher presented Bishop Ussher's ~5900 yr old earth theory and supporting evidence, and also presented science stuff like spectrometers and radiocarbon dating and uranium decay and plate tectonics and all that.  The unit was timed to coincide with Ussher's date of October 23rd.  Right before the quiz, the teacher turned out the lights, lit the candle on the little cake, and we all sang Happy Birthday to the "Adam" and "Eve" students the class had picked.  Then we got quizzed on all the science stuff. 

Edited May 10 by LoudmouthMormon

[longview]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

My understanding is that Adam and Eve came to Earth as spirit beings from the First Estate where their physical bodies were organized Terrestrially, not Celestially, from the dust of the earth. And the veil of forgetfulness was placed over their minds.

According to Temple teachings, Elohim formally asked Jehovah: "Is man found on the earth?" And the answer was: "No." Thus there were not even precursors of humanoids.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, longview said:

Thus there were not even precursors of humanoids.

Why would “Man” apply to those who were not “Man”?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

1) Whereas, science seems to show that the earth is much older than 7,00 years.

2) Whereas, the scriptures state the possibility of the earth being cursed and utterly wasted at the coming of Christ.

* "5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Malachi 4)

* "1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." (Doctrine and Covenants 2)

* "9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse; (Doctrine and Covenants 29)

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

* (I'm having trouble tracking down the exact quote...)

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

Here is the quote i think you're looking for:

"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God—are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 6:275, August 28, 1852)."

It is on p 283 of the attached. https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/2767 Bit it is better to read the whole thing to keep it in context, and of course anyone can make anything of it. I think your first two points can support your proposal without the 3rd to jumble it up with any Adam-God controversy (Adam being Heavenly Father and Eve Heavenly Mother).

And you'd still have to find a way to support a terrestrial earth / Garden of Eden if you want to go beyond the scriptural accounts s to how Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden. Perhaps: "Whereas translated people in a terrestrial world [precedence is that Zion was taken up, not yet celestialized, and the inhabitants are translated people] can have terrestrial children [children being born in the terrestrial Millennium offers precedence] to bring an Adam and an Eve from among their Father's spirit children [precedence] into a formerly ruined telestial earth/garden that had been healed to a terrestrial level [precedence is the prophecies of the Millennium]."

 

[The Nehor]

On 5/10/2024 at 3:52 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

So there is a chance that this round of probation will also end in desolation and failure?

[Teancum]

On 5/10/2024 at 4:52 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

1) Whereas, science seems to show that the earth is much older than 7,00 years.

2) Whereas, the scriptures state the possibility of the earth being cursed and utterly wasted at the coming of Christ.

* "5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Malachi 4)

* "1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." (Doctrine and Covenants 2)

* "9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse; (Doctrine and Covenants 29)

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

* (I'm having trouble tracking down the exact quote...)

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work. I have empathy though. I used to do it as well.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work. I have empathy though. I used to do it as well.

No I'm having fun with ideas, letting my mind explore the possibilities of eternity. The great thing about our religion is we can let our thoughts take flight and think outside the box. Because we admit that we don't have all the answers to every question.

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work.

In my experience, this is a universal phenomenon to humans, never restricted to religion.  We all are born sponges, absorbing notions and opinions and beliefs as if they were fact.  We get it from our parents and peers, friends and church, co-workers and random people we encounter in life.  And new to the human race for the 21st century, the kiddos get it from social media.  As we grow and our circles of awareness expand, stuff comes out of nowhere and crashes into our never-before considered beliefs-held-as-truth.  Some of us dig in and defend, pulling on the full breadth and depth of logical fallacies and confirmation bias and whatnot.  Some of us stick our fingers in our ears and refuse to let new things in.  Some of us embrace learning new things, seeking out challenges to our preconceived notions.  Most change over time, some remain stuck across their lives.  

I'm a fan of speculation, trying out ideas to see how they "taste", pushing things to logical extremes to determine their worthiness.  

[Teancum]

On 5/10/2024 at 4:52 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

Do you believe Brigham Adam God Doctrine?

[Teancum]

36 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Because we admit that we don't have all the answers to every question.

You don't have answers to most the questions. 

[Teancum]

21 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

In my experience, this is a universal phenomenon to humans, never restricted to religion.  We all are born sponges, absorbing notions and opinions and beliefs as if they were fact.  We get it from our parents and peers, friends and church, co-workers and random people we encounter in life.  And new to the human race for the 21st century, the kiddos get it from social media.  As we grow and our circles of awareness expand, stuff comes out of nowhere and crashes into our never-before considered beliefs-held-as-truth.  Some of us dig in and defend, pulling on the full breadth and depth of logical fallacies and confirmation bias and whatnot.  Some of us stick our fingers in our ears and refuse to let new things in.  Some of us embrace learning new things, seeking out challenges to our preconceived notions.  Most change over time, some remain stuck across their lives.  

I'm a fan of speculation, trying out ideas to see how they "taste", pushing things to logical extremes to determine their worthiness.  

I am good with that. 😁

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Do you believe Brigham Adam God Doctrine?

Personally, I see something in it- but it is not something I advocate for- in compliance with the counsel of those who currently hold the keys to establish doctrine in the Church.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You don't have answers to most the questions.

I can give you answers to most questions based on my studies, but those would be opinions and wouldn't be established Church doctrine which are kept quite limited compared to the myriad questions people come up with.

[Damien the Leper]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Personally, I see something in it- but it is not something I advocate for- in compliance with the counsel of those who currently hold the keys to establish doctrine in the Church.

At least with this we can know that Adam and Michael the Archangel were never the same being. Which they never were to begin with.

[Stargazer]

On 5/13/2024 at 7:57 AM, Teancum said:

This is what you get when evidence conflicts and destroys what was previously held to be fact based only on faith-serious mental gymnastics to make your religious beliefs still work. I have empathy though. I used to do it as well.

 

On 5/13/2024 at 8:01 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

No I'm having fun with ideas, letting my mind explore the possibilities of eternity. The great thing about our religion is we can let our thoughts take flight and think outside the box. Because we admit that we don't have all the answers to every question.

Why do we think that the earth was created in 4004 BC, and right after that Adam and Eve got ejected from the Garden of Eden?

Because Archbishop James Ussher calculated in 1644 that the first day of creation was October 22, 4004 BC on the proleptic Julian calendar, near the autumnal equinox. Around the same time, another Church of England churchman, John Lightfoot similarly deduced that Creation began at nightfall near the autumnal equinox, but in the year 3929 BC. And to be fair, these gents weren't the only ones to make chronologies.

Their work was based on literal readings of the Old Testament along with some reference to Jewish historical traditions.

But why do we have to hew to their lines? I know a few LDS (including my wife) who get nervous around statements concerning the age of the solar system (4.5 billion years old), the age of the universe (13.4 billion years old), and clear paleontological evidence that primitive creatures resembling humans have existed on the earth for millions of years. All because of Ussher and his compatriots. So, a bunch of Protestants calculate something from the scriptures. My question is: what do they know? 

The thing is, the Bible was not written to be a paleontological guidebook. It is there to teach correct behavior, and to look forward to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

I am fascinated by PofGP Moses chapter 1. In my opinion, this scriptural chapter is one of the most forward-looking bit of revelation that God has ever caused to be written. 

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

This was given in the 1830s, at a time when astronomy knew nothing about what stars were, and hadn't understood about the existence of the Earth's galaxy, the Milky Way. The nature of the Milky Way as its own group of stars was only proved in the 20th century. And here Joseph Smith comes out with a revelation where God tells Moses that there are numberless "heavens" (which I interpret to mean solar systems), and there are inhabitants on other "earths"! And there have many which have passed away (i.e. reached their Millennia), others which are experiencing what we're experiencing, and others will come into existence. All because God has many more children to send into mortality than have existed on this earth. There is no end to His works. 

I try to tell people that God is very very busy. He is constantly creating new worlds for His children. When you look at the Orion Nebula, you see some of that going on. Ussher and his friends were laboring in ignorance, of both science and revelation. I appreciate their efforts to explain things, but it is ridiculous to imagine that they knew the history of the earth. I've known of people who have lost their faith when they discovered that Christ wasn't born on December 25. False traditions of men should not be used to build our faith.

Here's an interesting video that talks about the Orion Nebula and the new stars that God is creating even now (btw the video doesn't attribute this to God). Maybe some of those stars will eventually have planets inhabited by people, children of God. Here's another one without a bunch of narration:

 

Edited July 10 by Stargazer

[JVW]

On 5/10/2024 at 2:52 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

1) Whereas, science seems to show that the earth is much older than 7,00 years.

2) Whereas, the scriptures state the possibility of the earth being cursed and utterly wasted at the coming of Christ.

* "5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Malachi 4)

* "1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." (Doctrine and Covenants 2)

* "9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse; (Doctrine and Covenants 29)

3) Whereas, Brigham Young taught the Adam and Eve came here as celestial beings whose "fall" consisted of parking of the fallen elements of the earth- implying death, in some way, previous to their arrival.

* (I'm having trouble tracking down the exact quote...)

Thus, it is proposed that this earth, previous to the coming of Adam and Eve, had experienced a previous probation period in which the inhabitants failed and were cursed to waste away and degenerate into the homo-species that proceeded modern man, of whom Adam was first.

Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve were created on a fallen world, and that the world was in a fallen state before the Fall? Or that the world was fallen, but that God restored it to an unfallen state after the previous failed plan?

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, JVW said:

Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve were created on a fallen world, and that the world was in a fallen state before the Fall? Or that the world was fallen, but that God restored it to an unfallen state after the previous failed plan?

The second- that perhaps this earth was utterly wasted with a curse and this is a "redo".

*Remember this is just bouncing ideas, nothing I subscribe to.*

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 

Why do we think that the earth was created in 4004 BC, and right after that Adam and Eve got ejected from the Garden of Eden?

Because Archbishop James Ussher calculated in 1644 that the first day of creation was October 22, 4004 BC on the proleptic Julian calendar, near the autumnal equinox. Around the same time, another Church of England churchman, John Lightfoot similarly deduced that Creation began at nightfall near the autumnal equinox, but in the year 3929 BC. And to be fair, these gents weren't the only ones to make chronologies.

Their work was based on literal readings of the Old Testament along with some reference to Jewish historical traditions.

But why do we have to hew to their lines? I know a few LDS (including my wife) who get nervous around statements concerning the age of the solar system (4.5 billion years old), the age of the universe (13.4 billion years old), and clear paleontological evidence that primitive creatures resembling humans have existed on the earth for millions of years. All because of Ussher and his compatriots. So, a bunch of Protestants calculate something from the scriptures. My question is: what do they know? 

The thing is, the Bible was not written to be a paleontological guidebook. It is there to teach correct behavior, and to look forward to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

I am fascinated by PofGP Moses chapter 1. In my opinion, this scriptural chapter is one of the most forward-looking bit of revelation that God has ever caused to be written. 

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

This was given in the 1830s, at a time when astronomy knew nothing about what stars were, and hadn't understood about the existence of the Earth's galaxy, the Milky Way. The nature of the Milky Way as its own group of stars was only proved in the 20th century. And here Joseph Smith comes out with a revelation where God tells Moses that there are numberless "heavens" (which I interpret to mean solar systems), and there are inhabitants on other "earths"! And there have many which have passed away (i.e. reached their Millennia), others which are experiencing what we're experiencing, and others will come into existence. All because God has many more children to send into mortality than have existed on this earth. There is no end to His works. 

I try to tell people that God is very very busy. He is constantly creating new worlds for His children. When you look at the Orion Nebula, you see some of that going on. Ussher and his friends were laboring in ignorance, of both science and revelation. I appreciate their efforts to explain things, but it is ridiculous to imagine that they knew the history of the earth. I've known of people who have lost their faith when they discovered that Christ wasn't born on December 25. False traditions of men should not be used to build our faith.

Here's an interesting video that talks about the Orion Nebula and the new stars that God is creating even now (btw the video doesn't attribute this to God). Maybe some of those stars will eventually have planets inhabited by people, children of God. Here's another one without a bunch of narration:

 

I read this fascinating article yesterday:

https://www.thesimpleanswers.com/articles/2018/12/28/where-is-heaven/

 

[Dario_M]

And what is it about Jesus Christ and his return to the earth? When will that happen? The bible is clear about it. He will return at some point.

Edited July 10 by Dario_M

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

And what is it about Jesus Christ and his return to the earth? When will that happen? The bible is clear about it. He will return at some point.

Yes, He will. I personally believe in about 10 years +/-.

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Yes, He will. I personally believe in about 10 years +/-.

How do you know for so sure that he will be here in 10 years?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

And what is it about Jesus Christ and his return to the earth? When will that happen? The bible is clear about it. He will return at some point.

Some said He already returned. But need to dig up where I saw it.

[Dario_M]

44 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Some said He already returned. But need to dig up where I saw it.

If he really was here we would have noticed that.

I'm curious how he would look this time  though. But yeah... when it would happen stays a mistery i think.  

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

How do you know for so sure that he will be here in 10 years?

I don't- which is why I said that I personally "believe".