Evolving Views Since Joining Mormon Dialogue

[Malc]

1 minute ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Because the system only allows you to offer 3 options. 

Thanks for the reply. I've never tried to create a poll here, and was not aware of the restriction.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/27/2024 at 1:28 PM, Teancum said:

That odds of me ever returning to a belief and participation in Mormonism is slim to none. 
 

Come join me. It is a wonderful wide world of diversity out there. 

Stranger things have happened.

I’ve seen the Great and Spacious up close.

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/28/2024 at 11:58 AM, ttribe said:

Richard was an absolute jerk.

But he did have the cajones to show up at a FAIR conference and engage with those of us who did his research free for him. Granted, he didn’t change much in his second edition.

[Rain]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Stranger things have happened.

I’ve seen the Great and Spacious up close.

 

Are you ok? I've seen you throwing out a lot of barbs lately and it makes me wonder if you're not feeling well.

[manol]

46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Stranger things have happened.

I’ve seen the Great and Spacious up close.

 

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

Are you ok? I've seen you throwing out a lot of barbs lately and it makes me wonder if you're not feeling well.

I took it as Brother Gui just being playful.

I actually considered pointing my virtual finger and mocking him, then I took a closer look at his avatar and realized he probably spends ten hours a day practicing some ancient Vatican martial art, and maybe mocking him wouldn't be a very smart move...

[Malc]

9 minutes ago, manol said:

I took it as Brother Gui just being playful.

I actually considered pointing my virtual finger and mocking him, then I took a closer look at his avatar and realized he probably spends ten hours a day practicing some ancient Vatican martial art, and maybe mocking him wouldn't be a very smart move...

Some folks are clearly relative newcomers, and don't remember how prickly Brother Commandline could be.

[teddyaware]

37 minutes ago, Rain said:

Are you ok? I've seen you throwing out a lot of barbs lately and it makes me wonder if you're not feeling well.

In consideration of the fact that Alma the Younger and the Apostle Paul were among the most bitter and implacable enemies of Christ, yet both of these spiritually dead individuals were latter numbered among the Lord’s most devoted and loyal disciples, what’s “barb-like’ about acknowledging that miraculous conversions of those who were once seemingly out of reach actually do exist? And in the second sentence, what’s sarcastic about Qui acknowledging that he was once one of those who inhabited the great and spacious, yet he too was converted to the Savior?

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, manol said:

 

I took it as Brother Gui just being playful.

I actually considered pointing my virtual finger and mocking him, then I took a closer look at his avatar and realized he probably spends ten hours a day practicing some ancient Vatican martial art, and maybe mocking him wouldn't be a very smart move...

Don’t mess with the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition…

[Malc]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Don’t mess with the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition…

Nothing to worry about - it's all just propaganda.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:13 PM, Rain said:

Are you ok? I've seen you throwing out a lot of barbs lately and it makes me wonder if you're not feeling well.

Thanks for asking. Yes, I’m ok. I did not intend what you quoted as a barb

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:53 PM, Malc said:

Some folks are clearly relative newcomers, and don't remember how prickly Brother Commandline could be.

Who is Brother Commandline?

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:42 PM, manol said:

 

I took it as Brother Gui just being playful.

I actually considered pointing my virtual finger and mocking him, then I took a closer look at his avatar and realized he probably spends ten hours a day practicing some ancient Vatican martial art, and maybe mocking him wouldn't be a very smart move...

Nobody expects the Mormon Inquisition. Fetch the comfy chair!

[Rain]

32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for asking. Yes, I’m ok. I did not intend what you quoted as a barb

I'm glad you're ok.

[manol]

34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nobody expects the Mormon Inquisition. Fetch the comfy chair!

Nooooo!  NOT the comfy chair!  ANYTHING but the comfy chair!! 

I confess!  I confess!!

[Malc]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who is Brother Commandline?

The predecessor to Brother GraphicalUserInterface.

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, manol said:

Nooooo!  NOT the comfy chair!  ANYTHING but the comfy chair!! 

I confess!  I confess!!

If not the chair then a glass of cold milk!

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, Malc said:

The predecessor to Brother GraphicalUserInterface.

Of course. I knew that.

[Teancum]

On 5/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, gopher said:

I presupposed nothing about your happiness.  You probably should go back and read what I posted.  I was very clear that I was referring to believers who feel compassion towards those who have abandoned their faith.  I would be interested in hearing from any believers who disagree with that. 

Perhaps I am sensitive to this because I do have friends that tell me they wish they could "help" me get my testimony back and so on and how sad they are for me. But it I ask them how they would feel if I felt a need to enlighten them and move them out of Mormonism they say that would be repugnant. Will the feeling can be mutual can it not?  It is not my intent though to persuade anyone to abandon belief in Mormonism. I am happy to discuss the problems I see with it with my LDS friends but most don't want to have such conversations and I respect that.

 

 

On 5/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, gopher said:

I'm sure you have enough self awareness to recognize how smug and self assured your first sentence is. 

My comment about the evidence that speaks against the truth claims of the church was made in reaction to, honestly, what I viewed as a smug and self righteous tone in the post I responded to that you made. If I misread you I apologize.

 

On 5/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, gopher said:

 

If you want to feel sadness for a believer that still accepts the claims of Mormonism, I doubt any would feel offended.  This forum gives you the opportunity to share what you have now that you didn't have as a believer. 

I mostly don't care what my friends and family that are believing Latter day Saints do or don't do. If it makes them happy then terrific. Just respect me and my opinions and decisions. Most don't though. They still want to "save"me.  And I have friends and family who have distanced themselves from me who are active Mormons. And other than stopping my activity in the church I have done nothing or said nothing that should cause them to abandon me. Yet they have. As I have said here many times, I talk very little about the church and the problems I see with it outside this forum.

On 5/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, gopher said:

 

 So far, I haven't seen you post anything compelling enough to want to give up a lifetime of personal experiences that have convinced me to believe otherwise.  I do read your comments so I'm still giving you a chance though.

IT is not my intent or desire to change your mind. I share my ideas, thoughts and opinions and people are free to decide themselves.

On 5/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, gopher said:

Most of the believers here also know the issues and have come to very different conclusions. 

Obviously. This board really has very few participants these days. I don't imagine anyone is here to have their minds changed. I am open still though. @mfbukowskigives me much to think and ponder about.

 

On 5/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, gopher said:

 

I don't see believers here intimidated by the arguments of former believers.

My point was not about intimidation. My point was I think the seculare critics that are former members are more formidable opponents and offer better criticism of the church than evangelical critics. I have no data to bear that our however. It is just my experience and observations. Many secular critics, some that still post here at times, were formerly as avid defenders as many here are, myself included.

 

On 5/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, gopher said:

 

Many of the controversial issues don't have simple answers and both sides are often left to speculate.  It may be frustrating that there aren't answers for every question right now, but I think most believers have some comfort knowing that some day all questions will be answered to their satisfaction.  One evolving view I have gotten since joining this site is to be very wary of hobby defenders of the Church since they can often become the fiercest critics.  I have been impressed with believers who have navigated through all the issues and have come out even stronger in their trust in God, faith in Christ, and testimony of the restored church.

Terrific.

[Teancum]

On 5/28/2024 at 4:54 PM, teddyaware said:

One of the most powerful doctrinal gems found in Doctrine and Covenants 76 that most members of the church seem to be unaware of is that in order for any individual to qualify for an inheritance in any of the three post-resurrection kingdoms of glory he or she must first be converted to Christ, and these will be conversions that will be so sincere and heartfelt that even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will be more than willing to bow the knee before the throne of God the Father and humbly confess before him that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

So yes, by the time of the final judgement nearly all who have ever lived will be converted to the Christ who is Lord over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the only exception being those who few who will remain implacably rebellious against God and totally unrepentant. Those in this latter category are the sons of perdition who will remain “filthy still” (unforgiven) due to their refusal to humble themselves before God, exercise living faith in the atoning Christ, and sincerely repent unto obtaining a remission of their sins. These sons of perdition are the only once’s who will not be redeemed by Christ in the due time of the Lord.

Thanks to the great work of the redemption of the dead that will continue dynamically right up until the last minute before the day of judgement, we will all be able to realize that the Book of Mormon’s great prerequisite to salvation really is true — that the only way and means whereby any man or woman can receive an inheritance in one of God’s heavenly mansions of glory is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

and…

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

 

I view you as a fanatic in your religious zeal and even as a believer I would have found your approach to your religious views distasteful.

[Doctor Steuss]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:47 PM, Peacefully said:

I had an interesting chat with my Bishop about this subject during my temple recommend interview. Basically, he told me that I was worthy even with my progressive ideas as long as I wasn’t encouraging others to go against church doctrine. We talked about a gay member of his family and how much they and their partner are accepted. Neither the Bishop or I can change the church’s stance on this, but it is amazing how openly we can have these types of conversations and I feel like the same is going on in many other wards and stakes. I feel like something will change for the better, but who knows how long it will take. 

It's always interesting when you win (or, at least one poster in this thread would think this was a loss) the game of Bishop roulette.

When my ex-wife was baptized, and my son became a member of record, the Bishop pulled me in the hallway right before the confirmation fun and told me that he felt I needed to be in the circle.  I had always been honest with him about where I stood as far as belief went (I didn't believe in any of it by that point), but that never stopped him from calling me to speak in Church every other month, lol -- I think he discovered it was the only surefire way to make me attend Sacrament meeting.  He ran through Word of Wisdom, and some other stuff in the hall with me, and that was that.  I stood in the ole circle, openly agnostic.

 

[teddyaware]

23 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I view you as a fanatic in your religious zeal and even as a believer I would have found your approach to your religious views distasteful.

So you believe the idea that God, in his infinite and eternal love, is going to save all who ever lived in a state of joy, peace and endless happiness in one of his heavenly kingdoms of glory (the lone exception being the the sons of perdition who choose to be consigned to outer darkness rather humble themselves before God and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior) is indicative of fanaticism? I would have thought holding the notion that God is going to subject the majority of the human race to an endless hell of unspeakably horrific torture and misery is more like the kind of thinking a fanatic would embrace? It’s an interesting phenomenon to contemplate that there are some who are so perfectly miserable in their lost and fallen state that the very idea of a truly loving God doing all in his power to produce wonderfully positive eternal outcomes for all his must be the product of a deranged mind. It appears that what the Apostle Paul once testified really is true…

(paraphrasing) “… in them that perish we are the savour of death unto death; and unto the saved we are the savour of life unto life. (2 Corinthians 2: 15 & 16)

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

This board really has very few participants these days. I don't imagine anyone is here to have their minds changed. I am open still though. @mfbukowskigives me much to think and ponder about.

 

Wow!

Thanks!

Maybe I need to "turn it up" a notch. ........?

 

[mfbukowski]

On 5/27/2024 at 10:28 AM, Teancum said:

That odds of me ever returning to a belief and participation in Mormonism is slim to none.  Come join me. It is a wonderful wide world of diversity out there. 

OK but where do we send our tithes?  

 

 

(do I need an emoji here?,  nah I like to live dangerously....)

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

So you believe the idea that God, in his infinite and eternal love, is going to save all who ever lived in a state of joy, peace and endless happiness in one of his heavenly kingdoms of glory (the lone exception being the the sons of perdition who choose to be consigned to outer darkness rather humble themselves before God and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior) is indicative of fanaticism?

No.  It is the way you present. We can discuss the idea of a god forcing everyone to worship it or suffer perdition though if you like.

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

 

I would have thought holding the notion that God is going to subject the majority of the human race to an endless hell of unspeakably horrific torture and misery is more like the kind of thinking a fanatic would embrace? It’s an interesting phenomenon to contemplate that there are some who are so perfectly miserable in their lost and fallen state that the very idea of a truly loving God doing all in his power to produce wonderfully positive eternal outcomes for all his must be the product of a deranged mind. It appears that what the Apostle Paul once testified really is true…

If I were to believe in any sort of after life before knowing what is was when I enter there, or not knowing because I won't exist perhaps, ,the LDS version approaches a universalism which it appealing and for me the most appealing of any Christian heaven or hell reward.  At the same time let's not forget that many will have to suffer just as Jesus suffered according to D&C Section 19. So there still is a pretty heavy punishment for heathens like me. And some LDS people argue that since I as believing member, hold the priesthood and am endowed I could end up as a son of perdition.

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

(paraphrasing) “… in them that perish we are the savour of death unto death; and unto the saved we are the savour of life unto life. (2 Corinthians 2: 15 & 16)

 

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Wow!

Thanks!

Maybe I need to "turn it up" a notch. ........?

 

I am happy to learn more.