Evolving Views Since Joining Mormon Dialogue

[manol]

This board is where I go for conversation about beliefs, the local dialect being somewhat familiar to me. If @MrShorty is a cafeteria Mormon, then perhaps I'm a cafeteria ex-Mormon, still finding things that taste good to my soul on the Mormon menu. I voted “was TBM but now have my doubts”, as I think that's the closest description.

[MiserereNobis]

On 5/16/2024 at 11:06 PM, 3DOP said:

I think successful errors always have intellectual appeal, not absurdities.

I’ve always loved this phrase of yours. I use it when people say the Trinity is absurd. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 5/17/2024 at 12:18 AM, Calm said:

Saemo?

That’s who I was thinking of. 

[Peppermint Patty]

On 5/14/2024 at 8:11 AM, teddyaware said:

The Lectures on Faith makes it painstakingly clear that a god who can’t be trusted and breaks promises is no God — at best no more than an object of false, idolatrous worship.

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/16/2024 at 10:10 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Give ol' Heber my regards!  

Next time I see him I will!

[Teancum]

On 5/14/2024 at 9:52 PM, Bernard Gui said:

I have been around for a very long time. This has not changed my firm belief, but I am sad that this place has changed from almost exclusively defending the Church from outside criticism to defending it mostly from disgruntled current or former members.

Former members and secular critics are the most threat to believers. And I think they are very successful at demonstrating that Mormonism is not what it claims to be. The evangelical and other religious critics did not fare well for the most part IMO.

[rodheadlee]

On 5/14/2024 at 1:50 PM, The Nehor said:

Logical.

So it follows that either:

That is incorrect

-or-

What I was convinced was God’s communication was actually not which puts every experience of a similar spiritual caliber in question including those I built my testimony on

-or-

I somehow sinned away those promises but I can’t get an answer about that nor do I know what I did or did not do so there is no hope of improvement there

 

I also can’t get any other real communication beyond the vague ‘everything will be all right’ messages which I don’t really trust much either. So kind of fed up with God in general.

I think God is fed up with us.

[rodheadlee]

On 5/18/2024 at 4:33 PM, Peppermint Patty said:

 

Numbers 23:19

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Numbers 23:19

I disagree with the title of Dan’s video….I think a more accurate title would be In the Bible, one of man’s perspectives of God lies.

Edited May 24, 2024 by Calm

[smac97]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I disagree with the title of Dan’s video….I think a more accurate title would be In the Bible, one of man’s perspectives of God lies.

A few thoughts:

1. List of "God Lies" Scriptures

Here are the scriptures that, I think, are often utilized to argue that "God lies" or condones lying, or that the Bible contradicts itself about this issue:

God Does Not Lie:

• Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that he should lie..."
• 1 Samuel 15:29 - "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."
• 2 Samuel 7:28 - "And now, O Lord God, thou art that God, and thy words be true..."
• Psalm 119:160 - "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."
• Hebrews 6:18 - "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation..."

God Lies or Condones Lying:

• 1 Kings 22:23 - "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
• 2 Chronicles 18:22 - "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee."
• Jeremiah 4:10 - "Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul."
• Jeremiah 20:7 - "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me."
• Ezekiel 14:9 - "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

2. 2 Chronicles 18 / 1 Kings 22

Regarding 2 Chronicles 18 (which is essentially identical to the passage in 1 Kings 22), this 1981 Ensign article by Monte S. Nyman may be worth a look: Restoring “Plain and Precious Parts”: The Role of Latter-day Scriptures in Helping Us Understand the Bible

A key quote:

Quote

Similarly, a problem in 2 Chronicles 18 [2 Chr. 18] was cleared up by the Prophet Joseph. Ahab, king of Israel, asks Jehosophat, king of Judah, to go with him into battle. Jehosophat desires the direction of a prophet before committing himself and is not satisfied by Ahab’s four hundred supposed prophets. Ahab finally calls Micaiah, but reluctantly since “he never prophecied good of me.” (2 Chr. 18:7.) The text of Micaiah’s next experience is unclear and further makes the Lord responsible for putting a lying spirit in the mouths of the four hundred previous prophets. The Joseph Smith Translation corrected this error, although it did not restore the full text.

“Then there came out a lying spirit, and stood before them, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?

“And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shall entice him, and thou shall also prevail; go out, and do even so; for all these have sinned against me.

“Now therefore, behold the Lord hath found a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.” (JST, 2 Chr. 18:20–22; italics show Joseph Smith’s changes.)

Later, the Prophet Joseph commented on the true principle of the account: “Micaiah could point out the false spirit by which the four hundred prophets were governed; and if his advice had been taken, many lives would have been spared.” (Teachings, p. 207.)

Quite interesting how "found," rather than "put," changes the meaning quite a bit.

3. Ezekiel 14

This essay, also by Monte Nyman, notes how the JST addresses the passage in Ezekiel 14:

Quote

In Ezekiel 14:9, the KJV reads, “And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.” Joseph Smith corrected this verse to say, “And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have not deceived that prophet; therefore I will stretch out my hand. . . .” The Lord does not deceive his prophets.

Again, a single word ("not") changes the meaning (and allows the passage to make a lot more sense).

4. Jeremiah 4

In this article (amusingly entitled "Thou Shalt Not Whine") Dan Ellsworth addresses the passage in Jeremiah 4:10, framing it not as an inspired prophetic utterance, but rather as a complaint:

Quote

In scripture, prophetic complaints are usually in response to irony.  The prophets say to the Lord: You have all power, and yet your people suffer. You promised us x, and yet we are experiencing y.  Jeremiah’s first communication to the Lord is astonishment at his prophetic call, and his second communication to the Lord is jarring, as he goes so far as to accuse the Lord of lying to Israel in prophetic promises of peace and deliverance: “Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul” (Jer 4:10).

Perhaps, then, a crucial difference between murmuring and mature expressions of complaint lies in the intent; prophetic lament is based on what prophets perceive as incongruities in God’s plans and promises versus observed reality. 

This seems to be a more reasonable interpretation than "God lies."

5. Jeremiah 20

In this essay ("History and Jeremiah’s Crisis of Faith"), S. Kent Brown addresses the passage in Jeremiah 20, framing it as an expression of despair, even a faith crisis:

Quote

Having now established the high probability, not only that Herodotus’s record of the Scythian invasion is historically reliable, but also that this invasion came within the first years of Jeremiah’s ministry, we turn to the confessions themselves. Taken together, [27] the confessions clearly demonstrate both that the prophet was deeply disappointed because of unfulfilled prophecies and that, consequently, he felt God had abandoned him. In these solemn dirges one plainly sees that Jeremiah passed through a crisis which shook his faith in the Lord. Let us first discuss the confessions in order (see Jeremiah 11:18–12:6; 15:10–21; 17:9f., 14–18; 18:18–23; 20:7–12, 14–18), [28] and then suggest a reconstruction of events which led to his difficulties.
...

In his third confession, appearing in chapter 17, Jeremiah again stated that the Lord had been trying him severely. He quoted the Lord as saying, “I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings” (Jeremiah 17:10). But even though he had been severely tested, the prophet acknowledged that only the Lord finally could help him (see Jeremiah 17:14).

Verse 15 may hold a clue as to what had happened. We read: “Behold, they say unto me, where is the word of the Lord? Let it come now.” Plainly, Jeremiah was being teased and ridiculed because what he had prophesied had not come about. Something had obviously gone amiss—at least in the view of his hearers—and he was being baited to say more and thus compound his apparent errors. In this connection, we observe that in his fourth confession (see Jeremiah 18:18–23) he noted how his persecutors devised ways to trap him in his words so that they might refute him and not feel obliged to listen seriously to his message. Again, it is worthwhile to point out the prophet’s reference here to constant harassment and persecution.

Jeremiah’s fifth confession (Jeremiah 20:7–12) contains what is perhaps his most poignant statement:

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, everyone mocketh me. (Jeremiah 20:7.)

He went on to say that his trust in the word of the Lord had fallen so low that he had decided to quit, [32] not to “speak any more in his name, But his word was in my heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay” from uttering the words of the Lord. (Jeremiah 20:9.) The feeling that he was deceived finds close links with the theme of trial when, almost immediately afterward, he mentioned the “Lord of hosts, that triest the righteous” (Jeremiah 20:12). So intense had persecution of him become that Jeremiah, who once had prayed for his people, now demanded that the Lord take vengeance on those who treated him despitefully.

The last confession (Jeremiah 20:14–18) was written in the depths of despair. I know of only one other mournful passage in all of scripture that can match its majestic blackness and sorrow. [33] Indeed, the prophet had been brought to the end of his strength and wit. His faith had run out. What made him feel that he had been deceived by God himself, that somehow the Lord had made sport of him and finally had abandoned him?

The answer, as I have suggested, is to be connected with the sudden appearance and then abrupt disappearance of the Scythians—tiny events when viewed against the massive events of the fall of the Assyrian Empire. But before I offer my final solution to the problem, I must briefly return to an issue discussed earlier in another context. It concerns the series of statements about an “evil from the north” (see Jeremiah 4:6), the instrument of God’s wrath against the unrepentant kingdom of Judah. As we already noted, the identity of this peril was not known to Jeremiah during the early years of his ministry. We should now further observe that Zephaniah, whose ministry preceded that of Jeremiah by a few years, also knew of a peril that was to come out of the north. [34] Since Zephaniah did not name this foe in his writings, it is clear that Jeremiah could not have learned its identity from this source.

The historical context sure helps here.

6. Summing Up

Between allowing for errors in the text (some of which are here apparently corrected in the JST) and contextualizing isolated verses in the text, these issues seem to be resolvable.  This is all still a matter of faith.  But then, that has always been so.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 24, 2024 by smac97

[ZealouslyStriving]

Devil's Advocate Alert:

The story of Abraham making "misleading" statements about his relationship with Sarah is, in restoration scripture, at the command of Yahweh- but we are told any lying, by commission or ommission, is still lying and sinful- yet Abraham is clearly being instructed to omit certain information.

🤔

The Catholics had an interesting back and forth on whether lying is permissible in certain situations in the New Oxford Review last year.

[Teancum]

On 5/17/2024 at 10:30 AM, gopher said:

I think you make a good point.  This place was much more entertaining back when evangelicals would stop in to confidently tell believers what the church really believes.  It's much sadder when you are defending the church against former believers, especially those that have also abandoned their belief in God and faith in Jesus Christ.  Those are two things most believers hold on to even when they don't fully understand and can't explain all the issues in church history, doctrines, scriptures, etc.  I realize they aren't looking for sympathy, but it's still sad to see anyone abandon something so fundamental to your own happiness in life.  It's just not as fun to spar with them about important gospel topics.

Well maybe former believers find it sad that believers still seem unable to grasp the abundance of evidence supports that that claims of Mormonism are more likely than not, false.  And you presuppose that we are not happy.  Maybe some or most or happier. Honestly I find comments like these rather self righteous in tone and well as smug and self assured.

 

I think it is tough to spar with us because we know the issues, most have read as much if not more than many current believers of the apologetics and found them wanting.  Some of us were actually hobby defenders of Mormonism as well.  As for a belief in God and Jesus my guess is some still hold to that. Many don't or have a much more nuanced view of religion in general.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/23/2024 at 1:22 PM, Teancum said:

Former members and secular critics are the most threat to believers. And I think they are very successful at demonstrating that Mormonism is not what it claims to be. The evangelical and other religious critics did not fare well for the most part IMO.

That’s true of any ex-whatevers, including  ex-ex-Mormons who return after seeing the alternatives. I look forward to your return. 

Edited May 27, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s true of any ex-whatevers, including  ex-ex-Mormons who return after seeing the alternatives. I look forward to your return. 

That odds of me ever returning to a belief and participation in Mormonism is slim to none.  Come join me. It is a wonderful wide world of diversity out there. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

That odds of me ever returning to a belief and participation in Mormonism is slim to none. 

Well, at least until you find out in the next life we are right.  😛 

[Kenngo1969]

On 5/17/2024 at 11:27 PM, manol said:

... If @MrShorty is a cafeteria Mormon, then perhaps I'm a cafeteria ex-Mormon, still finding things that taste good to my soul on the Mormon menu. I voted “was TBM but now have my doubts”, as I think that's the closest description.

You would always be welcome back.  I'm glad that, any doubts you might have notwithstanding, still, you find things that taste good to your soul in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  If I weren't "otherwise occupied" during sacrament meeting, I would invite you to share a pew with me.  In the Church of Jesus Christ or out of it, you're OK in my book.  "Inasmuch as men do good, they shall in nowise lose their reward."  Doctrine and Covenants 58:28.  

[Kenngo1969]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:20 PM, Teancum said:

Well maybe former believers find it sad that believers still seem unable to grasp the abundance of evidence supports that that claims of Mormonism are more likely than not, false.  And you presuppose that we are not happy.  Maybe some or most or happier. Honestly I find comments like these rather self righteous in tone and well as smug and self assured. ...

I would tell any such former believer, "Don't cry for me, Argentina!"   And, with due respect, while I think I understand what you're trying to say here, unintentionally or not, you're trying to hew (or, you are trying to hold the Church of Jesus Christ) to two very different standards of evidence.  Saying that there is an "abundance of evidence" of the falsity of the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ is a very different thing than saying that there is a mere preponderance of the evidence (which is what "more likely so than not" means).

But if you're happy, more power to you.  By all means, you do you.  As I told @manol "Inasmuch as men do good, they shall in nowise lose their reward."  Doctrine and Covenants 58:28.  As for me, while I know this analogy or this scenario is imperfect because if the atheists/skeptics are right, I won't go anywhere and I will simply cease to exist, if, in whatever realm (if any) is to come, I am greeted by Wallace Shawn as he played Vizzini in The Princess Bride laughing uproariously at me and saying, "You fool!  It was the atheists/skeptics!  They had it right all along!"     I'll simply have to shrug and say, "Welp, I simply did my best to discern and to do what I thought God wanted me to do: To love Him and to serve Him to the best of my ability, to love others and to serve them to the best of my ability, to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, to mourn with those that mourned, to comfort those that stood in need of comfort, to stand as a witness of God at all times and in all things and in all places, and so on and so forth, but, oh, well!  I guess the joke's on me, Vizzini/Mr. Shawn!  I'm glad you're having such a good laugh at my expense!"  

[Kenngo1969]

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

That odds of me ever returning to a belief and participation in Mormonism is slim to none.  Come join me. It is a wonderful wide world of diversity out there. 

   Nope!  Intended or not, no condescension there!  With all due respect, you seem to have forgotten that one of the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole.  To whatever degree any specific member of the Church of Jesus Christ might be guilty of wearing blinders, most of us don't, particularly not those who converted from other religious traditions (or from no particular religious tradition at all).  And, while I cannot speak for anyone else, while, in my opinion, most members of the Church of Jesus Christ do have open minds, on the other hand, perhaps it behooves us (and I would say that definitely, it does) to not have such open minds that our brains fall out.    

Just sayin'!

[Teancum]

56 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

   Nope!  Intended or not, no condescension there!  With all due respect, you seem to have forgotten that one of the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole.  To whatever degree any specific member of the Church of Jesus Christ might be guilty of wearing blinders, most of us don't, particularly not those who converted from other religious traditions (or from no particular religious tradition at all).  And, while I cannot speak for anyone else, while, in my opinion, most members of the Church of Jesus Christ do have open minds, on the other hand, perhaps it behooves us (and I would say that definitely, it does) to not have such open minds that our brains fall out.    

Just sayin'!

My comment was a smug comment in response to another smug comment.

[gopher]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:20 PM, Teancum said:

Well maybe former believers find it sad that believers still seem unable to grasp the abundance of evidence supports that that claims of Mormonism are more likely than not, false.  And you presuppose that we are not happy.  Maybe some or most or happier. Honestly I find comments like these rather self righteous in tone and well as smug and self assured.

I presupposed nothing about your happiness.  You probably should go back and read what I posted.  I was very clear that I was referring to believers who feel compassion towards those who have abandoned their faith.  I would be interested in hearing from any believers who disagree with that. 

I'm sure you have enough self awareness to recognize how smug and self assured your first sentence is.  If you want to feel sadness for a believer that still accepts the claims of Mormonism, I doubt any would feel offended.  This forum gives you the opportunity to share what you have now that you didn't have as a believer.   So far, I haven't seen you post anything compelling enough to want to give up a lifetime of personal experiences that have convinced me to believe otherwise.  I do read your comments so I'm still giving you a chance though.

On 5/24/2024 at 4:20 PM, Teancum said:

I think it is tough to spar with us because we know the issues, most have read as much if not more than many current believers of the apologetics and found them wanting.  Some of us were actually hobby defenders of Mormonism as well.  As for a belief in God and Jesus my guess is some still hold to that. Many don't or have a much more nuanced view of religion in general.

Most of the believers here also know the issues and have come to very different conclusions.  I don't see believers here intimidated by the arguments of former believers.  Many of the controversial issues don't have simple answers and both sides are often left to speculate.  It may be frustrating that there aren't answers for every question right now, but I think most believers have some comfort knowing that some day all questions will be answered to their satisfaction.  One evolving view I have gotten since joining this site is to be very wary of hobby defenders of the Church since they can often become the fiercest critics.  I have been impressed with believers who have navigated through all the issues and have come out even stronger in their trust in God, faith in Christ, and testimony of the restored church.

[ttribe]

On 5/16/2024 at 10:50 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Hey, Mnobis…

1.  I would say that most of the opposition from non-LDS critics has been answered or beaten to death. Those great apologists from the past who used to hold forth here have moved on to other things. 
2.  Zealous non-LDS critics used to come here to test out their stuff, sometimes in preparation for book publication. There were many from mostly the Protestant camp who came to sharpen their teeth.  Richard Abanes (“One Nation Under Gods”) comes to mind.
3.  Former and disgruntled members eventually filled the void by bringing up some old apologetic issues and introducing internal doctrinal, procedural, and cultural beefs that cause intermittent but often repeated heartburn.  I don’t like pitting brothers and sisters in the gospel against one another. IMO, that is contrary to the Savior’s desires for His Church. 

Best wishes, friend. 

Richard was an absolute jerk.

[Kenngo1969]

I would have excellent reasons for saying, "Forget it.  This isn't what I signed up for.  The Church of Jesus Christ isn't what its leaders bill it as, or, heck, for that matter, belief in an allegedly-omniscient, allegedly-all-loving, allegedly-omnipotent God isn't all it's cracked up to be, either, so I might as well just get whatever I can get out of this life and 'Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow (I) die,'" (see Ecclesiastes 8:15, Isaiah 22:13, 2 Nephi 28:7) if that's what I were to choose to do.  This would be so particularly if I conceived of God as being akin to Santa Claus, who gives "presents" to His "good/nice" children and "lumps of coal" to the "naughty" ones (such as, apparently, Yours Truly), or if I conceived of God as a candy machine: "Here's my 'quarter' of obedience, now give me my candy!"

And yet ...

All I can do, really, is shrug, and, in the words of Peter's answer to the Savior's [rather plaintive, it seems to me] query to the Apostles after many of His disciples "went back, and walked no more with Him," "Will ye also go away?", say, "Lord, to whom shall we go?  Thou hast the words of eternal life."  See John 6:66-68.  All I can do is say, as did Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." Job 13:15.  All I can do is say, as did Nephi, "I know that [God] loveth His children.  Nevertheless, I know not the meaning of all things."  1 Nephi 11:17.

I did a search on the immediately foregoing scripture, and one of the things that came up is this link to an entry from my blog of some time ago, so I can't resist throwing it in!  

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2017/09/12/on-gods-alleged-favoritism/

For what any of this is worth ...  

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by Kenngo1969

[teddyaware]

On 5/27/2024 at 1:28 PM, Teancum said:

That odds of me ever returning to a belief and participation in Mormonism is slim to none.  Come join me. It is a wonderful wide world of diversity out there. 

One of the most powerful doctrinal gems found in Doctrine and Covenants 76 that most members of the church seem to be unaware of is that in order for any individual to qualify for an inheritance in any of the three post-resurrection kingdoms of glory he or she must first be converted to Christ, and these will be conversions that will be so sincere and heartfelt that even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will be more than willing to bow the knee before the throne of God the Father and humbly confess before him that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

So yes, by the time of the final judgement nearly all who have ever lived will be converted to the Christ who is Lord over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the only exception being those who few who will remain implacably rebellious against God and totally unrepentant. Those in this latter category are the sons of perdition who will remain “filthy still” (unforgiven) due to their refusal to humble themselves before God, exercise living faith in the atoning Christ, and sincerely repent unto obtaining a remission of their sins. These sons of perdition are the only once’s who will not be redeemed by Christ in the due time of the Lord.

Thanks to the great work of the redemption of the dead that will continue dynamically right up until the last minute before the day of judgement, we will all be able to realize that the Book of Mormon’s great prerequisite to salvation really is true — that the only way and means whereby any man or woman can receive an inheritance in one of God’s heavenly mansions of glory is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

and…

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by teddyaware

[california boy]

Having grown up in the church and being a member for more than half of my adult life, I know full well that one can be very happy being in the Mormon community and embracing its beliefs whether they are true or not.  Most don’t really care if concerning beliefs are true or not. If it works for them , then what difference does it really make if things like the Book of Abraham was actually written by the hand of Abraham or a number of other issues some have a hard time believing. 
 

I left the Church for none of those reasons.  I left because the Church made it impossible for me to find a partner that I could love and share my life without feeling ashamed for being gay and wanting a loving partner.  Yes, I am so significantly happier since I left the Church as most other LGBT members are.  But that is a totally different reason for leaving because of doctrinal and historical issues

 

  I completely understand why most on this board stay in the Church and I have no desire to try and convince them to leave.  What I do hope is that I  can bring a different perspective to members who have very ridged views on how the Church deals with LBBT issues.  Eventually I think the Church will come up with a solution that works better than current policies. It isn’t about appeasing those who advocate for better LGBT policies. Hopefully it will come decause of a desire to develop policies that keep those LGBT members on a better path towards Christ that they can live with. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

44 minutes ago, california boy said:

Eventually I think the Church will come up with a solution that works better than current policies.

Such as?