SteelMagnoliainTexas Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist.
Metis_LDS Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) Bible scholars agree on 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in which the Apostle Paul informs the Christians of Thessalonica that a great apostasy must occur before the return of Christ. It would seem that the whole chapter of 2 Thessalonians 2 is about the apostasy Paul was a highly educated man and I find what he wrote difficult to follow. But I am not a Bible scholar. Edited June 17, 2022 by Metis_LDS grammar 3
Fether Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 2 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. Do you see how the early Catholic Church adopted many pagan traditions into their teachings? Do you see all the non-biblical traditions they have? How can we say that the Catholic Church carried the full truth from Christ’s death all the way to start of Protestantism. How do you justify the council of Nicaea? Everything Christian’s hold sacred today was decided in a council of men that were annoyed there were different beliefs. They decided on the trinity and what books of scripture we ought to hold as true. This wasn’t God coming down and telling them what was what… this was a bunch of bishops trying to decide what teaching ought to be held true in order to keep the church together. 2
Calm Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. Are you Catholic or Orthodox? Something else? It would help to explain our position if we know how you view priesthood authority. Edited June 17, 2022 by Calm
Fether Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 2 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. Here is a good resource that fully explains our views:
Calm Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) Also in addition to Fether’s material, a brief summary of our belief in the general apostasy, including scriptural references: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/apostasy?lang=eng and this talk from one of our apostles: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1995/05/apostasy-and-restoration?lang=eng Edited June 17, 2022 by Calm
Amulek Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 3 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch [sic] disappearing off the planet. I think these are the verses you are looking for: Joseph Smith—History 1:17–19.
teddyaware Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. If you are a Protestant, then you must believe there was a falling away of the church from the correct path established by Christ and the Apostles because that’s what Protestantism is all about — new nonCatholic churches were established by men who were protesting (thence the term PROTESTant) the fact that the Catholic Church had strayed from the truth and purity of the early Apostolic Church. But if it turns out that you are a believing, practicing, Catholic, I’ll respond to you again when you let me know that you are. Edited June 17, 2022 by teddyaware 1
rpn Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 When those who had been appropriately ordained to the priesthood died, there was no one left with authority to ordain anyone else to the priesthood. Therefore no one on earth with authority to act for our Heavenly Parents and Jesus. Thus no Church of Jesus Christ left on earth (eventually both in Europe and Middle East and on the American continent). 1
Tacenda Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Fether said: Do you see how the early Catholic Church adopted many pagan traditions into their teachings? Do you see all the non-biblical traditions they have? How can we say that the Catholic Church carried the full truth from Christ’s death all the way to start of Protestantism. How do you justify the council of Nicaea? Everything Christian’s hold sacred today was decided in a council of men that were annoyed there were different beliefs. They decided on the trinity and what books of scripture we ought to hold as true. This wasn’t God coming down and telling them what was what… this was a bunch of bishops trying to decide what teaching ought to be held true in order to keep the church together. Sounds somewhat familiar, and that is why religion is man made, IMO.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Fether said: Do you see how the early Catholic Church adopted many pagan traditions into their teachings? Umm… Just an example. The Latter-day Saint Temple ceremony is based on Free Masonry. Now you can say that the Mason one is based on some ancient rite that Joseph restored, but if you are going to do that you have to allow (it seems to me) that any pagan influences in Catholic teachings could be similarly explained. 2
Fether Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Umm… Just an example. The Latter-day Saint Temple ceremony is based on Free Masonry. Now you can say that the Mason one is based on some ancient rite that Joseph restored, but if you are going to do that you have to allow (it seems to me) that any pagan influences in Catholic teachings could be similarly explained. Fair!
Pyreaux Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 Everyone believes there was an "apostasy"/"falling away" after the Apostles died. Even the Catholics, though they believe it was the early persecution of Rome. Only an apostasy doesn't describe attacks from the outside, but a rebellion from within. If you are not Catholic or Orthodox, every major church, beginning with the Anglican Church (Church of England) 800 years later, and onward were all started with the belief that no true form of the original church existed on earth until themselves. Or else there is no point in starting a new sect if the others were just fine. The Bible is very clear about not creating sects, the need for a new sect must begin with the presumption that the other sects are somehow so wrong that they have "fallen away" in your eyes. There must be a true church, or a most true church. You might say they is no true church because you believe you are saved despite the church you join, but surely you aren't telling me you believe they are all equally true when they teach fundamentally different things. Someone must be in error or don't teach enough truth. Like a church that only preaches about faith in Christ, because that is true, they would be a true church, but not the most true church, because the gospels teach us more than that. You can't just teach the basics of the gospel forever and still be a living church, you must provide people the meat eventually which is beyond that milk (Hebrews 5:11-6:3). 3
strappinglad Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 After 27 years of reading the Bible , did you not see Acts 20:29 ? Once you see the results of a wolf pack attack on an animal or flock, you will better understand the meaning of this scripture > 1
InCognitus Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. We don't believe the church disappeared completely off of the planet, but the church "fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God" (Revelation 12:6) and remained there until the restoration of the gospel, which was "the rising up and the coming forth of [of the Lord's] church out of the wilderness" (Doctrine and Covenants 5:14). 12 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? Acts 20:28-31: "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Mat 13:24-25: "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way." 12 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. Not so. Through the restoration, the Lord reestablished his prophets and apostles upon the earth. And after the death of Joseph Smith there was a continuation of apostles and prophets and that same organization continues until this day. The Bible teaches us that the offices of apostles and prophets are essential to the organization of the church, and are intended to continue until we all "come in the unity of the faith", giving us the leadership so that "we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men": Ephesians 4:11-14 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" After the apostles were killed, the church was left to be "tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine". 12 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. The persecution of Rome caused the death of the faithful saints, and they died as martyrs. The apostles were among these martyrs. This is exactly why an apostasy came about. The apostle John wrote, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." (1 John 2:18). In John's view, there were only two options: Either faithful martyrdom or unfaithful apostasy: Rev 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Edited June 17, 2022 by InCognitus 3
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 12 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. Sort of an odd comment for this website and forum? 🤔
Popular Post juliann Posted June 18, 2022 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2022 18 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. Why don't you take some time to get to know the background of those you scold? We have trained scholars here so, yes, they have taken the time...and money...to research. And they can talk circles around you. Just so you know. 5
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 20 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. Shockingly uninformed Read the epistles. They are kind of important 2
pogi Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) On 6/17/2022 at 3:29 AM, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. Clearly, the church continued to exist. We believe that it continued without divine sanction and authority. The keys bestowed to Peter being lost. Hence the need for a restoration. Regarding the death of Joseph Smith, the apostles were not killed with Joseph and the keys were not lost. The keys and authority continue today via apostolic lineage. Edited June 18, 2022 by pogi 4
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 On 6/17/2022 at 6:33 AM, teddyaware said: If you are a Protestant, then you must believe there was a falling away of the church from the correct path established by Christ and the Apostles because that’s what Protestantism is all about — new nonCatholic churches were established by men who were protesting (thence the term PROTESTant) the fact that the Catholic Church had strayed from the truth and purity of the early Apostolic Church. But if it turns out that you are a believing, practicing, Catholic, I’ll respond to you again when you let me know that you are. Excellent point. Protestants and Catholics are both stuck with consubstantiality, which is totally unintelligible, AND Greek philosophy. The words "substance" and "nature" are totally undefinable and appear nowhere in the bible
teddyaware Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Excellent point. Protestants and Catholics are both stuck with consubstantiality, which is totally unintelligible, AND Greek philosophy. The words "substance" and "nature" are totally undefinable and appear nowhere in the bible I find it peculiar that Protestants decry our claim of an apostasy, yet the whole reason why their churches exist is because the Reformers fervently beloved the Catholic Church had irredeemably gone off the rails. If they really stopped to think about it they’d realize the only difference between their response to the apostasy and ours is that they think they “restored” the true Church hundreds of years before Joseph Smith did. 4
MikeFoxtrot Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 How would you go about determining whether the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament were still in operation today?
Metis_LDS Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said: How would you go about determining whether the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament were still in operation today? For myself only I assume that if we have the New Testament and the Lord's Apostles were not hunted down and were able to have an orderly transition to other Apostles and also Peter who was the head of the Church on earth. There would of been more writings (scriptures) for us to read now. As it is the book of revelations is thought to have surfaced around the year 96 CE. Edited June 18, 2022 by Metis_LDS grammar
Calm Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said: How would you go about determining whether the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament were still in operation today? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/04/signs-of-the-true-church?lang=eng Or perhaps you were talking to those not members on how they would know what they belonged to was the official church or part of it if it includes multiple denominations? Edited June 18, 2022 by Calm
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said: How would you go about determining whether the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament were still in operation today? Testimony But you will not believe that until you have had one. Best wishes, been there, done that Moroni 10: 3 + Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. Edited June 18, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
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