InCognitus Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 4 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said: How would you go about determining whether the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament were still in operation today? Given the wide variety of opinions of what "the official church instituted by Jesus in the New Testament" means, and the differing interpretations that people have of the teachings in the Bible, there is one and only one way that a question like that can be answered with any confidence: Ask God. God knows how to correctly interpret the Bible. God knows the right meaning of "the official church instituted by Jesus". I'm confident that he will point any sincere truth seeker in the right direction. 4
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 On 6/17/2022 at 6:35 AM, rpn said: When those who had been appropriately ordained to the priesthood died, there was no one left with authority to ordain anyone else to the priesthood. Therefore no one on earth with authority to act for our Heavenly Parents and Jesus. Thus no Church of Jesus Christ left on earth (eventually both in Europe and Middle East and on the American continent). Well the reasonable answer from a Catholic would be that the priesthood of the apostles and their authority did not die out, but was passed from generation to generation. The problem was that the Doctrine was changed, and errors were passed down, not the original priesthood, but stuff based on Greek philosophy.
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 7 hours ago, InCognitus said: God. God knows how to correctly interpret the Bible That's an odd thought. 🤨
Orthodox Christian Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 On 6/17/2022 at 2:35 PM, rpn said: When those who had been appropriately ordained to the priesthood died, there was no one left with authority to ordain anyone else to the priesthood. Therefore no one on earth with authority to act for our Heavenly Parents and Jesus. Thus no Church of Jesus Christ left on earth (eventually both in Europe and Middle East and on the American continent). Not true. The apostles passed on their authority to the bisishops that they ordained. If it were true that the authority given by Christ to the Apostles was only meant to be here whilst the Apostles lived, what would be the point of that? The Bible tells us that Christ is with us forever, and that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. And what of the Holy Spirit who came to the Church in His fullness at Pentecost? He is the power of the Church to survive anything. Did He go on a sabbatical till Joseph Smith showed up? The Orthodox and Catholic churches are Apostolic, the authority of the Apostles having been handed down (traditio) to those they ordained to (put under orders). Christ established His Church upon the foundation of the Apostles with Himself as its chief cornerstone. What would be the point of the great commission if the Church was only to last a generation? Did Christ set the Church up to fail, to disappear. No He did not! 2
SteelMagnoliainTexas Posted June 19, 2022 Author Posted June 19, 2022 18 hours ago, Calm said: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/04/signs-of-the-true-church?lang=eng Or perhaps you were talking to those not members on how they would know what they belonged to was the official church or part of it if it includes multiple denominations? There is no "official" church . The original members all knew they would die and if one really investigates this thoroughly you will find either through the original cannon of the scriptures or history like the Martyrs Mirror or Foxes book of Martyrs that the church did in fact exist well after the death of all the apostles and the orginal believers. And when I say there is no "official" church I mean denomination. It's to whoever believes and is baptised shall be saved and whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Yes there has been a falling away and it has happened and I think the LDS is part of that falling away . In other words I think your part of or have been part of the problem. I say this because y'all call yourself last days saints but for the most part so far all y'all want to discuss is one book. And just st now after my fourth some odd years of being a believer now finally are you even mentioning Jesus.
SteelMagnoliainTexas Posted June 19, 2022 Author Posted June 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: There is no "official" church . The original members all knew they would die and if one really investigates this thoroughly you will find either through the original cannon of the scriptures or history like the Martyrs Mirror or Foxes book of Martyrs that the church did in fact exist well after the death of all the apostles and the orginal believers. And when I say there is no "official" church I mean denomination. It's to whoever believes and is baptised shall be saved and whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Yes there has been a falling away and it has happened and I think the LDS is part of that falling away . In other words I think your part of or have been part of the problem. I say this because y'all call yourself last days saints but for the most part so far all y'all want to discuss is one book. And just st now after my fourth some odd years of being a believer now finally are you even mentioning Jesus. What I meant was fourty years....the phone types what I t want s to.
Teancum Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 On 6/17/2022 at 5:29 AM, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: I have been reading the Holy scriptures for 27 years and I see nothing about the chirch disappearing off the planet. When the apostles died it happened? Where does Jesus or the prophets or any old testament prophet say the church would die after the apostles? It's ludicrous!! If it would die off right after the death of the apostles it would certainly die off after this fellow Joseph Smith. But in fact it didn't cease exist that's why we have so much persecution pretty heavily if you took the time to research church history Rome for centuries was pretty violent towards the then church and how so if it does don't exist. Even when I was a believing Latter Day Saint it always seemed odd that God would send his Son, establish a church and then let it fall apart all in a matter of decades. Studies have led me to conclude there really were a number of competing orthodoxies and even the 12 apostles did not agree. Paul was constantly badgering those who did not agree with his vision of Christianity. Over time one group started to dominate and become proto Orthodox. That group eventually became Orthodox. Since then there are reformations and restoration all claiming either some misled doctrines or lost priesthood or both. It is a quagmire really. 4
Teancum Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 On 6/17/2022 at 9:33 AM, teddyaware said: If you are a Protestant, then you must believe there was a falling away of the church from the correct path established by Christ and the Apostles because that’s what Protestantism is all about — new nonCatholic churches were established by men who were protesting (thence the term PROTESTant) the fact that the Catholic Church had strayed from the truth and purity of the early Apostolic Church. But if it turns out that you are a believing, practicing, Catholic, I’ll respond to you again when you let me know that you are. Yet no protestants claimed a total apostasy.
Teancum Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 On 6/17/2022 at 9:35 AM, rpn said: When those who had been appropriately ordained to the priesthood died, there was no one left with authority to ordain anyone else to the priesthood. Therefore no one on earth with authority to act for our Heavenly Parents and Jesus. Thus no Church of Jesus Christ left on earth (eventually both in Europe and Middle East and on the American continent). A uniquely LDS position.
MikeFoxtrot Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 19 hours ago, Metis_LDS said: For myself only I assume that if we have the New Testament and the Lord's Apostles were not hunted down and were able to have an orderly transition to other Apostles and also Peter who was the head of the Church on earth. There would of been more writings (scriptures) for us to read now. As it is the book of revelations is thought to have surfaced around the year 96 CE. I’m sorry, but I don’t think I am clear on your answer. Are you saying more scripture would be needed to verify whether any church were the one true church, etc.? 19 hours ago, Calm said: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/04/signs-of-the-true-church?lang=eng Or perhaps you were talking to those not members on how they would know what they belonged to was the official church or part of it if it includes multiple denominations? I got the following: The official church of Jesus Christ will have members who call themselves saints instead of Christians, will be led by seers and revelators—who would also be necessary to know god’s choices for the other officers of the church, this prophet should also be the only person in charge of speaking with god about the direction the church should go; the church must be “of modern origin” (¿?), it will produce new scripture, and must have all these features to qualify. Is that a fair summary of the talk you shared, and do you agree with Mr. Peterson that these features are all present in the LDS church? 16 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Testimony But you will not believe that until you have had one. Best wishes, been there, done that Moroni 10: 3 + Are you saying I would need to believe in the one true church before I would know it were the one true church? 15 hours ago, InCognitus said: Given the wide variety of opinions of what "the official church instituted by Jesus in the New Testament" means, and the differing interpretations that people have of the teachings in the Bible, there is one and only one way that a question like that can be answered with any confidence: Ask God. God knows how to correctly interpret the Bible. God knows the right meaning of "the official church instituted by Jesus". I'm confident that he will point any sincere truth seeker in the right direction. When you say you’re confident that god will lead sincere truth-seekers to his one true church, does that mean that anyone not in the true church is therefore somehow insincere in their search?
teddyaware Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yet no protestants claimed a total apostasy. You’re making my point. The Reformers believed the Catholic Church was in a state of apostasy, which necessitated their attempts at the creation of new churches that they believed would restore Christianity to its purity. This means that if the Reformers had’t broken away from the Catholic Church and established what they individually believed were restorations of pure Christianity, then the only church remaining on earth would be one that was in apostasy. Protestantism is really a misnomer because true protesters would have remained in the Catholic Church and functioned as the loyal opposition, pushing for a reversion back to pure Christianity. But of course they couldn’t do that because the apostate Popes and Bishops would have had them killed, like the protesting multitudes who were exterminated by the apostate church before them. Edited June 19, 2022 by teddyaware
Metis_LDS Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 49 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said: I’m sorry, but I don’t think I am clear on your answer. Are you saying more scripture would be needed to verify whether any church were the one true church, etc.? What I meant is if the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament had continued longer than the original Apostles there should have been more scriptures than what is in the New Testament now. It is only a personal idea about how a common man like myself can test to see if thr church started by Jesus had operated beyond the original Apostles.
MikeFoxtrot Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Metis_LDS said: What I meant is if the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament had continued longer than the original Apostles there should have been more scriptures than what is in the New Testament now. Fellow common man here. Thank you for clarifying. If, hypothetically, some medieval scripture were discovered, would that lower your confidence in the great apostasy/restoration model?
MrShorty Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: What I meant is if the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament had continued longer than the original Apostles there should have been more scriptures than what is in the New Testament now. Might need to be careful with this line of reasoning. Apply it to the two main restorationist branches (Brighamite LDS and Community of Christ née RLDS), and one might find a bit of a problem where the Brighamite branch has only canonized four items (2 sections of the D&C and 2 Official Declarations) that are not tied directly to Joseph Smith, where CoC has continuously added to their Doctrine and Covenants (aren't they approaching section 200??).
Metis_LDS Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said: Fellow common man here. Thank you for clarifying. If, hypothetically, some medieval scripture were discovered, would that lower your confidence in the great apostasy/restoration model? If the providence of scriptures was firm then yes it would have to be examined. We know that John the Beloved still lives on the earth somewhere.
MikeFoxtrot Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: If the providence of scriptures was firm then yes it would have to be examined. We know that John the Beloved still lives on the earth somewhere. I’m immensely curious how you know that John the beloved still lives, but that’s a bit of a sidetrack, so I’ll resist. How would someone determine whether religious writings were scripture?
Metis_LDS Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 1 minute ago, MikeFoxtrot said: How would someone determine whether religious writings were scripture? Well again for myself there would have to be some overall reference to Jesus Christ.
MikeFoxtrot Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: Well again for myself there would have to be some overall reference to Jesus Christ. I presumed so. Is that the only qualifier?
Metis_LDS Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 1 minute ago, MikeFoxtrot said: I presumed so. Is that the only qualifier? Well the next hurdle would be does what it says remain in harmony with all the scriptures that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints already subscribes to.
MikeFoxtrot Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 27 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: Well the next hurdle would be does what it says remain in harmony with all the scriptures that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints already subscribes to. If a proposed scripture predates the latter-day church, it must still harmonize with modern teachings?
Metis_LDS Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 1 minute ago, MikeFoxtrot said: If a proposed scripture predates the latter-day church, it must still harmonize with modern teachings? Again for myself It cannot come into conflict with doctrine that has already been revealed in the scriptures.
MikeFoxtrot Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 7 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: Again for myself It cannot come into conflict with doctrine that has already been revealed in the scriptures. What would qualify as a conflict? For example, there are passages in the New Testament that seem, from my understanding, to conflict with commandments from the Old Testament.
Metis_LDS Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said: What would qualify as a conflict? For example, there are passages in the New Testament that seem, from my understanding, to conflict with commandments from the Old Testament. Again being a common man I follow the overall story of the scriptures. Old testament the creation, Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses and all the old testament prophets. I can see a type of progression there. The foretelling of a Messiah. Then the New Testament with the Messiah again I see progression. In progress old things can be overshadowed by the new but the overall pattern of leading to God should be discernible. Edited June 19, 2022 by Metis_LDS grammar
InCognitus Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 1 hour ago, MikeFoxtrot said: 17 hours ago, InCognitus said: Given the wide variety of opinions of what "the official church instituted by Jesus in the New Testament" means, and the differing interpretations that people have of the teachings in the Bible, there is one and only one way that a question like that can be answered with any confidence: Ask God. God knows how to correctly interpret the Bible. God knows the right meaning of "the official church instituted by Jesus". I'm confident that he will point any sincere truth seeker in the right direction. When you say you’re confident that god will lead sincere truth-seekers to his one true church, does that mean that anyone not in the true church is therefore somehow insincere in their search? I realize you were originally asking about how to determine whether the official church instituted by Jesus in The New Testament was still in operation today, but in my response I intentionally left out exactly where the sincere truth seeker would be led by asking God for guidance. God will lead humble and sincere truth seekers to go exactly where he wants them to be if they allow themselves to be led. Sometimes that may include serving others in places outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God directs people in other faiths to do great things in their own areas. So obviously, that does not mean that "anyone not in the true church is therefore somehow insincere in their search". Furthermore, your question also assumes that anyone not in the true church is actually "seeking". Most people in other faiths assume that they already have it right without doing any seeking or asking God. Some prefer to rely on their own intellect to figure things out on their own. Others tend to just follow what they have been taught, or just accept what their preacher tells them. Some rely on tradition. But honest, humble, and sincere people (of any faith) who ask God for direction in their quest for truth will receive direction from God on those matters, in one way or another. And they will be led to wherever God wants them to be. 1
juliann Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 4 hours ago, SteelMagnoliainTexas said: There is no "official" church . The original members all knew they would die and if one really investigates this thoroughly you will find either through the original cannon of the scriptures or history like the Martyrs Mirror or Foxes book of Martyrs that the church did in fact exist well after the death of all the apostles and the orginal believers. And when I say there is no "official" church I mean denomination. It's to whoever believes and is baptised shall be saved and whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Yes there has been a falling away and it has happened and I think the LDS is part of that falling away . In other words I think your part of or have been part of the problem. I say this because y'all call yourself last days saints but for the most part so far all y'all want to discuss is one book. And just st now after my fourth some odd years of being a believer now finally are you even mentioning Jesus. There never was an official church. What the heck do you read? The word church isn't even in the NT. It was a collection of sects, rather like today, until political force was used to force compliance. Eventually, denominations broke out. "Church" development looks much like an hourglass. As for merely "believing," that is not scriptural. Are you at all familiar with Paul? If you are claiming that you haven't heard Jesus for 4 years in the LDS church, BALONEY. Use the search function on LDS.org. and come back and claim that. Or, as we say here, CFR. Are you seriously claiming to have been LDS but have never listened to a General Conference? I love discussing the Bible. But if you aren't able to reference scholars who have given us the background information necessary to even begin to understand it, you aren't going to get much farther than your bad attitude on this board. 2
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