LDS.....the "only church" ? I beg to differ

[MikeFoxtrot]

29 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

…God will lead humble and sincere truth seekers to go exactly where he wants them to be if they allow themselves to be led.   Sometimes that may include serving others in places outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  God directs people in other faiths to do great things in their own areas.

So obviously, that does not mean that "anyone not in the true church is therefore somehow insincere in their search".  Furthermore, your question also assumes that anyone not in the true church is actually "seeking".  Most people in other faiths assume that they already have it right without doing any seeking or asking God.

…But honest, humble, and sincere people (of any faith) who ask God for direction in their quest for truth will receive direction from God on those matters, in one way or another.  And they will be led to wherever God wants them to be.

If god leads sincere petitioners to the place he wants them—which includes other religious systems—how could one determine whether their church is “the one true church” or even the most effective church in bringing about salvation?

[MikeFoxtrot]

37 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Again being a common man I follow the overall story of the scriptures. Old testament the creation, Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses and all the old testament prophets.  I can see a type of progression there.  The foretelling of a Messiah.  Then the New Testament with the Messiah again I see progression.  In progress old things can be overshadowed by the new but the overall pattern of leading to God should be discernible.

If modern scripture were written next year, which promoted something like eternal gay marriage or women holding the priesthood, would that be too much of a conflict for you to accept?

[Metis_LDS]

2 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

If modern scripture were written next year, which promoted something like eternal gay marriage or women holding the priesthood, would that be too much of a conflict for you to accept?

If the First Presidency of the Church back it that would be something I would strive to accept.

[MikeFoxtrot]

3 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

If the First Presidency of the Church back it that would be something I would strive to accept.

Do the first presidency of the church possess abilities for discerning true scripture that the rank and file members do not?

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

If god leads sincere petitioners to the place he wants them—which includes other religious systems—how could one determine whether their church is “the one true church” or even the most effective church in bringing about salvation?

Depends on what the person is seeking.  If they are specifically looking to know first, if there is "one true church", and then second, to be led to find the "one true church", then God will lead them that direction.

[Metis_LDS]

9 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Do the first presidency of the church possess abilities for discerning true scripture that the rank and file members do not?

I believe the First Presidency are living oracles of God (having had personal revelation to this effect).

You do not seem to be a member of the Church so I am giving you the shortest answer I can.

There is a process for accepting "new" scriptures into the Church,  but it basically starts with the First Presidency.

So the answer is on behalf of the Church yes.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Metis_LDS

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

You’re making my point. The Reformers believed the Catholic Church was in a state of apostasy, which necessitated their attempts at the creation of new churches that they believed would restore Christianity to its purity. This means that if the Reformers had’t broken away from the Catholic Church and established what they individually believed were restorations of pure Christianity, then the  only church remaining on earth would be one that was in apostasy.

Protestantism is really a misnomer because true protesters would have remained in the Catholic Church and functioned as the loyal opposition, pushing for a reversion back to pure Christianity. But of course they couldn’t do that because the apostate Popes and Bishops would have had them killed, like the protesting multitudes who were exterminated by the apostate church before them.

You are simply putting your LDS spin on things. I doubt any protestants would agree with your attempt to justify a restoration like the Mormonism claims.

[MikeFoxtrot]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Depends on what the person is seeking.  If they are specifically looking to know first, if there is "one true church", and then second, to be led to find the "one true church", then God will lead them that direction.

If someone sincerely prays to know if there is one true church and sincerely prays to be led to find the one true church, would god ever lead them to another church?

[Metis_LDS]

1 hour ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Do the first presidency of the church possess abilities for discerning true scripture that the rank and file members do not?

It was good conversing with you, I am leaving on a trip tomorrow for 5 days.  I can't stand typing on my phone so I hope to converse with again later.

[MikeFoxtrot]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

You do not seem to be a member of the Church so I am giving you the shortest answer I can.

This was a baffling caveat, but I appreciate the time you’ve taken to respond thus far. 

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

There is a process for accepting "new" scriptures into the Church,  but it basically starts with the First Presidency.

So the answer is on behalf of the Church yes.

How would you know if the first presidency were incorrect in their assessment of scripture?

[MikeFoxtrot]

2 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

It was good conversing with you, I am leaving on a trip tomorrow for 5 days.  I can't stand typing on my phone so I hope to converse with again later.

Have a safe trip. I’ll have unlimited questions when you return. 

[Vanguard]

15 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

If someone sincerely prays to know if there is one true church and sincerely prays to be led to find the one true church, would god ever lead them to another church?

Do you mean would God ever allow them to follow the dictates of their own conscience? IMO, absolutely.

[teddyaware]

51 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You are simply putting your LDS spin on things. I doubt any protestants would agree with your attempt to justify a restoration like the Mormonism claims.

You must know in your heart my argument is very strong. Do you really think a Church that slaughtered and tortured multitudes for righteously exercising their God given freedom of conscience wasn’t in a state of total apostasy? 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

If someone sincerely prays to know if there is one true church and sincerely prays to be led to find the one true church, would god ever lead them to another church?

That's not my call.  Only God can answer that one, and it would depend on circumstances and many other factors.  However, there are many reasons why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one church authorized by the Lord, and the most important of those reasons is that he is the one who established it through divine revelation.   

[manol]

6 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

If, hypothetically, some medieval scripture were discovered, would that lower your confidence in the great apostasy/restoration model?

My personal views are not remotely representative of the LDS church's views.  Medieval writings which arguably qualify as "scripture" could cause me to re-think my own understanding as far as the great apostasy/restoration model. 

Elsewhere you asked:  "If someone sincerely prays to know if there is one true church and sincerely prays to be led to find the one true church, would god ever lead them to another church?"

I think God would lead the sincere seeker towards whatever would best serve their progression, and that might not (and probably would not) be the same answer for every seeker.  It seems to me that God is more likely to only "tell" us what the next step on our journey ought to be.

Edited June 19, 2022 by manol

[MikeFoxtrot]

4 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Do you mean would God ever allow them to follow the dictates of their own conscience? IMO, absolutely.

Sorry, are you saying that god leads people by allowing them to be lead by the dictates of their own conscience? Doesn’t that render god redundant?

[MikeFoxtrot]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

That's not my call.  Only God can answer that one, and it would depend on circumstances and many other factors.  However, there are many reasons why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one church authorized by the Lord, and the most important of those reasons is that he is the one who established it through divine revelation.   

I’d presume that you also think membership in the one true church is important. Wouldn’t that make the answer to prayers to god for the one true church more likely to lead to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, juliann said:

There never was an official church. What the heck do you read? The word church isn't even in the NT. It was a collection of sects, rather like today, until political force was used to force compliance. Eventually, denominations broke out. "Church" development looks much like an hourglass. 

As for merely "believing," that is not scriptural. Are you at all familiar with Paul? 

If you are claiming that you haven't heard Jesus for 4 years in the LDS church, BALONEY. Use the search function on LDS.org. and come back and claim that. Or, as we say here, CFR.  Are you seriously claiming to have been LDS but have never listened to a General Conference? 

I love discussing the Bible. But if you aren't able to reference scholars who have given us the background information necessary to even begin to understand it, you aren't going to get much farther than your bad attitude on this board.  

Agree-  I have no clue where he gets this stuff and yet he speaks as if he is an expert.  Very frustrating.  It is as if he is speaking about the Catholic belief in flying saucers and how it deters from Jesus or something.   It's a very bizarre hodge-podge of beliefs he is attacking, none of which are ours.

[MikeFoxtrot]

1 hour ago, manol said:

…Medieval writings which arguably qualify as "scripture" could cause me to re-think my own understanding as far as the great apostasy/restoration model.

…I think God would lead the sincere seeker towards whatever would best serve their progression, and that might not (and probably would not) be the same answer for every seeker.  It seems to me that God is more likely to only "tell" us what the next step on our journey ought to be.

Thanks for your response.

Per the medieval writings, what would qualify a text as scripture for you?

As for the sincere seeker response, how might being led to a false religion serve someone’s progression better than the one true church?

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Sorry, are you saying that god leads people by allowing them to be lead by the dictates of their own conscience? Doesn’t that render god redundant?

And so why do you worship YOUR version of God?   What is it based on?  Blind obedience that the gospel is "true" or that all the history of how it was put together was totally infallible?

How could you possibly know that?....... unless you had some guidance from God and "dictates of your own conscience"?

How do you know it is wrong to steal, and murder for gain?

Dictates of your own conscience or because some Book hodge-podged together in the dark ages tells you it is God's word?

How do you know it is God's word?   Because it says it is??

You might well know by "the dictates of your own conscience" which therefore "makes God redudant?"

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Thanks for your response.

Per the medieval writings, what would qualify a text as scripture for you?

As for the sincere seeker response, how might being led to a false religion serve someone’s progression better than the one true church?

And how do YOU decide what is true or false?  It seems you can throw out questions but answer none.   And what would be a "true" religion?   Or none?

Perhaps you are an atheist?

How do you know there IS NO God?   What is the basis of your epistemology about such things?

Discussions MUST be two- way or it is just a rant.   If that is what you are about, write your 20 page thesis and be done with it.  What is even the point of being here if you do not want to DISCUSS anything?

We have legitimate answers for every question if you just tell us what "language game" you are speaking

[MikeFoxtrot]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And so why do you worship YOUR version of God?   What is it based on?  Blind obedience that the gospel is "true" or that all the history of how it was put together was totally infallible?

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I don’t usually consider anything I do “worship,” and I haven’t found any reasons to believe that any gods exist. I also don’t believe in blind obedience or recommend it to others. 

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How could you possibly know that?....... unless you had some guidance from God and "dictates of your own conscience"?

I am familiar with how a conscience works, but the concept of guidance from god still seems unfounded. 

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How do you know it is wrong to steal, and murder for gain?

Because the thought of doing them makes me feel icky. 

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Dictates of your own conscience or because some Book hodge-podged together in the dark ages tells you it is God's word?

My understanding is that there was more than hodge-podging involved with the canonization process, but that certainly is a silly image. 

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How do you know it is God's word?   Because it says it is??

You might well know by "the dictates of your own conscience" which therefore "makes God redudant?"

I have read several texts considered to be scripture, and I have thus far not found anything that indicates it was inspired by anything more intelligent than a human brain could conceive. 

[MikeFoxtrot]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And how do YOU decide what is true or false?  It seems you can throw out questions but answer none.   And what would be a "true" religion?   Or none?

I’m happy to answer questions, but I don’t think I’ve been asked until now. Glad someone got fired up enough to do it all at once. 

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Perhaps you are an atheist?

Among other things. I’m also a plumber, I like long walks in the desert with my dog, jumping into water, and gardening. 

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How do you know there IS NO God?   What is the basis of your epistemology about such things?

I have found no convincing evidence for any of the gods that I’ve investigated. If I were to become convinced, I’d happily admit it. 

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Discussions MUST be two- way or it is just a rant.   If that is what you are about, write your 20 page thesis and be done with it.  What is even the point of being here if you do not want to DISCUSS anything?

We’ve only just met, so I think you might be thinking of someone else. I’m happy to discuss anything you feel like discussing, but I’m getting a bit of a gatekeeper vibe, so maybe chill on that front, unless I’m breaking board rules

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We have legitimate answers for every question if you just tell us what "language game" you are speaking

I’m probably not well-versed enough in philosophy to ask questions of anyone who accuses others of speaking a language game, but I’ll try to keep up.

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I’d presume that you also think membership in the one true church is important. Wouldn’t that make the answer to prayers to god for the one true church more likely to lead to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?

That statement of the "one true church" is out of context used the way you do so above.   We also believe there is some truth in all churches.   The correct quote is that we are the "TRUE and LIVING church"

That means that our Canon is open to change with the times and that it is based on revelation.   Essentially it is not a statement that every possible truth has been revealed- it is in fact an admission that all has NOT been revealed!   There are many things yet to be revealed about the end times, and our further ability to progress that will only be made known when we are ready to hear it.

 

[MikeFoxtrot]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That statement of the "one true church" is out of context used the way you do so above.   We also believe there is some truth in all churches.   The correct quote is that we are the "TRUE and LIVING church"

That means that our Canon is open to change with the times and that it is based on revelation.   Essentially it is not a statement that every possible truth has been revealed- it is in fact an admission that all has NOT been revealed!   There are many things yet to be revealed about the end times, and our further ability to progress that will only be made known when we are ready to hear it.

 

Sorry. I’ll rephrase the question. 
 

Wouldn’t that make the answer to prayers to god for the only true and living church more likely to lead to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints