LDS.....the "only church" ? I beg to differ

[MikeFoxtrot]

28 minutes ago, manol said:

My understanding is that the story was not in the earliest texts but apparently had been around for a while, just not in any of the gospels, before it started showing up in copies of the gospel of John.  It seems in-character to me.  The foremost question in my mind is, does it teach a true principle?  I think it does, but could possibly be persuaded otherwise. 

I consulted the oracle (Google) and it looks to me like everybody agrees the story was not originally part of the gospel of John.  From there, arguments on whether to include it seem to bifurcate into those who believe in a forgiving Jesus (the story is authentic but was left out of the early gospels for some reason) versus those who believe in a by-the-law Jesus (the story was not in the original and is not authentic and should not be used).  I'm not neutral; I fall into the former category, so I'm inclined to look for excuses to keep it.  But that's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

Perhaps I’ve asked and forgotten, but how would you define “scripture?” It seems like you’re using the term to mean something along the lines of a text being remarkably poignant and/or pragmatic, and it seems you take the source to be less important, as long as the principle itself resonantes. It seems to me that no god is necessary for scripture in this model. Just curious how you package that idea. 

28 minutes ago, manol said:

Some of my "evidences" are indeed subtle, others too far-fetched and/or improbable for inclusion here, and none are direct evidence for God.  At best they imply "something", maybe even "Something", but other conclusions could be drawn.

Are the other conclusions just as likely to be true?

28 minutes ago, manol said:

Why?  Why would there be a little voice in me that cares about how I perceive and/or treat other people, especially if it calls upon me to do things that are ostensibly not in my own best interest?  I THINK that whatever wants me to "do good" or "be good" is "of God".  At any rate, it seems to be worth listening to; something inside me feels "properly aligned" or "at peace" or "filled with positive energy" when I do.

I blame evolution for making all of these weird, domesticated apes into a highly social species. There were alternatives that would have probably resulted in fewer humans, and much, much, much less ecological devastation, but we can’t unring that bell. 

28 minutes ago, manol said:

Let me pause here and say that I'm NOT convinced that this little weather-vane is ALWAYS steering me towards something that is objectively true.

Is it accurate enough to be deemed reliable?

28 minutes ago, manol said:

 Anyway let me do a sample weather-vane. You asked me about the Tao te Ching….

I really like your thought process, Manol. 

28 minutes ago, manol said:

"If you open yourself to the Tao, you and Tao become one."  So now the "oneness/as if it were your self" concept is extrapolated to the Divine.  I'm not yet able to wrap my head around this... I think it might be related to the "I am the vine, ye are the branches" concept Jesus taught, which likewise I have a hard time wrapping my head around.  So, something to aspire to understanding some day.

I take this to mean something like muscle memory. I play guitar, and for the first couple of years, I had to be very deliberate in my finger-placement, strum pattern, etc., but over time, my hands could find their own place on the guitar, and we sort of became one. I didn’t have to make the decision to bunch my corn dog-esque fingers onto certain frets, because that movement just became a part of my subconscious, in a way. I think this works with principles like being polite, sow to anger, helpful to strangers, and so on. You may have to think about it, but with a healthy prefrontal cortex and a desire to try, it becomes your nature. 

28 minutes ago, manol said:

So I fall short of offering evidence for God, but that process is evidence to me that there is something (or Something) that wants me to go towards what seems to me to be "light".  Whether it is actually internal or external I don't know, nor do I think the exact geography matters.

I think it matter to me, because the existence of such a being would affect everything I say I know about the universe. If a universally applicable being exists, I want to learn everything I can about it. If there is no reliable method for discerning whether or not it exists, then I am open to the idea, but I wouldn’t start relying on the notion until I were confident there is a “there” there. There.

[manol]

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Perhaps I’ve asked and forgotten, but how would you define “scripture?” It seems like you’re using the term to mean something along the lines of a text being remarkably poignant and/or pragmatic, and it seems you take the source to be less important, as long as the principle itself resonantes. It seems to me that no god is necessary for scripture in this model. Just curious how you package that idea. 

Good call - I have been using the term loosely.  If I were talking to an LDS audience, "scripture" would mean "texts that have been formally included in the canon of the LDS church".  If I'm speaking for myself personally, I don't really use that word to describe writings which I believe convey valuable (in this context) concepts, but I have been using it that way in this conversation between you and me.  I should give some thought to coming up with better wording.  

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Are the other conclusions just as likely to be true?

I don't know... could well be; I don't claim mine is the only valid one, but relative "likelihood" is something I don't know. 

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I blame evolution for making all of these weird, domesticated apes into a highly social species.

Hoot-hoot!  [and no flinging of poo]

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Is it accurate enough to be deemed reliable?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  And you can ALWAYS make course-corrections; they are virtually inevitable in my opinion.

(And for me at least, both my reasoning mind and my weather-vane must have veto power, to hopefully keep me from driving off a moral or practicality cliff.  But it's much less of an internal conflict than that might imply.)

I've got a scripture about course-correction around here somewhere... ah yes... from the Fourth book of Zeppelin, Chapter 4, Verse 7: 

"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on"

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I really like your thought process, Manol. 

Thank you.  If something somewhere along the way "rang true" or "tasted good" or otherwise gave a positive indication on your detectors, THAT'S IT!!  Not necessarily the specific thing, but the "getting a thumbs-up from your detectors" part.  That's the flashlight that shows you where the next stepping-stone on the obscured pathway is. 

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I take this to mean something like muscle memory. I play guitar, and for the first couple of years, I had to be very deliberate in my finger-placement, strum pattern, etc., but over time, my hands could find their own place on the guitar, and we sort of became one. I didn’t have to make the decision to bunch my corn dog-esque fingers onto certain frets, because that movement just became a part of my subconscious, in a way. I think this works with principles like being polite, sow to anger, helpful to strangers, and so on. You may have to think about it, but with a healthy prefrontal cortex and a desire to try, it becomes your nature. 

That could very well be!   Whatever works for you - I am not at all convinced that we need to be using the same models.  That would be like me saying we must all agree on what kind of cheese the moon is made out of. 

2 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I think it matter to me, because the existence of such a being would affect everything I say I know about the universe. If a universally applicable being exists, I want to learn everything I can about it. If there is no reliable method for discerning whether or not it exists, then I am open to the idea, but I wouldn’t start relying on the notion until I were confident there is a “there” there. There.

The part in bold - it doesn't work that way.  The DOING precedes the CONFIDENCE IN.  You gotta give it a totally sincere best-possible-chance shot.  

Curiosity precedes Desire.  Desire precedes Intention.  Intention precedes Doing.  Doing precedes Confidence In.  And Confidence In precedes Knowing.

I don't know WHY it's set up this way, seems highly inefficient, but as far as I can tell it is.  Maybe evolution/God/the Tao wants us domesticated apes to learn something of value thereby.  Or maybe there simply is no other way to reliably arrive at Confidence In, if you're staring from Disbelief/Zero Confidence. 

You have to risk letting or deliberately directing your thought processes to go unimpeded down the road you want to know about, without riding the brakes, while paying attention how it affects you.  If the road ends up not taking you where you want to be, or is obviously not doing so even when you've given it a totally fair chance, THEN you make your course-corrections (4th Zeppelin 4:7). 

In my opinion. 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by manol

[MikeFoxtrot]

5 hours ago, manol said:

And for me at least, both my reasoning mind and my weather-vane must have veto power, to hopefully keep me from driving off a moral or practicality cliff.  But it's much less of an internal conflict than that might imply.

I suppose it must work that way. Are these two vetoing powers equal in their influence?

5 hours ago, manol said:

I've got a scripture about course-correction around here somewhere... ah yes... from the Fourth book of Zeppelin, Chapter 4, Verse 7: 

"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on"

This is one of the two Zeppelin verses that I quoted in my mission farewell. 

 

5 hours ago, manol said:

The part in bold - it doesn't work that way.  The DOING precedes the CONFIDENCE IN.  You gotta give it a totally sincere best-possible-chance shot.  

Curiosity precedes Desire.  Desire precedes Intention.  Intention precedes Doing.  Doing precedes Confidence In.  And Confidence In precedes Knowing.

I have tried several methods to raise my confidence in the existence of a god. I have only made the situation more skeptical. I do love talking about it, though.
 

[manol]

28 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I suppose it must work that way. Are these two vetoing powers equal in their influence?

I think so. 

28 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

This is one of the two Zeppelin verses that I quoted in my mission farewell. 

Cool!  What was the other one?

28 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I have tried several methods to raise my confidence in the existence of a god. I have only made the situation more skeptical. I do love talking about it, though.

Good for you for giving it a shot!

I suspect you bring a great deal of "light" into your space, into your interactions with people, into their lives.  Who cares whether or not you use religious nomenclature? 

[MikeFoxtrot]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Cool!  What was the other one?

Context: I had been called to the foreign shores of Idaho, which, and I think we can all agree here, is bottom of the barrel in terms of mission call excitement.

My talk closer was, to use your vernacular, from Zeppelin 5:1, only with a customization, of sorts. It went, “California sunlight, sweet Calcutta rain, Idaho potatoes, the song remains the same.”

[bluebell]

On 6/24/2022 at 7:14 PM, MikeFoxtrot said:

So, if you were praying for guidance in an issue for which your conscience has already weighed in. What does a “god agrees” sound like?

 

It depends.  When asking God for guidance, it's good to do all you can to make your own decision and then go to God to let Him know what you've decided to do and see what He thinks about it.

Sometimes it is really difficult to tell the difference between me and God.  If the difference doesn't matter (if what I've decided to do is good) then I don't usually sweat it. 

Sometimes it's really hard to separate my wants from God's answers because I'm very invested in one choice.  That one I still struggle with often. Often, when I know I really want to do something or want one thing to occur, I don't even bother to ask Him for guidance because I know I'm probably not going to be invested in following His answer.  I'm working on getting better at that. 

When God and I differ from each other in general though, my decision just feels wrong.  It's hard to describe it but it feels....anxious maybe?  Precarious?  There is no feeling of peace or calm about it.  The decision feels off.  Like it's suddenly not the best choice when I sincerely believed it was a viable option before.

Quote

What does your “conscience” sound like to you?

Like me only better.   

Quote

 

Sorry to have muddled it. Here’s my attempt:

Apart from these divine messages, do you know of other external entities that are able to inject thoughts, feelings, and notions directly into human minds?

 

Yes, in my belief system there are those who wish us ill who can also inject thoughts, feelings, and notions to us, or influence us for evil.  The whole "angel and devil on the shoulder" kind of thing.

But most people (most of the time) don't have trouble telling the angel and the devil a part.  The problem isn't usually getting one confused with the other.  The problem is that knowing an influence isn't for the best doesn't always stop us from listening to it anyway.

Most of us know we are making a bad or hurtful decision when we make it.  In the moment we just don't care.

[MikeFoxtrot]

59 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, in my belief system there are those who wish us ill who can also inject thoughts, feelings, and notions to us, or influence us for evil.  The whole "angel and devil on the shoulder" kind of thing.

But most people (most of the time) don't have trouble telling the angel and the devil a part.  The problem isn't usually getting one confused with the other.  The problem is that knowing an influence isn't for the best doesn't always stop us from listening to it anyway.

Most of us know we are making a bad or hurtful decision when we make it.  In the moment we just don't care.

And is there a reliable method for discerning your conscience from messages sent from the proverbial devil on your shoulder?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

And is there a reliable method for discerning your conscience from messages sent from the proverbial devil on your shoulder?

If by reliable you mean foolproof, then no.  Nothing is foolproof for us humans.  If by reliable you mean works most of the time, then yes.  Practice, faith, and obedience to God is a reliable method for discerning His communication with you.

[manol]

17 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Context: I had been called to the foreign shores of Idaho, which, and I think we can all agree here, is bottom of the barrel in terms of mission call excitement.

My talk closer was, to use your vernacular, from Zeppelin 5:1, only with a customization, of sorts. It went, “California sunlight, sweet Calcutta rain, Idaho potatoes, the song remains the same.”

Ha!  I lived in southern Idaho for a while.  I remember these teen-agers picking up trash in a park.  Turns out they were serving their community service sentences.   Their crime?  Prank phone calls.

I knew this other kid who was given a speeding ticket for doing 30 MPH in a 25 MPH zone... on his bicycle.  Yeah.

And I got pulled over for "suspicious activity" because I slowed down once in the middle of the night in front of my place of business because I could see lights on and people inside (it turned out to be construction work by the building owner). 

Amazing what passes for "criminal activity" in a town starved for excitement.

20 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I have tried several methods to raise my confidence in the existence of a god. I have only made the situation more skeptical. I do love talking about it, though.

If you "love talking about it", then hopefully you won't mind a few more questions...

Where and how did serving a mission fit into the path that led you to being an atheist?

Would "agnostic" be more accurate?

If you are comfortable with describing your path, I'm interested in hearing about it.

What are some of the arguments against the existence of a god that you find particularly compelling?  You don't have to explain them in detail. 

What sorts of things would it take to "raise your confidence" in the existence of a god?

Edited June 26, 2022 by manol

[MikeFoxtrot]

50 minutes ago, manol said:

Where and how did serving a mission fit into the path that led you to being an atheist?

I served a mission in hopes of solidifying my testimony. I prayed, fasted, worked, ministered, preached, and did anything I was told would help invite spiritual experiences. I had a lot of fun, I had some success in teaching, and I had some great discussions with a wide variety of people, but I was still missing that confirmation.

50 minutes ago, manol said:

Would "agnostic" be more accurate?

I say atheist because I don’t currently believe that any gods exist. If pressed, I would claim to be an agnostic atheist. I also would have called myself an agnostic theist. Gnosis can be hard to come by. I’m also happy to flip flop on this issue if the existence of a god somehow becomes apparent to me.

50 minutes ago, manol said:

If you are comfortable with describing your path, I'm interested in hearing about it.

So, I joined the church at 10 (part-member family), after my mom’s side of the family brought it up a few times. I was active in church from that time until I was about 30. I tried reconciling my lack of spiritual experiences for years, but eventually, I admitted to myself that it wasn’t working. It was a tough road, and had I known that I would have ended up an atheist at the end of it, I honestly would have probably just  studied morality instead. 

50 minutes ago, manol said:

What are some of the arguments against the existence of a god that you find particularly compelling?

If you haven’t picked it up from the above answers, divine hidden-ness is a big one. Another major factor is that god offers no explanatory power when I study the universe. I’ve also noticed that many believers seem to worship a god who just so happens to agree with them on things like human rights, morality, racism, etc.—no matter what those stances might be. That, to me, seems to be an indicator that these gods are internal mental functions. The problem of evil has iterations that are also convincing. 

50 minutes ago, manol said:

What sorts of things would it take to "raise your confidence" in the existence of a god?

I mentioned having a conversation with god. Some others may include seeing some of the sights and sounds depicted in canonized scriptures. Prophets calling on god to light wet wood on fire, seeing god on my way to Damascus, someone successfully praying to a specific god for my grandparents to return from the dead, being suddenly able to translate reformed Egyptian from ancient American gold plates. You know: subtle stuff. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I’ve also noticed that many believers seem to worship a god who just so happens to agree with them on things like human rights, morality, racism, etc.

But perhaps they came to those beliefs as a result of their worship of God who inspired them to change rather than them imagining a God who fits their ideas.

If you run into someone who believes God doesn’t hold the same ideals they do, how does that fit into your belief system (you said “many”, not “all”)?

[MikeFoxtrot]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

But perhaps they came to those beliefs as a result of their worship of God who inspired them to change rather than them imagining a God who fits their ideas.

The kicker is that pro-life believers and pro-choice believers use the same methods to determine the position their god holds, and they find contradictory gods. That makes me question the methods, as well as their findings. 

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you run into someone who believes God doesn’t hold the same ideals they do, how does that fit into your belief system (you said “many”, not “all”)?

I said many because I don’t have actual numbers, just my experience. Thus, I couch. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

 

I said many because I don’t have actual numbers, just my experience. Thus, I couch. 

I don’t believe my current understanding of morality matches God’s and I know I must be wrong in many areas as I have a weird, inconsistent mix of idealistic and practical beliefs (for example, very early abortion seems more practical and loving to me than allowing a child to have to come into a horrible life situation, but I accept it as a very real possibility that perhaps I don’t have enough respect for the value of any life as a gift of God).  The only way I will come to a better understanding of God is to seek him and constantly question my understanding.  How does someone who views God in the way I do fit into your paradigm?

My views of what is required of us have also changed dramatically over time as my perception of amount of the limitations that exist in mortality have changed. How does people’s changing views of God fit into your belief about others’ views of God? 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Calm

[MikeFoxtrot]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t believe my current understanding of morality matches God’s and I know I must be wrong in many areas as I have a weird, inconsistent mix of idealistic and practical beliefs (for example, very early abortion seems more practical and loving to me than allowing a child to have to come into a horrible life situation, but I accept it as a very real possibility that perhaps I don’t have enough respect for the value of any life as a gift of God).  The only way I will come to a better understanding of God is to seek him and constantly question my understanding.

How do you know that you are mistaken, and not god?

2 hours ago, Calm said:

How does someone who views God in the way I do fit into your paradigm?

If there are people who believe in a god with whom they disagree about morality, then I’m more inclined to listen to them on the topic. As I said elsewhere, I get a kick out of nuance.

2 hours ago, Calm said:

My views of what is required of us have also changed dramatically over time as my perception of amount of the limitations that exist in mortality have changed. How does people’s changing views of God fit into your belief about others’ views of God? 

I would expect people to change their views on god over time, because I think most god concepts reflect a mixture of a person’s culture, reflexive emotional responses, and an ingrained desire for there to be an established hierarchy.

 

[manol]

18 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I served a mission in hopes of solidifying my testimony. I prayed, fasted, worked, ministered, preached, and did anything I was told would help invite spiritual experiences. I had a lot of fun, I had some success in teaching, and I had some great discussions with a wide variety of people, but I was still missing that confirmation.

I say atheist because I don’t currently believe that any gods exist. If pressed, I would claim to be an agnostic atheist. I also would have called myself an agnostic theist. Gnosis can be hard to come by. I’m also happy to flip flop on this issue if the existence of a god somehow becomes apparent to me.

So, I joined the church at 10 (part-member family), after my mom’s side of the family brought it up a few times. I was active in church from that time until I was about 30. I tried reconciling my lack of spiritual experiences for years, but eventually, I admitted to myself that it wasn’t working. It was a tough road, and had I known that I would have ended up an atheist at the end of it, I honestly would have probably just studied morality instead. 

 Thank you for filling in your back-story.  I'm not going to knock you for seeing more value in morality than in religion!  One of the things I enjoy about my current "cafeteria" approach is that I'm not obligated to go along with (and perhaps even defend) teachings and policies that don't feel right to me.  And I am free to "color outside the lines" if I so choose. 

18 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

If you haven’t picked it up from the above answers, divine hidden-ness is a big one. Another major factor is that god offers no explanatory power when I study the universe. I’ve also noticed that many believers seem to worship a god who just so happens to agree with them on things like human rights, morality, racism, etc.—no matter what those stances might be. That, to me, seems to be an indicator that these gods are internal mental functions. The problem of evil has iterations that are also convincing. 

Regarding "divine hidden-ness"... is it possible that making his/her/its/their existence obvious is NOT something God thinks is a good idea?  Like that episode of Futurama where the bacteria or whatever on Bender evolve into sentient little creatures and eventually annihilate one another... this clip starts out post-apocalypse:

Futurama - Godfellas - YouTube

And I agree with your observations about how convenient it is for God's opinions to mirror our own.  My favorite is that you can tell you're on the right path when you hate the same people God does.  Yeah.

Regarding whether the concept of God offers an explanation necessary in order for the universe to make sense... well probably not.  It seems to me that there is, at a minimum, a "benevolent bias" to the physical universe, which proves nothing. 

18 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I mentioned having a conversation with god. Some others may include seeing some of the sights and sounds depicted in canonized scriptures. Prophets calling on god to light wet wood on fire, seeing god on my way to Damascus, someone successfully praying to a specific god for my grandparents to return from the dead, being suddenly able to translate reformed Egyptian from ancient American gold plates. You know: subtle stuff. 

"Subtle stuff."  Ha! 

This probably won't come as a big surprise to you:  Delivering on that kinda stuff is above my pay grade.

But... what if this life is a completely convincing virtual-reality experience, so immersive we each think we are the character we "play" as?  What if we are actually perfectly safe, what if neither apparent injustices nor their consequences persist beyond this virtual world, what if those who seem to be our enemies are actually our friends in disguise?  And what if every now and then a teacher is sent into this virtual world to convey what looks like an illogical radical morality given our current context, but which actually makes perfect sense when viewed from that vastly greater hidden reality we came from?

Yeah I know thought experiments prove nothing.  This is just me having fun with this topic too!

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by manol

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

How do you know that you are mistaken, and not god?

I figure he has got me way beat for experience and knowledge. Just makes more sense since my little, narrow world view is missing some crucial info, like what the heck is the big picture. 

[MikeFoxtrot]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I figure he has got me way beat for experience and knowledge. Just makes more sense since my little, narrow world view is missing some crucial info, like what the heck is the big picture. 

Couldn’t morality be based upon something other than experience and knowledge? You could just be more compassionate than god. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Couldn’t morality be based upon something other than experience and knowledge? You could just be more compassionate than god. 

I think compassion has to do a lot with experience and that suggests he has had the opportunity to develop that more as well. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

I mentioned having a conversation with god. Some others may include seeing some of the sights and sounds depicted in canonized scriptures. Prophets calling on god to light wet wood on fire, seeing god on my way to Damascus, someone successfully praying to a specific god for my grandparents to return from the dead, being suddenly able to translate reformed Egyptian from ancient American gold plates. You know: subtle stuff. 

It sounds like you, I, and Joseph Smith are all on the same page here: 'If I had not experienced what I have, I should not have believed it myself'.

[MikeFoxtrot]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I think compassion has to do a lot with experience and that suggests he has had the opportunity to develop that more as well. 

Would you say there is ample evidence that god is compassionate of the human struggle? Because my reading of the scriptures has shown me a god who doesn’t mind killing a baby or two every now and again to make his points.

[MikeFoxtrot]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It sounds like you, I, and Joseph Smith are all on the same page here: 'If I had not experienced what I have, I should not have believed it myself'.

Seems so. I certainly don’t believe anyone’s claims that conflict with my understanding of the universe unless the evidence for those claims is strong enough to convince me I was previously mistaken or ignorant.

[Hamba Tuhan]

16 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Seems so. I certainly don’t believe anyone’s claims that conflict with my understanding of the universe unless the evidence for those claims is strong enough to convince me I was previously mistaken or ignorant.

And I cannot long believe in things that I haven't experienced for myself.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[manol]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It sounds like you, I, and Joseph Smith are all on the same page here: 'If I had not experienced what I have, I should not have believed it myself'.

 

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And I cannot long believe in things that I haven't experienced for myself.

What have you experienced, if you don't mind telling us? 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Would you say there is ample evidence that god is compassionate of the human struggle? Because my reading of the scriptures has shown me a god who doesn’t mind killing a baby or two every now and again to make his points.

If I thought scripture was not filtered through the men that wrote it, I would have a very difficult time accepting that God was loving and compassionate. Even looking around the world, I have no clue why there couldn’t be less (what appears to me to be senseless) pain.  I guess what it comes down to is I had good parents who I could trust loved me as they proved it over and over again, I have had some weird experiences of prayers being answered immediately (as in getting up from my knees and hearing a knock on the door) that to me make sense someone acted for me even though the majority of my prayers yield no change in my life plus I have always felt a caring presence aware of me (which I understand could be my brain looking for ways to comfort itself)…put together I extrapolate to a God, add in my religious beliefs that make sense to me that we have existed for eternity…then my reason tells me an advanced being that an eternity ago reached a level where they could continue to progress to more powerful abilities, either on their own or with others like them, would have resolved issues of boredom.  If it is possible to achieve advancement while being cruel and still capable of being entertained by torturIng lower beings, cruel beings likely would have been destroyed by other advanced cruel beings.  Therefore eternal advanced beings are either neutral or loving and since I believe I have experienced God’s care, I assume he is loving in an advanced way that is beyond what mortals are capable of, including being able to endure the pain of watching trillions of loved ones suffer in order to be ultimately benefitted (as a parent allows their children to have surgery for a better life).

But I have a huge amount of questions of why and how it all works to ask him.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, manol said:

What have you experienced, if you don't mind telling us? 

How many months do you have???

Despite being a long list, it's all pretty standard stuff that comes when one fully embraces the Restoration: tongues, prophecy, revelations, visions, healings, the interpretation of tongues, angelic ministrations, answers to prayers, temple experiences, etc.