Plural marriage, the priesthood, and exaltation

[TheTanakas]

I have a few questions about D&C 132:61-63.

Why are virgin females the focus of plural marriage? (v. 61).  Is 10 an ideal number of wives
or just a maximum? (v. 62).  Why is polygamy necessary for exaltation? (v. 63).  

Pete

[webbles]

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

I have a few questions about D&C 132:61-63.

Why are virgin females the focus of plural marriage? (v. 61).  Is 10 an ideal number of wives
or just a maximum? (v. 62).  Why is polygamy necessary for exaltation? (v. 63).  

Pete

10 is just a number that is more than 1.  It isn't ideal nor maximum nor minimum.

v63 doesn't say that polygamy is necessary for exaltation.

[Teancum]

23 minutes ago, webbles said:

10 is just a number that is more than 1.  It isn't ideal nor maximum nor minimum.

v63 doesn't say that polygamy is necessary for exaltation.

But early LDS leaders taught it was.

[webbles]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

But early LDS leaders taught it was.

They taught that verse 63 says that polygamy was required for exaltation?  I'd like to see where they said that.

[teddyaware]

12 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I have a few questions about D&C 132:61-63.

Why are virgin females the focus of plural marriage? (v. 61).  Is 10 an ideal number of wives
or just a maximum? (v. 62).  Why is polygamy necessary for exaltation? (v. 63).  

Pete

If it turns out there are more women worthy of the fulness celestial glory than men (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried women will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the men in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one wife.

In LDS theology, the essential prerequisite (aside from personal worthiness) needed in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory is to be married to a worthy member of the opposite sex ‘for time and all eternity.’ Under these conditions (more worthy women than worthy men), polygamous marriages will be the only way for God to be able to keep his immutable promises made to those unmarried women who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory.

And it follows that if at any of the men in the celestial kingdom are unwilling to take on more than one wife, if called upon by God to do so, they will loose their exaltation because of their unwillingness to bless worthy unmarried women with the marital relationships they need in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory God promised them.

This would indicate that men who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one women if they are called upon by God to do so. This also indicates that any man who hopes to gain the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one woman or they will not be deemed worthy of the fulness of celestial glory. In other words, any man unwilling to enable God to keep his most sacred and sublime promises to his daughters is not worthy of the highest degree of celestial glory.

Bottom line? Ever man who inherits the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom must at least be a willing polygamist in spirit, having decided beforehand that he will be a polygamist if called upon God to marry more than one of his worthy daughters. But it also follows that, for whatever reason,  there may very well be some worthy men who will have but one wife in heaven. 
 

Edited December 5, 2021 by teddyaware

[Olmec Donald]

46 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

If it turns out there are more women worthy of the fulness celestial glory than men (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried women will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the men in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one wife.

And if it turns out that there are more men worthy of the fulness of celestial glory than women (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried men will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the women in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one husband.

Would you be as okay with polyandry as you are with polygyny?  

Would you be as willing to share your wife with other husbands as you are willing for her to share you with other wives? 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Peacefully]

4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

And if it turns out that there are more men worthy of the fulness of celestial glory than women (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried men will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the women in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one husband.

Would you be as okay with polyandry as you are with polygyny?  

Would you be as willing to share your wife with other husbands as you are willing for her to share you with other wives? 

You took the words right out of my mouth! I can’t wait for the answer:)

Edited December 5, 2021 by Peacefully

[MustardSeed]

 

12 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

You took the words right out of my mouth! I can’t wait for the answer:)

And mine.  I think we all know that answer . 

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

And if it turns out that there are more men worthy of the fulness of celestial glory than women (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried men will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the women in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one husband.

Would you be as okay with polyandry as you are with polygyny?  

Would you be as willing to share your wife with other husbands as you are willing for her to share you with other wives? 

As if I didn’t anticipate the above retort?  Procreation (a continuation of the seeds forever and ever) is the supreme object of eternal marriage. And since a woman can be made pregnant by only one man at a time, your scenario makes no logical sense. And beside, Doctrine and Covenants 132 (the only canonized revelation we have on the subject) speaks only of the plurality of wives. And further, there’s no example in the scriptures of any of the Lord’s people, at any time in sacred history, when polyandry was practiced, only polygyny.

The preponderance of the scriptural evidence is wholly on my side, with nary a scintilla of scriptural evidence to back your scenario. And remember, unless there are going to be exactly the same number of exalted men as exalted women in heaven, polygyny will be needed in order to fulfill the Lord’s promises of ‘’eternal increase’ to his faithful daughters. You can moan and groan about it all you want, but you have to know in your heart that the scriptures and reason are on my side.

By the way, glorified celestial beings — who are endowed  to ultimate fulness with all the divine attributes of the Father and the Son — don’t think, feel or act like lascivious fallen mortal human beings. This is why plural marriage is successfully practiced in heaven, and why the God of perfect love, mercy and justice is able to command and endorse it.

Edited December 5, 2021 by teddyaware

[CA Steve]

21 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

And since a woman can be made pregnant by only one man at a time, your scenario makes no logical sense

Wrong.

[teddyaware]

24 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Wrong.

Then I amend my remarks by saying that if there are more exalted men in heaven than exalted women, that polyandry might very well be permitted in order for God to keep his promises of eternal increase to his worthy sons.. Because celestial beings aren’t lascivious and afflicted by earthly jealousies, there should be no problem if polyandry is needed in order for God to keep his promise of the continuation of the seeds for all his exalted sons and daughters. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

And if it turns out that there are more men worthy of the fulness of celestial glory than women (something I consider to be likely),

Can you elaborate on this and why you feel it is likely?

I don't understand the idea that women are more spiritual than men in general, nor the idea that men are more spiritual than women. I think we are probably pretty equal in that regard.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I have a few questions about D&C 132:61-63.

Why are virgin females the focus of plural marriage? (v. 61).  Is 10 an ideal number of wives
or just a maximum? (v. 62).  Why is polygamy necessary for exaltation? (v. 63).  

Pete

"Virgin" refers to spiritual willingness to keep the restored covenants from baptism onward. !0 is for instructional purposes. Keeping any authorized assignment is necessary for exaltation.

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Can you elaborate on this and why you feel it is likely?

I don't understand the idea that women are more spiritual than men in general, nor the idea that men are more spiritual than women. I think we are probably pretty equal in that regard.

Clearly men are more spiritual than women, how else can we explain the dominance men have in Mormonism? God is a He, prophets are almost always men, all LDS leadership with any actual power are men and women are relegated to the passenger seat when it comes to the priesthood.

(in case it is not obvious, the first sentence above is sarcasm.)

Edited December 5, 2021 by CA Steve

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, teddyaware said:

If it turns out there are more women worthy of the fulness celestial glory than men (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried women will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the men in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one wife.

In LDS theology, the essential prerequisite (aside from personal worthiness) needed in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory is to be married to a worthy member of the opposite sex ‘for time and all eternity.’ Under these conditions (more worthy women than worthy men), polygamous marriages will be the only way for God to be able to keep his immutable promises made to those unmarried women who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory.

And it follows that if at any of the men in the celestial kingdom are unwilling to take on more than one wife, if called upon by God to do so, they will loose their exaltation because of their unwillingness to bless worthy unmarried women with the marital relationships they need in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory God promised them.

This would indicate that men who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one women if they are called upon by God to do so. This also indicates that any man who hopes to gain the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one woman or they will not be deemed worthy of the fulness of celestial glory. In other words, any man unwilling to enable God to keep his most sacred and sublime promises to his daughters is not worthy of the highest degree of celestial glory.

Bottom line? Ever man who inherits the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom must at least be a willing polygamist in spirit, having decided beforehand that he will be a polygamist if called upon God to marry more than one of his worthy daughters. But it also follows that, for whatever reason,  there may very well be some worthy men who will have but one wife in heaven. 
 

I think you have clearly and lucidly explained (in a few words) the LDS theology about life in the celestial glory and the core principles of exaltation for eternity.

Just stating a point of view, and meaning no offense by it, I also believe that the vast majority of non-LDS folks in the world would simply shake their heads in disbelief at your explanation and that rational reasonable folks would or could believe such a doctrine. That may be why it is not taught to investigators prior to commitment to baptism and membership. It is also why folks are directed to the Book of Mormon and not the D&C prior to baptism. Am I correct in asserting that none of what you have explained is contained in the Book of Mormon? Are missionaries encouraged to share this doctrine with candidates? In my fifth year of faithful attendance in an LDS ward, I have never heard what you described above in a sacrament service, Sunday school (gospel doctrine), or an elder's quorum. Of course I have never been in a Women's Relief Society meeting, so I don't know if it is taught there. I will have to ask my wife. Even I, a friend of almost all things LDS, shake my head in disbelief at this vision of eternity. Jacob 2 in the BOM is my standard! 

Even the church seminary study manual for seminary teaching which I believe is limited to members, clearly warns in the study of this issue - "Do not speculate about whether plural marriage is a requirement for the celestial kingdom. We have no knowledge that plural marriage will be a requirement for exaltation."   You seem to be implying that the "willingness" for the same is what is necessary for exaltation, not the fact of living it eternally. I appreciate what you wrote, its clarity and from my limited knowledge, its accuracy, but I am still shaking my head!

Edited December 6, 2021 by Navidad

[Fether]

8 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

And if it turns out that there are more men worthy of the fulness of celestial glory than women (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried men will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the women in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one husband.

Would you be as okay with polyandry as you are with polygyny?  

Would you be as willing to share your wife with other husbands as you are willing for her to share you with other wives? 

 

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

If it turns out there are more women worthy of the fulness celestial glory than men (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried women will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the men in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one wife.

In LDS theology, the essential prerequisite (aside from personal worthiness) needed in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory is to be married to a worthy member of the opposite sex ‘for time and all eternity.’ Under these conditions (more worthy women than worthy men), polygamous marriages will be the only way for God to be able to keep his immutable promises made to those unmarried women who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory.

And it follows that if at any of the men in the celestial kingdom are unwilling to take on more than one wife, if called upon by God to do so, they will loose their exaltation because of their unwillingness to bless worthy unmarried women with the marital relationships they need in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory God promised them.

This would indicate that men who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one women if they are called upon by God to do so. This also indicates that any man who hopes to gain the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one woman or they will not be deemed worthy of the fulness of celestial glory. In other words, any man unwilling to enable God to keep his most sacred and sublime promises to his daughters is not worthy of the highest degree of celestial glory.

Bottom line? Ever man who inherits the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom must at least be a willing polygamist in spirit, having decided beforehand that he will be a polygamist if called upon God to marry more than one of his worthy daughters. But it also follows that, for whatever reason,  there may very well be some worthy men who will have but one wife in heaven. 
 

I would propose the third scenario:

We won’t be bound by our round of creation to find an eternal companion. God has made infinite worlds and we can choose between any celestial kingdom worthy partner. And should there be more of one gender than another, we can wait for another round of creation to finish up.

I would also add, on earth today there is more of one gender than the other… but we aren’t contemplating plural marriage or any sort. Why? Because it takes a long time to find someone you love.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it were the same  in The celestial kingdom

Edited December 5, 2021 by Fether

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Can you elaborate on this and why you feel it is likely?

I don't understand the idea that women are more spiritual than men in general, nor the idea that men are more spiritual than women. I think we are probably pretty equal in that regard.

It's not that women are more spiritual; it's just more likely that there are more of them than men. What are the odds that there will be exactly the  same number of men as women who are eligible to be exalted? I see it as a numbers thing rather than degree of spirituality. 

The idea that we are "sharing" spouses is something that I think will not come into play there. There will be no jealousy or sense of selfishness among exalted beings. 
All will be happy to participate in whatever type of unions exist in the Celestial Kingdom because they are following God's commands and love all beings that are there.

[kimpearson]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

If it turns out there are more women worthy of the fulness celestial glory than men (something I consider to be likely), then the only way worthy unmarried women will be able to enjoy the fulness of the celestial glory they were promised is for some of the men in the celestial kingdom to be married to more than one wife.

In LDS theology, the essential prerequisite (aside from personal worthiness) needed in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory is to be married to a worthy member of the opposite sex ‘for time and all eternity.’ Under these conditions (more worthy women than worthy men), polygamous marriages will be the only way for God to be able to keep his immutable promises made to those unmarried women who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory.

And it follows that if at any of the men in the celestial kingdom are unwilling to take on more than one wife, if called upon by God to do so, they will loose their exaltation because of their unwillingness to bless worthy unmarried women with the marital relationships they need in order to enjoy the fulness of celestial glory God promised them.

This would indicate that men who are worthy of the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one women if they are called upon by God to do so. This also indicates that any man who hopes to gain the fulness of celestial glory must at least be willing to be married to more than one woman or they will not be deemed worthy of the fulness of celestial glory. In other words, any man unwilling to enable God to keep his most sacred and sublime promises to his daughters is not worthy of the highest degree of celestial glory.

Bottom line? Ever man who inherits the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom must at least be a willing polygamist in spirit, having decided beforehand that he will be a polygamist if called upon God to marry more than one of his worthy daughters. But it also follows that, for whatever reason,  there may very well be some worthy men who will have but one wife in heaven. 
 

Most experts believe 60 to 90 billion people have lived on the earth.  30% to 50% of those died before the age of 1.  Our theology firmly teaches all those folks, 18 to 45 billion will go to the Celestial kingdom.  5 to 7 million children die each year currently before the age of 5.  How many members of Christ's church has there been?  I will be generous and say 200 million.    200 million divided by 18 billion is 1.1%.  Please explain to me how you consider it likely there will be more women than men in the celestial kingdom?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Clearly men are more spiritual than women, how else can we explain the dominance men have in Mormonism? God is a He, prophets are almost always men, all LDS leadership with any actual power are men and women are relegated to the passenger seat when it comes to the priesthood.

(in case it is not obvious, the first sentence above is sarcasm.)

Given Olmec’s views expressed in other places, that doesn’t seem like something he would believe. Hopefully he can clarify. 

[JAHS]

16 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Most experts believe 60 to 90 billion people have lived on the earth.  30% to 50% of those died before the age of 1.  Our theology firmly teaches all those folks, 18 to 45 billion will go to the Celestial kingdom.  5 to 7 million children die each year currently before the age of 5.  How many members of Christ's church has there been?  I will be generous and say 200 million.    200 million divided by 18 billion is 1.1%.  Please explain to me how you consider it likely there will be more women than men in the celestial kingdom?

Those are big numbers. There is still the issue of having exactly the same number of males and females that are exalted.  In a 2011 study the total Church membership consisted of 90 males for every 100 females.
Of course this says nothing about the billions that died as children and we would have to know the numbers of male and female that number represents. 

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Would you be as willing to share your wife with other husbands as you are willing for her to share you with other wives? 

I like to think so.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Can you elaborate on this and why you feel it is likely?

I don't understand the idea that women are more spiritual than men in general, nor the idea that men are more spiritual than women. I think we are probably pretty equal in that regard.

I assume he is just thinking of the numbers. There are more males born than females and this has been so except in cultures where they have been willing to abort female fetuses to ensure they have a son if only allowed one child or otherwise prefer sons. There are more males who die before the age of eight unless a culture practices infanticide in order to limit the number of daughters or there is a tendency to have greater neglect of or other inequalities for daughters.  Therefore it is reasonable to assume that there will be more males in the CK than females unless some other variable shifts those numbers. 
 

https://ourworldindata.org/gender-ratio#summary

Edited December 5, 2021 by Calm

[katherine the great]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Can you elaborate on this and why you feel it is likely?

I don't understand the idea that women are more spiritual than men in general, nor the idea that men are more spiritual than women. I think we are probably pretty equal in that regard.

I think he is just inverting the scenario to show the absurdity of the claim.

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, webbles said:

They taught that verse 63 says that polygamy was required for exaltation?  I'd like to see where they said that.

No.  I think you know what my point was.  The early LDS leaders taught polygamy was required for exaltation.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

It's not that women are more spiritual; it's just more likely that there are more of them than men.

Why is it more likely?

Quote

What are the odds that there will be exactly the  same number of men as women who are eligible to be exalted? I see it as a numbers thing rather than degree of spirituality.

Considering that Heavenly Father will never be done having children (at least, that is what is implied in our doctrine), there won't ever be a time when we have a final number of exalted beings to pair up, will there be? 

Quote

The idea that we are "sharing" spouses is something that I think will not come into play there. There will be no jealousy or sense of selfishness among exalted beings. 
All will be happy to participate in whatever type of unions exist in the Celestial Kingdom because they are following God's commands and love all beings that are there.

Likely true, but if someone said to you that you will be homosexual in the Celestial kingdom but that spending eternity being romantically linked to a man shouldn't bother you because everyone will be following God's commands and love all beings that are there, that probably doesn't really make the idea of it any better.